Why give a Captain Terminator armor?

[thade]

Recall that I use the BA codex now, but this applies to the other codexes too...if for no other reason than my insatiable curiosity.

 

A Captain comes with a 3+/4++ and, in PA, takes up only one slot in a transport, can ride in a Rhino chassis-transport, and can perform a Sweeping Advance.

 

For a pretty significant chunk of points he can upgrade to a 2+/4++ and can now Deep Strike (with 2d6" of scatter). He takes up two slots in a transport, can't ride in a Rhino chassis, and can no longer perform a Sweeping Advance. Also, the captain in TDA potentially looks way more awesome. If you take TDA, he can get a Storm Bolter or a Chainfist. A Captain with a Chainfist is kind of interesting...as it's WS6 which, against a Walker (e.g. a Dread) could be pretty amazing.

 

I'm not convinced (other than looking awesome, of that I am convinced) that it's worth it, unless I take a Chainfist...in which case it's useful in a rather small subset of cases (which any savy opponent would likely keep in mind). So, I admit: fluff-wise it makes perfect sense, but tactically I am not so sure.

 

Thoughts? Have you ever used a Captain in TDA and why?

 

EDIT: A mistake, caught by Meatman (below), fixed.

[Meatman]

A Captain with a Chainfist is kind of interesting...as it's WS6 which, against a Walker (e.g. a Dread) at I5 could be pretty amazing.

 

Chainfist would make him I1 just like a powerfist.

 

 

Apart from deepstriking him with other terminator squads I can't see the point personally.

[Grey Mage]

Well, in the SW codex it gets you cheaper options for SCCWs and some wargear. This can be helpful, as a tooled up wolf lord gets pricey, and runic armor is expensive.

 

For BAs who lack AA its certainly a viable option because its the only way to get that 2+ save.

 

For C:SM its much less attractive as its 2pts more than AA, PW, and SB.... and you completely lose out on the option of taking a relicblade, arguably the best marine HtH weapon since blissgiver. The Chainfist is a good option, but overall the pricing and options were a mistake, and I think GW has recognized that- theres a reason chaos gets a TDA lord kit and we get a PA Captain kit.

[thade]

That is sad to think about; too bad they won't errata-balance it to at least make taking TDA equivalent to PA upgrades. Still, you're right...that 2+ save on a Captain might be a worthy upgrade. I mean, the model looks awesome so I'm already sold on painting it. :D

[minigun762]

Its really sad that its almost impossible to field a Terminator HQ that isn't a point sink because it should be the most appropriate thing to give someone of high status without the Chapter/Legion/Warband.

[BearersOfSalvation]

If you plan to teleport him in with a terminator squad or if you think it looks really cool then go for it. Otherwise artificer armor gives you the same save, doesn't restrict you as much, and costs less. Terminator armor is worthwhile on librarians because they can't get an invulnerable save otherwise and they can use vortex of doom much better with relentless, on any other character it's a waste for vanilla marines. Terminator armor should have it's price reduced to or below that of artificer armor, it's priced appropriately for old editions where it also gave +1 attack.

[thade]

Its really sad that its almost impossible to field a Terminator HQ that isn't a point sink because it should be the most appropriate thing to give someone of high status without the Chapter/Legion/Warband.

 

This is very true in the case of the Captain and the Chaplain (both of which come with 4++ invulns already), but the Librarian doesn't have easy access to an invuln save at all; given TDA however, it becomes very cheap to get him a Storm Shield and now he's got a 3++. This changed my Librarian from a back-lines ranged support IC to a model who has single-handedly brought down two dreadnoughts in his past three games. (BA codex Str 10 and 3++ are remarkably useful, even if stressful in that one situation.)

 

More realistically, that 3++ makes the Librarian a more reasonable choice for general melee; the BA dex has a power where he grants the unit he's with Preferred Enemy, which means you're almost always charging in with a chaplain. Not to mention the more mundane benefit of having a reasonably invuln to help stave off Perils of the Warp.

[ShinyRhino]

My concern with taking a chainfist on a Captain in TDA would be instant death. He'd make a neat walker-killer, but most walkers can instakill him in close combat with one failed 4++ save. :P

I'm thkinking of building out one of each of the TDA HQs, just for giggles. The captain has the best options for wargear, obviously. I was thinking stormbolter, single lightning claw, and meltabombs. Jack of All Trades loadout.

