Relic Blade vs lightning claws

[BearersOfSalvation]

This started over in another thread, it's a completely different argument from that thread so I decided to split it off. I see people get giddy about the Relic Blade, but I don't really see why it's so well-liked over lightning claws. Note that I'm not saying that a relic blade is a bad choice, just that I think LCs are better most of the time and that it's not as open-and-shut as some people think. (I admit, I also like the look of LCs better)

 

A pair of lightning claws does significantly more damage to T3 and T4 targets than a relic blade, while a blade is better (though not as dramatically) against higher T. The main reason I have a captain is to kill targets before they can hit whatever squad the captain is with, since normally the squad either has a powerfist (sternguard, assault squad) or a whole batch of powerfists/thunder hammers (terminators). While the relic blade is nicer if I end up against an MC, the captain really doesn't stand much chance downing an MC on his own with either weapon, and the squad powerfist or squad of terminators is what will really take down an MC. If it's a mixed fight with MCs and cannon fodder, the captain is much better off killing off weak cannon fodder (which the LCs are better at) than poking the MC, since winning the fight by X wounds will force the MC to make X saves.

 

I just don't see that the Relic Blade comes out better in fights that I would typically encounter, LCs would have better performance in any fight I'm likely to encounter. The blade does have the advantage of allowing a second weapon 'slot' for a storm shield, hellfire bolter, combi-bolter, or plasma pistol, but if I'm not concerned about that then the claws win out. So why do you prefer the relic blade?

 

Here's the number crunching. The top line says the toughness of the target, which weapon is better, and by how many average wounds, the lower lines are the average number of wounds. The captain has the same chance to hit with either one, so I'm assuming he hits 50% on both. Lightning claws get 4 attacks (3 base + bonus attack for pair), relic blade gets 3 attacks (no bonus), this is the 'sustained' attacks, the relic blade comes out a little better on the charge since it gets 33% more attacks instead of 25% more. Relic blade wound chance is simple, lightning claw wound chance is (1 - [chance to not wound]*[chance to not wound]) because you have to fail to wound on both the roll and reroll to not wound.

 

 

T3: LC 41%

LC 1.77 = 4 * 1/2 * 8/9

RB 1.25 = 3 * 1/2 * 5/6

 

T4: LC 20%

LC 1.50 = 4 * 1/2 * 3/4

RB 1.25 = 3 * 1/2 * 5/6

 

T5: RB 13%

LC .88 = 4 * 1/2 * 4/9

RB 1.0 = 3 * 1/2 * 2/3

 

T6: RB 22%

LC .61 = 4 * 1/2 * 11/36

RB .75 = 3 * 1/2 * 1/2

[TyrionTheImp]

Well if you're talking about pairs of lightning claws, I believe they take up your ability to use a ranged weapon in addition to your claws. So the Relic Blade replaces the standard Chainsword, and since you can't get an extra attack with a pistol you can get a combi-weapon to make use of your captain's BS5 and even throw in Hellfire rounds to make a fairly powerful all around captain. Also you can't get a storm shield with claws either, another advantage of the relic blade if you want a better save.

 

Sure twin claws are better in close combat than a Relic Blade, but unless you take a grenade launcher you lose all range, basically making the points you spent in the built in cost of the captain getting BS5 is wasted.

[Brother Dylan]

I think the advantage of the relic blade lies not in its killing power but its versatility. Your captain can fill more roles compared to the claws.

[Hellios]

I prefer claws because your captain can't hurt my Wraithlord now ahahahahaha.

[Paulochromis]

Unless he's Shrike, with Rending =c)

[Meatman]

Unless he's Shrike, with Rending =c)

 

Makes no difference except against vehicles I'm afraid :)

 

I do love the fact Shrike has 2 claws, and a bolt pistol.

[Hellios]

Unless he's Shrike, with Rending =c)

 

Makes no difference except against vehicles I'm afraid :)

 

I do love the fact Shrike has 2 claws, and a bolt pistol.

 

OO shrikes rule only works on infantry? But yer a Wraithlord is a MC., being killed by one round of shooting from a single assault cannon sucks :<

[thade]

OO shrikes rule only works on infantry?

