FNP rules question

[CainTheHunter]

I decided to put it here, because it relates to Lone Wolves essentially. I've never though about it before, so probably this is just a simple stupid question, but - can a model with FNP save unsaved wound from "Get's Hot!"? Namely, if the model fails its 3+ armor save after firing plasma weapon, can it take the 4+ FNP save? Because if yes, then it gives a new meaning to MoTW Lone Wolves.

 

It's kind of not prohibited, since it refers to unsaved wound and in case of "Get's hot" normal armor saves are permitted - it is not like saving a direct hit from plasma, which would not be permitted under FNP rules.

[breng77]

yes it can, as gets hot is not Ap 1,2 or causing instant death.

[Grimtooth]

I am still trying how to see it gives a whole new meaning to MotW Lone Wolves.

[CainTheHunter]

I am still trying how to see it gives a whole new meaning to MotW Lone Wolves.

 

Just to help You out - it makes sense to give them a plasma pistol, since he might be in trouble trying to pop-open transports with Rending hits.

 

I apologise if this is an old combo, but till today I've been looking only to TDA LW options.

 

The next post will my 1000th post...

[Brother Nathan]

thin hes meaning sheild, plasma pistol/combi plasma and motw. though youd be better with combi melta...but yea you do get the fnp save vs gets hot...

[narf]

quick question

 

Models normally dont get FnP from instant death weaponry, since the lone wolf cant be instant death'd (bad english sorry) would he still get FnP from a krak missile hit or not?

[CainTheHunter]

quick question

 

Models normally dont get FnP from instant death weaponry, since the lone wolf cant be instant death'd (bad english sorry) would he still get FnP from a krak missile hit or not?

 

If You read FNP rules carefully, they say that even models with eternal warrior rule don't get the FNP save from that.

 

This was my 1000th post.

[BrotherCaptainJames]

Another note on FNP... if you read carefully it also says you cannot use FNP from wounds that circumvent armor saves, i.e. an ork boy with a 6+ save takes a bolter wound, his armor cannot save against it therefore he cannot use FNP if a painboy was attached. Big time revelation there.

[dswanick]

Another note on FNP... if you read carefully it also says you cannot use FNP from wounds that circumvent armor saves, i.e. an ork boy with a 6+ save takes a bolter wound, his armor cannot save against it therefore he cannot use FNP if a painboy was attached. Big time revelation there.

You've mis-quoted the rule and therefore drawn an incorrect conclusion.

FEEL NO PAIN - "This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior). Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)."

Armor saves against bolters can be taken (if your armor is strong enough), therefore, the can not circumvent FNP (even if your armor isn't good enough).

[BrotherCaptainJames]

an armor save of 6+ CAN NEVER BE TAKEN against anything AP6 or lower :D He'd get the FNP against regular CC attacks, but shooting wise if it's AP6 or lower no FNP for him, as that armor save can never be used.

[Skalver]

an armor save of 6+ CAN NEVER BE TAKEN against anything AP6 or lower :D He'd get the FNP against regular CC attacks, but shooting wise if it's AP6 or lower no FNP for him, as that armor save can never be used.

 

Again you are rephrasing. Can armor saves ever be taken against bolter wounds? Yes they can. therefore wounds caused by bolters can be prevented by FNP. The check is made against what causes the wound not against the target, since bolter wounds can be saved against, they can be prevented by FNP.

 

Is a bolter wound a "wound against which no armour save can ever be taken"? No it isn't. Therefore FNP can be used.

[BrotherCaptainJames]

Armor saves can be taken as long as the AP rating is above the armor rating. AP is almost like a power weapon in this instance, where it ignores armor equal to its value. I'm not "rephrasing" anything, if you read the entry it's clear as day: "and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken" an armor save of 6+ can never be taken against weapons with AP value of 6 or lower. Here's another instance, let's say somehow Kroot have FNP. They don't have an armor save period, so any weapon can kill them provided that it wounds. They can never use FNP because they have no armor save.

[Grimtooth]

Armor saves can be taken as long as the AP rating is above the armor rating. AP is almost like a power weapon in this instance, where it ignores armor equal to its value. I'm not "rephrasing" anything, if you read the entry it's clear as day: "and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken" an armor save of 6+ can never be taken against weapons with AP value of 6 or lower. Here's another instance, let's say somehow Kroot have FNP. They don't have an armor save period, so any weapon can kill them provided that it wounds. They can never use FNP because they have no armor save.

 

Wrong again.

 

Check the specific examples given. None of them allow an armor save, ever. It is the weapon, not the target that dictates if an armor save can ever be taken.

 

Armor saves can be taken against a bolter. Maybe not an orc, but by a Space Marine, some Tyranids, etc, etc. However for a meltagun, you can never take an armor save against it, never. Same with a plasmagun, never allowed an armor save. Power weapon, powerfist, etc, etc, never able to take an armor save against.

[breng77]

The reason FNP works for AP 3 and Above, is because the rule states no armor save may ever be taken, not the models armor save can never be taken. As is stated above a 2+ armor save can be taken, against an Ap3 bolter shot, and thus FNP works against said shot even if that model has a save that is worse than 2+.