[AyanamiKun]

I have a Captain in TDA but until now I never used him in any game. Basically he is just there to look nice behind the glass in my hobby room :P My Captain with normal PA or Artificer Armor sees action pretty often, though.

[Tanhausen]

Jack of All Trades loadout.

 

Master of none :P

 

If you want a Master in TDA... take Belial

[Jackelope King]

Jack of All Trades loadout.

 

Master of none :)

 

If you want a Master in TDA... take Belial

Honestly, if/when they fix the DA Codex, this is probably what'll happen (though I'd vastly prefer it if I could take a "Deathwing Leader with Captain Stats"). Being able to take the equivalent of a Command Squad in Terminator Armor is really what a Terminator Captain sort of wants for, and Dark Angels, in my mind, should wind up being the best at it (some day, when their Codex gets fixed).

 

Were I writing it, DA would maintain 40-point Terminators, but would have access to 40-point TH/SS Terminators, and would otherwise have access to cheaper wargear for Terminators (cheaper cyclones especially). Heck, I'd seriously weigh giving Dark Angels a Crux Terminatrix that gave them a 4++ invuln instead of 5++ and be pretty satisfied.

 

But that's neither here nor there. Most Captains don't want Terminator Armor. Mine makes up for it by riding a giant robot dinosaur.

[ShinyRhino]

Jack of All Trades loadout.

 

Master of none :)

 

If you want a Master in TDA... take Belial

 

If only I ran the DA Codex. If I ever find time to build all the Terminators I own, I might field an Ultrawing with Belial-as-Agemman.

[Brother Xeones]

Terminator armor should have it's price reduced to or below that of artificer armor, it's priced appropriately for old editions where it also gave +1 attack.

This. The other thing is, IIRC, Iron Halos didn't come standard on captains and masters in the previous codex and it cost something like 25 points too.

 

As far as I am concerned there is no reason to ever put a vanilla captain or chapter master in terminator armor (from a competitive perspective anyway) there are too many drawbacks --limited wargear, limited transport, no sweeping advance, and all you get is Deep Strike and Relentless. And Relentless is worthless unless you're dropping Orbital Bombardment, or you have a combi-weapon.

 

 

I have a question which has more to do with modeling and rules than tactics, but it has to do with this topic so I think I'll ask about it anyway:

 

If I want a Master with Relic Blade and SS in TDA to teleport in with some tactical terminators, would anyone here have a problem with modeling such a model (technically an illegal loadout), but actually giving him a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Jump Pack?

 

The effect is basically the same: 2+/3++/Deep Strike as long as he is with the terminators his movement and ability to sweeping advance don't come into play anyway.

[ShinyRhino]

And Relentless is worthless unless you're dropping Orbital Bombardment, or you have a combi-weapon.

 

FYI, Relentless does not help with Orbital Bombardment. It's Ordnance, and specifically states that you must remain stationary in the prior Movement phase. Relentless only helps with Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons.

 

I have a question which has more to do with modeling and rules than tactics, but it has to do with this topic so I think I'll ask about it anyway:

 

If I want a Master with Relic Blade and SS in TDA to teleport in with some tactical terminators, would anyone here have a problem with modeling such a model (technically an illegal loadout), but actually giving him a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Jump Pack?

 

The effect is basically the same: 2+/3++/Deep Strike as long as he is with the terminators his movement and ability to sweeping advance don't come into play anyway.

 

This was asked in the Official Rules forum. You'd have to do a searchy for the exact debate, but it was not the best idea. it boils down to the Terminators using a teleport, and the Master dropping in from a Thunderhawk, and the shenanigans involved in combining the two. I can't remember if it was possible RAW-wise, but it would cause some animosity in a competitive environment.

[thade]

If I want a Master with Relic Blade and SS in TDA to teleport in with some tactical terminators, would anyone here have a problem with modeling such a model (technically an illegal loadout), but actually giving him a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Jump Pack?

 

The effect is basically the same: 2+/3++/Deep Strike as long as he is with the terminators his movement and ability to sweeping advance don't come into play anyway.

 

Among friends, of course, anything goes. However, from a strictly rules-speaking perspective, this wouldn't be okay. It would give the model a larger base which he wasn't paying for, which allows him to get more models into BtB with him and thus potentially affect more units/ICs than he'd otherwise be able to. Beyond that (which I admit is as much a problem for you as a bonus), it's no longer recognizable...as it's modeled in TDA but not wearing TDA. It has the potential to confuse people. During a tournament this could get you disqualified...and for that reason, I wouldn't model it.