Recall what Rending does; when you roll a 6 to wound, it ignores armor (i.e. functions as a power weapon for that particular wound). Shrike's Lit Claws are already power weapons, so this is meaningless to him. The second part of rending allows an additional d3 of armor pen when hitting a vehicle if you score a Rending hit (roll a six to wound). Shrike CAN take advantage of this...so in melee he's got a very good chance of tearing a Rhino open.

[Marshal Serion]

OO shrikes rule only works on infantry?

Recall what Rending does; when you roll a 6 to wound, it ignores armor (i.e. functions as a power weapon for that particular wound). Shrike's Lit Claws are already power weapons, so this is meaningless to him. The second part of rending allows an additional d3 of armor pen when hitting a vehicle if you score a Rending hit (roll a six to wound). Shrike CAN take advantage of this...so in melee he's got a very good chance of tearing a Rhino open.

 

 

Did everyone seem to forget that a Rending hit causes a wound, regardless of Toughness?

 

 

I believe that was the point being made.

[thade]

Did everyone seem to forget that a Rending hit causes a wound, regardless of Toughness?

 

I did forget that. So, yes, number-for-number Shrike could hurt a Wraithlord. I would not, however, charge a Wraithlord with Shrike...not unless I'd already hit the Wraithlord down to 1 wound with a Dev Squad.

[Hellios]

Did everyone seem to forget that a Rending hit causes a wound, regardless of Toughness?

 

I did forget that. So, yes, number-for-number Shrike could hurt a Wraithlord. I would not, however, charge a Wraithlord with Shrike...not unless I'd already hit the Wraithlord down to 1 wound with a Dev Squad.

OO I know Shrike could hurt a Wraithlord (when I say infantry I mean anything with 'person' stats rather than vehicle stats), I just wasn't sure if Shrike had some rule that meant his rending wouldn't work on vehicles... like the Skulltakers super-rending of instant death specifically says he it won't work on vehicles... I guess it is hard to figure out where the skull is on a Leman Russ.

[Meatman]

Did everyone seem to forget that a Rending hit causes a wound, regardless of Toughness?

 

 

I'll admit, I did forget that. Thanks for reminding me :D

 

So it means that when he's in combat with a wraithlord, he wounds on a 6, but due to the lightning claw rules, he can re-roll any non sixes. Gives him a decent chance against one in combat actually...

 

Just another reason why he's so epic ;)

[Brother Captain Josef]

The blade does have the advantage of allowing a second weapon 'slot' for a storm shield, hellfire bolter, combi-bolter, or plasma pistol, but if I'm not concerned about that then the claws win out. So why do you prefer the relic blade?

 

This basically. The relic blade also has the possibility of further augmentation of having digi weapons for those tough creatures which are meaningless on LClaws. If LCs work for you go with them. I tend to send my cap toe to toe with big gribblies before they hit my lines essentially giving me an extra turn of shooting but with RB+SS combo he has a good chance to do some damage and can be a huge pest to kill. For instance the 3 times my cap went up against an avatar it took 5 combat phases to kill him once and the other two times he kicked its head off as i had managed to kill that blasted Eldrad fortuning it.

 

Brother Captain Josef - xpts

Relic Blade - xpts

Storm Shield - xpts

Artificer Armour - xpts

Digital weapons - xpts

Total = 170 pts

 

That's 170 points that has never let me down... Avatars, Carnifexes, huge mobs of gribblies and even a Nightbringer have been spanked by this Relic blade weildin', mohawk wearin', cuban cigar smokin' ode to uber badassery.

 

You need more? :o

 

++ Edited out individual wargear costs. Please refer to forum rules with regards posting excessive wargear points values. I ++

[Meatman]

That\'s 170 points that has never let me down... Avatars, Carnifexes, huge mobs of gribblies and even a Nightbringer have been spanked by this Relic blade weildin\', mohawk wearin\', cuban cigar smokin\' ode to uber badassery.

 

You need more? :)

 

No we need less, you're not supposed to put individual point values on.

And you're brave putting your captain 1 on 1 with mr lord of war himself. Gribblies are easy to kill without being S6, you'd normally want the extra attack that 2 claws gives.

