Tyranid Death star unit

[Spacefrisian]

Had a game with my SW against a Nid player with this unit in it, and i was wondering if i should have taken on that unit.

 

It was said that it was a nasty unit to face but in that battle it killed only 2 Blood Claws and Ulrik. He didnt dare going for Ragnar as he was standing in cover with a bonus of 7 attack on top of his normal attacks (killing gaunts is easy).

[Brother Nathan]

nids have a few nasty things so unless your more specific then we cant helps ya...

[Skirax]

What is the Deathstar? (Nid terms, don't be sarcy :))

[Hear da Lamentation]

The deathstar I am used to facing is as follows.

 

deathstar consists of Hive Tyrant (boneswords, lashwhip) 2 Tyrant Guard (boneswords) and a Tyranid Prime HQ (boneswords, lashwhip) - plus some nasty psychic effects. In effect this unit gets 16 attacks (20 on charge) WS6 with re-rolls, Str 5&6, no save, insta kill if fail morale check (on 3d6) - you fight at initiative 1. Has Toughness 6, 12 wounds (with decent allocation) and 3+ save

 

In my opinion, even in cover, you may have taken it out ... but it would have massacred Ragnar and the unit he was with in the same attack.

 

I would love to hear otherwise, but the only 2 tactics I can think of with this beast of a marine killing unit is

1. Ignore it and keep the hell away from it. It is slow moving, so possible to avoid

2. Throw absolutely everything you have at it all at the same time.

 

(For info, I have shot this unit with 30 missile launchers (over the course of 3 turns) and half of it was still alive at the end of it)

[Grimtooth]

The deathstar I am used to facing is as follows.

 

deathstar consists of Hive Tyrant (boneswords, lashwhip) 2 Tyrant Guard (boneswords) and a Tyranid Prime HQ (boneswords, lashwhip) - plus some nasty psychic effects. In effect this unit gets 16 attacks (20 on charge) WS6 with re-rolls, Str 5&6, no save, insta kill if fail morale check (on 3d6) - you fight at initiative 1. Has Toughness 6, 12 wounds (with decent allocation) and 3+ save

 

In my opinion, even in cover, you may have taken it out ... but it would have massacred Ragnar and the unit he was with in the same attack.

 

I would love to hear otherwise, but the only 2 tactics I can think of with this beast of a marine killing unit is

1. Ignore it and keep the hell away from it. It is slow moving, so possible to avoid

2. Throw absolutely everything you have at it all at the same time.

 

(For info, I have shot this unit with 30 missile launchers (over the course of 3 turns) and half of it was still alive at the end of it)

 

Why are you taking morale checks with 3d6?

[Brother Nihm]

The deathstar I am used to facing is as follows.

 

deathstar consists of Hive Tyrant (boneswords, lashwhip) 2 Tyrant Guard (boneswords) and a Tyranid Prime HQ (boneswords, lashwhip) - plus some nasty psychic effects. In effect this unit gets 16 attacks (20 on charge) WS6 with re-rolls, Str 5&6, no save, insta kill if fail morale check (on 3d6) - you fight at initiative 1. Has Toughness 6, 12 wounds (with decent allocation) and 3+ save

 

In my opinion, even in cover, you may have taken it out ... but it would have massacred Ragnar and the unit he was with in the same attack.

 

I would love to hear otherwise, but the only 2 tactics I can think of with this beast of a marine killing unit is

1. Ignore it and keep the hell away from it. It is slow moving, so possible to avoid

2. Throw absolutely everything you have at it all at the same time.

 

(For info, I have shot this unit with 30 missile launchers (over the course of 3 turns) and half of it was still alive at the end of it)

 

Why are you taking morale checks with 3d6?

You aren't, you are taking a Leadership test on 3d6 to prevent death. Boneswords act as souped up Force Weapons.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Isn't Jaws of the Wolf World a perfect answer to this?

[Grimtooth]

The deathstar I am used to facing is as follows.

