Tyranid Death star unit

[Voltaire]

I totally agree with this post. You can kill it with shooting, but I dont think it is a good idea at the start. You need to go for the squishy stuff first. (Plus if it is an objective game and he has 1,2 or god forbid 3 Tervagons ... you need to hit them quick and hard)

 

One question which came up there ...

If you hit something with a TH and therefore reduce it's initiative to 1 for next round ... does this count towards the Jaws roll? I didnt think so ... just that you happened to fight at initiative 1. (I.e. if you have a powerfist you fight at initiative 1, but you wouldnt count as having initiative 1 for Jaws.) Also - you will be in combat anyway, so you won't be able to use the Jaws.

 

I agree shooting wont kill everything, however seeing as were spacewolves I think it'll get them nice and soft for some wolves to chew on. Shoot it, wound it, walk up, kill it. Thats how you fight nids.

 

Also don't thunderhammers stun the units they hit and make them I1 ? Wouldn't that effect JAWs? If so imagine an evil laugh akin to a super villain. It has a deep timber that seems to shake the room as it revibrates about; that'll be me in a library. On Armageddon...

[Grimtooth]

Models suffering unsaved wounds by a thunderhammer have their iniative reduced to 1. The rule does not specify close combat nor does I say only for close combat. The duration of the lowered iniative also indicates that it carries through to other phases.

 

A powerfist specifies attacks are made at iniative 1.

 

So based on those observations, JAWS would be tested at iniative 1 if the models in questioned had suffered unsaved wounds to a thunderhammer.

[breng77]

The TH into Jaws is hard to pull off though, as you need to have 1 of 2 things happen.

 

1.) Your Squad lives to hit with the TH, runs and is not caught, or is caught and fails no retreat saves, so the Deathstar is no longer locked in combat.

 

2.) There is another unit in line with the target, so that the line happens to cross the units locked in combat.

 

This is because you cannot target a squad locked in CC with Jaws. If the TH dies, this won't work so he has to survive until I 1, He has to Hit, wound, and lose combat, fail leadership, run, and not get caught by a squad with , higher I, or fail enough 2+ armor saves (3+ if you put a TH on a PA wolf guard), for the squad to die off.

[DV8]

The Initiative drop from a Thunder Hammer does apply, but it's actually far trickier than you think combo-ing it with Jaws for the following reasons:

 

1. The Initiative drop only lasts until the end of the next combat phase. So if you charge in your turn, survive, and manage to put a wound or two in to stun one of them (remember wound allocation, you'd have to have a LOT of Thunder Hammers to put enough wounds to stun every last one of them), the Tyranids are only Initiative 1 for the assault phase in their turn. When your turn rolls around again, they are back to their default Initiative.

 

2. As you have to hit them with Jaws (a shooting attack, which is made before Assault), combined with the fact that the Thunder Hammer Initiative drop only applies for a single round of combat, you actually have to charge them and survive two rounds of combat (without running or dieing), and put enough wounds on the unit to stun every last one of them (or let them charge you, survive the one round, put enough wounds to stun them, and then...)

 

3. Assuming you survive the necessary assault phases, one of two things needs to happen. Either whatever you had locked in combat dies/breaks, leaving the Tyranids open for shooting, or there so happens to be an enemy unit in range and LoS (remember the first unit Jaws hits counts as the "target" for shooting purposes, so it HAS to be an eligible unit) to be hit by Jaws in order to have the line run through and hit the deathstar locked in combat.

 

All that means dayum if you get lucky enough to pull it off.

 

Short of several Thunderlords and Thunder-cav with Storm Shields, your best bet is to Murderous Hurricane the unit to slow it down (and maybe land a few wounds with dangerous terrain) while you take out the rest of his army and focus on the objectives. I don't know why people are always so fixated on "killing" a unit when winning through objectives is a completely valid (and more often easier) way to win. This isn't Fantasy where winning or losing is predicated on actually killing a deathstar unit (which, principally, is the point of fielding one in Fantasy, so many points put into so powerful a unit that by fielding it you'll either win if it lives, or lose if it dies).

 

 

DV8

[Zynk Kaladin]

EDIT: DV8 cleared it up for me

[DV8]

"As a psychic shooting attack, the rune priest may trace a strait line along the board, starting from the rune priest and ending 24" away... Monstrous creatures... that are touched by this line must take an initiative test." SW codex page 37.