 

Edit: Spelling

[thade]

You need more? :)

 

Yea, against forum rules to post point values for individual upgrades. Won't be long before a moderator edits them out, I suspect.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I think the advantage of the relic blade lies not in its killing power but its versatility. Your captain can fill more roles compared to the claws.

 

What useful roles does the captain fill that he couldn't fill with LCs? The only reason I'd take a captain over a librarian or chaplain are his HtH ability, so reducing his killing power seems a pretty sever cost to me. He's marginally better at killing MCs and drednoughts, but he's pretty bad at it, and the LC captain can still fill that role. He can kill a wratihlord, but only wounds it on 6s, so I don't really count that at a role, if I want to melee a wraithlord it will involve fists or hammers. I just don't see any benefit that would warrant reducing his ability to fill his main role.

 

I prefer claws because your captain can't hurt my Wraithlord now ahahahahaha.

 

How is a model that moves 6" and charges 6" going to force my captain going along with an assault squad that moves 12" and charges 6" into combat? I'd have to screw up pretty badly to end up in that situation. If my captain is accompanying terminators, then who cares if he can poke the wraithlord with S6 when he's got 12+ S8 attacks riding around with him? This is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about useful roles, sure he can hurt a wrathlord on 6s like shrike, but that's not likely to be useufl, and I probably screwed up to get him there.

 

Well if you're talking about pairs of lightning claws, I believe they take up your ability to use a ranged weapon in addition to your claws. So the Relic Blade replaces the standard Chainsword, and since you can't get an extra attack with a pistol you can get a combi-weapon to make use of your captain's BS5 and even throw in Hellfire rounds to make a fairly powerful all around captain. Also you can't get a storm shield with claws either, another advantage of the relic blade if you want a better save.

 

The thing is I'm looking at using him in a real list, not coming up with a theoretical way to toss as many capabilities on him as I can. If I take a captain, I'm paying points for his HtH ability, not for slightly more accurate shots. If I took a captain to lead a squad of sternguard then I could see wanting to double-tap hellfire rounds when the squad jumps out and shoots, but rather than spend 140+ points on him I'd just spend a simple 100 and get a librarian with an AP3 flamer template and psychic hood. Other than riding with sternguard, in any role I'd use him actually firing a rapid-fire weapon is a mistake - he should be in a vehicle, charging, or running.

 

How do you use your captain so that hellfire rounds are an actual advantage and not just good on paper? I either run him with a jump pack and plain assault squad (and would consider a command or vanguard) or riding in a land raider with a terminator squad. Neither of those options wants to stop to fire rapid-fire weapons, they want to charge or move.

 

It's kind of odd that you're both worried about not wasting the captain's BS5, but also listing taking a storm shield as a relic blade advantage, since that also 'wastes' the captain's BS. I don't find the SS attractive myself, but the fact that you think the SS is a reasonable choice really weakens the 'BS5' part of what you're saying.

 

Sure twin claws are better in close combat than a Relic Blade, but unless you take a grenade launcher you lose all range, basically making the points you spent in the built in cost of the captain getting BS5 is wasted.

 

That's really like saying that if you keep your rhino moving fast and/or popping smoke, you're wasting the built-in cost of the storm bolter - I take the rhino to move my guys, the SB is a bonus, and I take the captain to fight in HtH, the BS is just a bonus. If I care about shots I wouldn't spend the points to get a squad of 5 sternguard each with a combi-weapon to bring a captain with relic blade, hellfire rounds, and 1 combi weapon, even if he is BS5, the captain is there to cut things.

[ShinyRhino]

The differences are too marginal to rely purely on Mathhammer. You have to go to other factors like ability to shoot before the charge, take a 3++ save shield, or instakill T3 opponents to decide which you prefer.

I'm personally a fan of chopping down Guard commanders, Eldar farseers, etc with a single failed invulnerable save on the part of my opponent, so I take the relic blade. I also place my Captain on a bike, so dual-claws also has that wildcard of being stupid as hell on said bike, model-wise. lol.

Now, if I were to field a jump packing Captain, yes, I'd take matched claws. The increased escort squad size, plus the greater mobility provided by the jump pack, allows a captain to avoid hidden powerfist models that make that 3++ save a necessity.