 

deathstar consists of Hive Tyrant (boneswords, lashwhip) 2 Tyrant Guard (boneswords) and a Tyranid Prime HQ (boneswords, lashwhip) - plus some nasty psychic effects. In effect this unit gets 16 attacks (20 on charge) WS6 with re-rolls, Str 5&6, no save, insta kill if fail morale check (on 3d6) - you fight at initiative 1. Has Toughness 6, 12 wounds (with decent allocation) and 3+ save

 

In my opinion, even in cover, you may have taken it out ... but it would have massacred Ragnar and the unit he was with in the same attack.

 

I would love to hear otherwise, but the only 2 tactics I can think of with this beast of a marine killing unit is

1. Ignore it and keep the hell away from it. It is slow moving, so possible to avoid

2. Throw absolutely everything you have at it all at the same time.

 

(For info, I have shot this unit with 30 missile launchers (over the course of 3 turns) and half of it was still alive at the end of it)

 

Why are you taking morale checks with 3d6?

You aren't, you are taking a Leadership test on 3d6 to prevent death. Boneswords act as souped up Force Weapons.

 

I was referencing Hear da Lame's that he is forced to check his, "morale" on 3d6. I will even ask you why it is 3d6 on the Leadership? As far as I was aware, it is 2d6 when checking for Leadership against a bonesword. The onlyh time it bumps up to 3d6 is when it is a psychic test and that is only when in range of Shadow of the Warp.

[Wispy]

Can IC's (Niddy Prime) hang out with MC's (Hive Tyrant)? I don't think they can - units of 1 and all. Unless the Tyrant Guard allows this? Something's up.

[the jeske]

and can 2 sw characters sit in the same unit of GH ? its the same . the prime does not join the tyrant it joins the guard unit that just happens to to have a hive or swarm lord inside too.

 

As how to kill. well the same SW are killing us always . the unit is slow , so it eats those LF RL each turn , even with cover and the good old wound alocation trick there will be wounds on the unit . rhino walls stop them for a turn . a turn of being double taped by plasma and hit by RL from LF offten leaves them short on wounds[but not dead per se] . problem is then we have to charge and suddenly we find out opponents in cover and now even lash whips means we do a simulatous fight. even if we do win this offten means there is not much left of the "death star"[which sadly dont work for nids at all, they are just too small. now if they could all have wings ....].

[Grey Mage]

The deathstar I am used to facing is as follows.

 

deathstar consists of Hive Tyrant (boneswords, lashwhip) 2 Tyrant Guard (boneswords) and a Tyranid Prime HQ (boneswords, lashwhip) - plus some nasty psychic effects. In effect this unit gets 16 attacks (20 on charge) WS6 with re-rolls, Str 5&6, no save, insta kill if fail morale check (on 3d6) - you fight at initiative 1. Has Toughness 6, 12 wounds (with decent allocation) and 3+ save

 

In my opinion, even in cover, you may have taken it out ... but it would have massacred Ragnar and the unit he was with in the same attack.

 

I would love to hear otherwise, but the only 2 tactics I can think of with this beast of a marine killing unit is

1. Ignore it and keep the hell away from it. It is slow moving, so possible to avoid

2. Throw absolutely everything you have at it all at the same time.

 

(For info, I have shot this unit with 30 missile launchers (over the course of 3 turns) and half of it was still alive at the end of it)

 

Why are you taking morale checks with 3d6?

You aren't, you are taking a Leadership test on 3d6 to prevent death. Boneswords act as souped up Force Weapons.

 

I was referencing Hear da Lame's that he is forced to check his, "morale" on 3d6. I will even ask you why it is 3d6 on the Leadership? As far as I was aware, it is 2d6 when checking for Leadership against a bonesword. The onlyh time it bumps up to 3d6 is when it is a psychic test and that is only when in range of Shadow of the Warp.

If you have two boneswords its 3d6.

[Brother Nihm]

The deathstar I am used to facing is as follows.