 

I can see where the whole "you cant fire into close combat" rule could be argued, but the rule allows you to point the strait line where ever you want. It says nothing about jaws not affecting units in cc. Also, technically you could argue that you weren't specifically targeting the units in cc and the line just so happened to fall upon them.

 

This was clarified in the Space Wolves FAQ, and I quote:

 

As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects - in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

 

 

DV8

[Spacefrisian]

So my Ragnar tactic was the best at that moment. (it was a droppod army btw.)

[Grimtooth]

"As a psychic shooting attack, the rune priest may trace a strait line along the board, starting from the rune priest and ending 24" away... Monstrous creatures... that are touched by this line must take an initiative test." SW codex page 37.

 

I can see where the whole "you cant fire into close combat" rule could be argued, but the rule allows you to point the strait line where ever you want. It says nothing about jaws not affecting units in cc. Also, technically you could argue that you weren't specifically targeting the units in cc and the line just so happened to fall upon them.

 

This was clarified in the Space Wolves FAQ, and I quote:

 

As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects - in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

 

 

DV8

 

This just raises a question in my mind:

 

If I have true LOS to an unengaged model on the other side of a close combat, I would draw my line through the close combat to affect him. As the FAQ says, it just happens to hit everybody on the way through. However in this scenario he is not the first model the power affects. It would be a model in close combat. However, even this model would be withing true LOS so would fulfill the requirements of being the first modle affected by the power.

[DV8]

This just raises a question in my mind:

 

If I have true LOS to an unengaged model on the other side of a close combat, I would draw my line through the close combat to affect him. As the FAQ says, it just happens to hit everybody on the way through. However in this scenario he is not the first model the power affects. It would be a model in close combat. However, even this model would be withing true LOS so would fulfill the requirements of being the first modle affected by the power.

 

No, because the first model hit is treated as the "target model". As Jaws is a psychic shooting attack, it must abide by several and procedures:

 

1. It must be in LoS

2. It must not be locked or engaged in close combat

3. Roll psychic test

4. You roll to hit

5. You roll to wound

6. Target rolls to save

 

Jaws replaces steps 4 through 6 by having you simply draw a straight 24" line, and every model hit makes an Initiative test. However, you must still abide by the first 3, and since the first model hit is in the deathstar unit and thus locked in combat, you fail to meet criteria 2, making the deathstar unit an ineligible target for Jaws.

 

 

DV8

[Grimtooth]

This just raises a question in my mind:

 

If I have true LOS to an unengaged model on the other side of a close combat, I would draw my line through the close combat to affect him. As the FAQ says, it just happens to hit everybody on the way through. However in this scenario he is not the first model the power affects. It would be a model in close combat. However, even this model would be withing true LOS so would fulfill the requirements of being the first modle affected by the power.

 

No, because the first model hit is treated as the "target model". As Jaws is a psychic shooting attack, it must abide by several and procedures:

 

1. It must be in LoS

2. It must not be locked or engaged in close combat

3. Roll psychic test

4. You roll to hit

5. You roll to wound

6. Target rolls to save

 

Jaws replaces steps 4 through 6 by having you simply draw a straight 24" line, and every model hit makes an Initiative test. However, you must still abide by the first 3, and since the first model hit is in the deathstar unit and thus locked in combat, you fail to meet criteria 2, making the deathstar unit an ineligible target for Jaws.

 

 

DV8

 

It says "in effect" making him the target model which he is eligble for not being in close combat and in LOS. I can just as easily say that the models in close combat are covered by the "and hits everyone on the way through".

[DV8]

If you choose to argue that the model behind the close combat is your "in effect the target model", then reading the entire FAQ statement by your logic, whereby the first model that the power affects is that target model, I could argue that everything the line touches between the Rune Priest and your "target model" is unaffected by Jaws.

 

As Jaws affects EVERYTHING it touches, friend or foe (although certain models hit by it are unaffected because they are vehicles, flyers, jump infantry, etc.) we can then extrapolate that the very first model hit by the Jaws line becomes the target model by virtue that it is the first model affected by the power (re: the first model the line actually hits as it extends from the Rune Priest).

 

From there you work it out if the first model affected satisfies the requirements of the standard shooting rules, amended by the Jaws rules (as I mentioned above).

 

This also means you cannot fire Jaws through friendly units, if the first model hit happens to be one of your own models (as you cannot willfully or directly target one of your own models/units).

 

 

DV8