 

The math is just SO close each way that it comes down to a playstyle choice, pure and simple.

[TyrionTheImp]

I just don't see why using a captain solely to "cut things" is a good idea, especially when matched up with Assault Squad (I'd go for Shrike, or a chaplain to boost the whole squad) or Assault Terminators (I'd take Lysander, just because he's a beast by himself) when there are better HQs for that. Captains are not the best CC Characters by any means so using them just for that seems wasteful to me. I personally always field Captains on bikes with RBs, it makes them more powerful all around (T(4)5, faster movement, and uses BS5 TL Bolters with hellfires) , while giving more mobility and adding flexibility to the army via Bike Squad Troops.

 

Back on topic though, yes, the Lightning Claws are better than a Relic Blade if you want a CC-Only Captain, but if you want a more all-around versatile Captain, the relic blade can be a much better choice, or even if you just want to give him a 3++ and that's why many people enjoy using Relic Blades as their weapon of choice on captains opposed to the twin lightning claws.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I just don't see why using a captain solely to "cut things" is a good idea, especially when matched up with Assault Squad (I'd go for Shrike, or a chaplain to boost the whole squad) or Assault Terminators (I'd take Lysander, just because he's a beast by himself) when there are better HQs for that.

 

Shrike removes combat tactics from the army, that is a huge change in how the list plays, and he costs 40 points more than the standard captain. It's nice if you're making a list around Shrike, but not otherwise. Lysander is a beast, but costs a whopping 200 points with no jump pack, and he also trashes combat tactics. I mean, for only 30 points more than Lysander, you can get a basic captain AND a librarian, and they fit in lysander's spot in the land raider! The chaplain's boost to an assault squad is about equal to the captain on the charge, and much weaker after the first round, and he doesn't give them less incoming damage against I4 the way a captain does.

 

Taking a simple 130 point character to act as leader and to kill enemies before they hit marines is one thing, scraping enough additional points for a land speeder or two rhinos and modifying a major special rule for the Codex in a way that only really suits certain lists is completely different. The big-point special characters are really the kind of thing you build an army around, not really just a useful tool to pick from the box to fill out a list.

 

Captains are not the best CC Characters by any means so using them just for that seems wasteful to me.

 

Who's better than a captain at cutting guys down before they kill marines (that is, I5 combat) in the marine Codex who doesn't also change the army rules and cost hugely more? Yes, Lysander or Calgar is a beast, but they're expensive and redefine the army.

[Hellios]

I prefer claws because your captain can't hurt my Wraithlord now ahahahahaha.

 

How is a model that moves 6" and charges 6" going to force my captain going along with an assault squad that moves 12" and charges 6" into combat? I'd have to screw up pretty badly to end up in that situation. If my captain is accompanying terminators, then who cares if he can poke the wraithlord with S6 when he's got 12+ S8 attacks riding around with him? This is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about useful roles, sure he can hurt a wrathlord on 6s like shrike, but that's not likely to be useufl, and I probably screwed up to get him there.

 

 

Either way it won't make a huge difference... between lcs and a rb... however when you get in that situation where oh... man I only have my captain left and he has a wraithlord... it might make a difference... Or if you are fighting an archon and you survived the first round of combat but only manged to inflict 1 wound due to a 2++ and are now about to get rolled because it goes first you might wish you had caused instant death to it...

 

and while you make a point about doing something wrong... what if the eldar player is good a did something right and you have no choice... you have a line of tanks and wraithlords to choose from either way you are likely to do squat... a relic blade has more chance against both... sure lcs might kill more orcs, guard, nids and guardians but space marines have these things called bolters... half of them should be dead anyway 1 less attack shouldn't make the difference... and again unless you are charging into another MEQ CC squad a captain with a relic blade should make the difference anyway... if you are charging into a CC unit that will challenge you... welll durr your doing something wrong... you choppa the dakka and dakka the choppa... even orks know that.