 

deathstar consists of Hive Tyrant (boneswords, lashwhip) 2 Tyrant Guard (boneswords) and a Tyranid Prime HQ (boneswords, lashwhip) - plus some nasty psychic effects. In effect this unit gets 16 attacks (20 on charge) WS6 with re-rolls, Str 5&6, no save, insta kill if fail morale check (on 3d6) - you fight at initiative 1. Has Toughness 6, 12 wounds (with decent allocation) and 3+ save

 

In my opinion, even in cover, you may have taken it out ... but it would have massacred Ragnar and the unit he was with in the same attack.

 

I would love to hear otherwise, but the only 2 tactics I can think of with this beast of a marine killing unit is

1. Ignore it and keep the hell away from it. It is slow moving, so possible to avoid

2. Throw absolutely everything you have at it all at the same time.

 

(For info, I have shot this unit with 30 missile launchers (over the course of 3 turns) and half of it was still alive at the end of it)

 

Why are you taking morale checks with 3d6?

You aren't, you are taking a Leadership test on 3d6 to prevent death. Boneswords act as souped up Force Weapons.

 

I was referencing Hear da Lame's that he is forced to check his, "morale" on 3d6. I will even ask you why it is 3d6 on the Leadership? As far as I was aware, it is 2d6 when checking for Leadership against a bonesword. The onlyh time it bumps up to 3d6 is when it is a psychic test and that is only when in range of Shadow of the Warp.

If you have two boneswords its 3d6.

This.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Indeed - yes, sorry it isn't a "morale" check, it is a leadership check. But 2 boneswords means you do it on 3d6.

 

Can IC's (Niddy Prime) hang out with MC's (Hive Tyrant)? I don't think they can - units of 1 and all. Unless the Tyrant Guard allows this? Something's up.

As The Jeske said, the "unit" is the Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard. This is then joined by the Independant Character Tyranid Prime. (for extra "umpf" you can swop the Hive Tyrant for Swarm Lord.)

 

The cover thing is really good against this unit - this is why I think Murderous Hurricaine is so great against them (slows them down a little as well.)

 

JoWW doesn't massively affect this unit because they have high initiative (5 I think.)

[Voltaire]

Rifle dreds and Plazerbacks can effectivelly kill this unit, just kill hammer it to death and you'll be fine. JOW would help, however the Tyrants going to laugh at you if you rely on that to kill him.

 

 

Before he eats your head that is... :)

[Wispy]

Okay.

 

 

Well, this Deathstar has to walk to get into CC, so if you can well position a chooser of the slain, simple cast Murderous Hurricane on that unit over and over and watch it struggle to get cross the board (if your Rune Priest is in a Rhino, no worries about SotW).

 

If he still actually gets in range, use a healthy amount of autocannons and plasma guns to blow him away.

[Grimtooth]

Murderous Hurricane has a 18" range doesn't? Which means his Shadow of the Warp will have you testing on 3d6 the entire time you are trying to cast it. While it is great at slowing down most units, you could really just be peril of warping yourself to death.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Perils of the warp is 12" range, so you can just pull off a MH outside his range.

<To be honest, when I play my Nid mate I have a house rule that the perils affects units inside vehicles because (for me) that was a ridiculous ruling by GW ... clearly all things like SotW effect units in vehicles. Certainly our runestaff does. (Probably one for another discussion though.)>

 

Well, this Deathstar has to walk to get into CC, so if you can well position a chooser of the slain, simple cast Murderous Hurricane on that unit over and over and watch it struggle to get cross the board (if your Rune Priest is in a Rhino, no worries about SotW).

 

This is my feeling as well, but getting within 18" of the deathstar is dangerous. He is going to have other units which could pop your vehicle, leaving its contents nicely ready for the deathstar unit to eat next round. But basically I think this sort of tactic is the achilles heel of the deathstar. Fast moving troops hitting it and running, wearing it down with missile and psycher. The top priority for me when facing this unit is to take out the Nids vehicle popping units like the Guard and Xenothropes, so you can keep your speed advantage. (Bikers are great for this too.)