 

Model the AA as fancy PA (which is what it is) and not as TDA (which it is distinctly not).

[Octavulg]

The one possible exception you might be able to get away with is massively blinging the TDA to death so it can plausibly be claimed as Artificer Armor just as much as TDA.

[Brother Xeones]

And Relentless is worthless unless you're dropping Orbital Bombardment, or you have a combi-weapon.

FYI, Relentless does not help with Orbital Bombardment. It's Ordnance, and specifically states that you must remain stationary in the prior Movement phase. Relentless only helps with Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons.

 

Good catch there. I'd forgotten that the entry for the OB was Ordinance. Of course, this just proves my point even more so: relentless is rarely helpful on a captain or master.

 

As far as creating a count-as terminator Master, I guess the general consensus is, "don't." :) Base size is something I had not considered. It's too bad since, other than that, I'm paying actual points for all of his gear and I'm voluntarily limiting the model's abilities. Ah well, it wouldn't have really be a particularly competitive choice anyway, so I suppose I shouldn't really be terribly disappointed that he probably wouldn't be tournament worthy. I just really want to make the model, but I want to be able to actually use him regularly afterward. :D

[Octavulg]

How is base size an issue. Put him on the small base. Boom. Yer done.

[thade]

I just really want to make the model, but I want to be able to actually use him regularly afterward. :D

 

Let the record show that I am committing to make not one but two Captain models in TDA because it fits my fluff...and I *will* be occasionally fielding them for the fun of it.

 

One will be a TDA model with 2x Lit Claws.

The other will be a TDA model with 2x Thunder Hammers.

 

...

 

I'm not kidding. I already have a PA model with 2x TH, named Captain Vito. What's fun about him is how terrified my opponents often are of this ridiculous points-sink.

[BearersOfSalvation]

If I want a Master with Relic Blade and SS in TDA to teleport in with some tactical terminators, would anyone here have a problem with modeling such a model (technically an illegal loadout), but actually giving him a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Jump Pack?

 

I don't really get why people are so big on Relic blades - they're nice if your captain ends up toe to toe with a MC, but a captain with terminators has a bunch of powerfists or thunder hammers behind him to deal with MCs. A pair of LCs is actually better at dealing with anything below T6, and it's what I usually use.

[ShinyRhino]

If I want a Master with Relic Blade and SS in TDA to teleport in with some tactical terminators, would anyone here have a problem with modeling such a model (technically an illegal loadout), but actually giving him a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Jump Pack?

 

I don't really get why people are so big on Relic blades - they're nice if your captain ends up toe to toe with a MC, but a captain with terminators has a bunch of powerfists or thunder hammers behind him to deal with MCs. A pair of LCs is actually better at dealing with anything below T6, and it's what I usually use.

 

The math does not agree with you. Against T4, yes, claws are marginally better (like half a wound better). But as you progress upward to T5 and T6, the blade becomes better.

Add into the equationthe fact that the blade can cause Instant Death to T3 models, and the fact that you can take a stormshield alongside a relic blade, and you've got a better HQ loadout.

[Brother Xeones]

I just think claws look a little silly anyway. Mind you, that's just a personal preference, but I'm not likely to ever give a model claws just for that reason alone :yes:

I think an HQ with a gigantic sword (or equivalent) is just infinitely cooler!

 

Edit: I can't seem to spell today...

[thade]

I just think claws look a little silly anyway. Mind you, that's just a personal preference, but I'm not likely to ever give a model claws just for that reason alone :yes:

I think an HQ with a gigantic sword (or equivalent) is just infinitely cooler!

 

Edit: I can't seem to spell today...

 

I'm a fan of the lit claws if for no other reason than some visual-variety; also the thought of one maniac in a melee with freaking claws ablaze with lightning is appealing to me.

[BearersOfSalvation]

The math does not agree with you. Against T4, yes, claws are marginally better (like half a wound better). But as you progress upward to T5 and T6, the blade becomes better. Add into the equationthe fact that the blade can cause Instant Death to T3 models,

 

I started another thread on this topic to avoid hijacking this one too badly, I'd like to continue this there. BTW, I did have the T breakpoint wrong, the relic blade does get better at T5 (though if the LC advantage at low T is 'marginal', the RB advantage at high T is about twice as marginal).

[vonny]

the main problem with having your captain with a jump pack instead of TDA is the use of teleport homers, I think. If you don't use them much, and especially for friendly games, I'd go for it!