 

Simply put a 6+ save is not the same as no save (which should be read as any save)

[Skalver]

Armor saves can be taken as long as the AP rating is above the armor rating. AP is almost like a power weapon in this instance, where it ignores armor equal to its value. I'm not "rephrasing" anything, if you read the entry it's clear as day: "and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken" an armor save of 6+ can never be taken against weapons with AP value of 6 or lower. Here's another instance, let's say somehow Kroot have FNP. They don't have an armor save period, so any weapon can kill them provided that it wounds. They can never use FNP because they have no armor save.

 

Answer this question, is a wound from a boltgun a "wound against which no armor save can ever be taken"?

 

You are trying to interpret this as being a "wound against which no armor save can ever be taken by the target" which is a very different interpretation. When you add in that extra little caveat, then you are rephrasing the rule. Without those extra few words on which your interpretation hinges you have nothing to base the interpretation on. If those words were supposed to be there they would be there.

[Spazmonkey]

Yeah the FNP rule is quite clear. Ramses is quite right as I know he is aware, no amount rephrasing is gunna change that.

The rule is not target specific.

[narf]

also how do you expect things like plague bearers to work then? it has no ARMOUR save, only an invulnerable save, and yet has FnP.

 

IF the ap of the weapon is not 1 or 2, an if the weapon would actually allow an armour save (ie not power weapon, jotww, rending) whether or not the model has enough armour to take the save, then you get FnP

[Grey Mage]

an armor save of 6+ CAN NEVER BE TAKEN against anything AP6 or lower ;) He'd get the FNP against regular CC attacks, but shooting wise if it's AP6 or lower no FNP for him, as that armor save can never be used.

No, thats not what the rule says.

 

AP 1, AP 2, or against wich no armor saves can ever be taken. That last part is not attached to the AP of a weapon, but rather to special rules like those used with Powerweapons, and the C:Daemons barf attack that simply state 'no armor saves allowed'.

 

Youll note, AP 1 and AP 2 are also the only APs that armor in this game are always ignored by. Consistency.

[Decoy]

I agree with Brother Rameses and GM, of course. However, that raises an interesting question that popped through my mind.

 

What if, in some rules-set or another, a type of armor is introduced to the game which -can- take an armor save from those weapons? Perhaps armor that ignores , diminishes, or minimizes the AP of a weapon. Now that such a weapon (Meltagun) -CAN- be blocked by at least one Armor save, does that mean that this rule becomes moot? Since an armor type -could- take a save against such a weapon, they no longer fall under the realm of "CAN NEVER BE TAKEN", meaning FNP would work against pretty much damned near anything.

 

I know the chances are nil, but that's how my overtired, overworked, Warp-addled mind works. Thoughts?

[Grey Mage]

Because it specifies AP 1/2 it would still work unless the armors rule literally declaired the AP of a gun was at best AP 3. If it did that, and the gun wasnt double toughness, then FNP would be able to function.

[Valerian]

What if, in some rules-set or another, a type of armor is introduced to the game which -can- take an armor save from those weapons?

 

We will cross that bridge when GW builds it.

 

V

[Grimtooth]

Because it specifies AP 1/2 it would still work unless the armors rule literally declaired the AP of a gun was at best AP 3. If it did that, and the gun wasnt double toughness, then FNP would be able to function.

 

This.

 

The imaginary armor would still be subject to the conditions of ap 1/2 and double toughness rule.

[BrotherCaptainJames]

I believe the AP 1&2 were specifically mentioned because of the fact that no model in the game has an armor save greater than 2+, thus supporting the AP aspect of not being able to benefit from FNP. As for the invulnerable save part for the plague bearer example, AP no longer matters because you always get an invulnerable save from shooting. I'm not trying to step on toes here, i'm just saying specifically for shooting, if a model has an armor save that can be negated by AP, then technically it's receiving a wound from which no armor save can ever be made, rendering FNP useless. I've actually posed this to several different GW employees who also happen to be enthusiasts of the game instead of just trying to sell product, and after re-reading the article they've come to agree with this point of view regarding FNP. Believe me, I've encountered GW employees who are by far the least reliable rules experts, but these are guys I've gamed with on a regular basis. I was just interested to see how the B&C community would respond.

[dswanick]

Can you ever make an armor save against :

• Power weapons? (No)
  Lightning claws? (No)
  Dreadnaught close combat weapons (No)
  Perils of the Warp? (No)
  failed dangerous terrain tests? (No)
  Bolters? (Yes)
  

Therefore, can you make a FNP save against :

• Power weapons? (No)
  Lightning claws? (No)
  Dreadnaught close combat weapons? (No)
  Perils of the Warp? (No)
  failed dangerous terrain tests? (No)
  Bolters? (Yes)
  

It doesn't matter that your model's armor is negated by the weapon in question, the weapon doesn't negate all armor saves therefore it doesn't negate FNP. The Plague Bearer has no armor save and has Feel no Pain, it's Invulnerable save is irrelevant to this discussion. It's lack of an armor save doesn't prevent it from using it's FNP.

[BrotherCaptainJames]

But the armor being negated is exactly the point because it comes back to "any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken"... AP ignores armor, just like a power weapon would.