[breng77]

Shadow in the warp has 12" range. SO at 18" you would be fine, or you could be in a vehicle because shadow in the warp won't effect you if you are in a vehicle. It is not an easy squad to take out as it has a 3+ save, (usually 2+ on the tryrant) and loads of wounds (2 per guard, 3 on the prime and 4 on the Tyrant) then it runs behind a guant screen to get a 4+ cover save. It is slow though so if you can stay away from it or speed bump it with small squads this unit won't make back its points (500 pts about)

[minigun762]

I know this might seem weird, but what about Dreadnoughts?

 

All those fancy Boneswords do nothing against armor and if I remember right, the Tyrant is the only unit to count as an MC. Its a risk to be sure, but that unit has to be eating up a fair number of points and with a lucky swing the Dread can insta-pop the Prime.

 

That or the typical response of 3x Vindicators, if the gant screen is close enough you could even target the tail end of the gants and hope for a drift into the Deathstar without giving them a cover save (I think it would work that way at least...)

[breng77]

The problem with the dread is that it would be going last. So the Tyrant would hit him and do some damage before he gets to strike back (if he gets to strike back). So if you lose your DCCW you won't do much at all. The issue dealing with this squad is the rest of the tyranid army. If you shoot say 15 Missiles from long fangs into it you will do some damage, and eventually kill the unit (though if there is a tervigon near by the unit could also have FNP) You are generally better off killing everything else first as the deathstar cannot win most games (it could win KPs, I guess)

[Zynk Kaladin]

That or the typical response of 3x Vindicators, if the gant screen is close enough you could even target the tail end of the gants and hope for a drift into the Deathstar without giving them a cover save (I think it would work that way at least...)

 

Heh. Problem is that he could just myadic (sp?) spore in some throwaway zoanthropes and blow up your vindis. This happened to me last week and I was forced to lose a kill point game because I had nothing to deal with the giant mass of death. This left much of my army unsupported and he just waltzed in and ate me.

 

As an addendum to this thread, how would you deal with the spore zoanthropes and deathstars?

[minigun762]

You are both correct, though I think the Vindicator might be the best way to kill off the Prime early so he can't be used a regen wound dump for the rest of the squad.

 

There is always the annoying Rhino wall tactic. Rush up some Rhinos to block his movement, he'll have to eat the Rhinos which have moved 6"+ so he's only hitting on 6's. You could do the same thing with a Land Raider Redeemer and use PotMS to hit his unit with that big template each turn. Wounding on 3's/4's with no save and insta-hit will help.

[Brother Nathan]

that nid unit...its not exactly the best the nids have available to them. it has to walk all the way over... thunderhammer and storm sheild termies? and dont forget eho gets hit as hey drop to initive 1 next round too... infact... lone wolf with thunderhammer andstormsheild, if it wounds one of them then jaws it! failing that, how aboutthunderowolves, all with stormsheild and the leader with hammer. and of course the usual vindis, misiles etc. dont forget that this unit has no inv save so ignoring its armour really hurts it!as long as you kill it...

[Zynk Kaladin]

Actually, that's a good point about thunderhammers that I completely forgot. Initiative 1 would help. Stacked with jaws? Now that sounds fun.

 

My typhoons have been keeping me barely alive. Maybe now it's time for me to acquire some TH/SS termies. Though I don't play space wolves, thanks for the help.

[Hear da Lamentation]

The issue dealing with this squad is the rest of the tyranid army. If you shoot say 15 Missiles from long fangs into it you will do some damage, and eventually kill the unit (though if there is a tervigon near by the unit could also have FNP) You are generally better off killing everything else first as the deathstar cannot win most games (it could win KPs, I guess)

 

I totally agree with this post. You can kill it with shooting, but I dont think it is a good idea at the start. You need to go for the squishy stuff first. (Plus if it is an objective game and he has 1,2 or god forbid 3 Tervagons ... you need to hit them quick and hard)

 

One question which came up there ...

If you hit something with a TH and therefore reduce it's initiative to 1 for next round ... does this count towards the Jaws roll? I didnt think so ... just that you happened to fight at initiative 1. (I.e. if you have a powerfist you fight at initiative 1, but you wouldnt count as having initiative 1 for Jaws.) Also - you will be in combat anyway, so you won't be able to use the Jaws.