 

The point is that the rb allows you to be more able in more situations by yourself... not that it really matters your captain would never make it into combat with anything I cared about... it would either be killing your captain or a throw away unit. Oh but your captain has terminators with him... oh wait is that a whole 1,500pt space marine army vs 1 wraithlord... and you think the space marines will win... gee wizz batman you don't say? Guess what my Wraithlord won't be on its own... and your terminators would be dead after one round of shooting.

 

I'm not saying lcs are bad... my BT commander and one of my Chaos lords has Lcs... and some of my space wolves have wolf claws... but if I had relic blades in some of those armies I would be using them now and again at least...

[BearersOfSalvation]

Either way it won't make a huge difference... between lcs and a rb... however when you get in that situation where oh... man I only have my captain left and he has a wraithlord... it might make a difference...

 

Building lists around the idea that 'if I get into a really bad and unusual situation on the board, I have a crappy chance to do something instead of no chance' doesn't seem like good planning to me. Especially when the crappy chance (doing 3 wounds when you wound on a 6 while 1 wound kills you) comes at the expense of the model's primary function.

 

Or if you are fighting an archon and you survived the first round of combat but only manged to inflict 1 wound due to a 2++ and are now about to get rolled because it goes first you might wish you had caused instant death to it...

 

ID against T3 is one place where the relic blade is better, but why not bring that up as it's own point instead of burying it? That would provoke actual interesting discussion that might be useful to people.

 

and while you make a point about doing something wrong... what if the eldar player is good a did something right and you have no choice... you have a line of tanks and wraithlords to choose from either way you are likely to do squat...

oh wait is that a whole 1,500pt space marine army vs 1 wraithlord... and you think the space marines will win...

 

So how many points exactly is a line of tanks and wraithlords? You're actually doing what you accuse me of later, trying to pit one unit against an army. What I would do with a line of tanks and wraithlords is... not charge the wraithlords. Whether the captain has a RB or LCs, it doesn't matter, it's a losing move to get locked into combat with a fearless unit that you have very little chance of killing.

 

The point is that the rb allows you to be more able in more situations by yourself... not that it really matters your captain would never make it into combat with anything I cared about... it would either be killing your captain or a throw away unit.

 

Having a fast-moving specialized unit avoid one slow-moving unit that it's not good at killing anyway is really different than having an entire army avoid a fast-moving unit. Dodging a wratihlord (or drednought) with an assault squad is not difficult, preventing an assault squad for meleeing anything in your entire amry is a whole different thing.

 

Oh but your captain has terminators with him... oh wait is that a whole 1,500pt space marine army vs 1 wraithlord... and you think the space marines will win... gee wizz batman you don't say? Guess what my Wraithlord won't be on its own... and your terminators would be dead after one round of shooting.

 

I would never take a captain and run him around the battlefield fighting on his own, so why would I build a list under the assumption that he's going to run around alone? The circumstances where I'd use a captain would have him with an assault squad (really fast) or terminator squad (really heavy), completely ignoring his escort doesn't make any sense.

 

You don't really seem to be able to distinguish "I would not charge that particular slow-moving unit" and "I would bring the captain in conjunction with unit X" from "I would play my army so well you'd never hit anything important" and "my army is so great whatever unit you take will die after 1 round". That kind of baseless bragging really doesn't look as impressive as you think it does.

[Hellios]

Either way it won't make a huge difference... between lcs and a rb... however when you get in that situation where oh... man I only have my captain left and he has a wraithlord... it might make a difference...

 

Building lists around the idea that 'if I get into a really bad and unusual situation on the board, I have a crappy chance to do something instead of no chance' doesn't seem like good planning to me. Especially when the crappy chance (doing 3 wounds when you wound on a 6 while 1 wound kills you) comes at the expense of the model's primary function.

 

Or if you are fighting an archon and you survived the first round of combat but only manged to inflict 1 wound due to a 2++ and are now about to get rolled because it goes first you might wish you had caused instant death to it...

 

ID against T3 is one place where the relic blade is better, but why not bring that up as it's own point instead of burying it? That would provoke actual interesting discussion that might be useful to people.

 

and while you make a point about doing something wrong... what if the eldar player is good a did something right and you have no choice... you have a line of tanks and wraithlords to choose from either way you are likely to do squat...

oh wait is that a whole 1,500pt space marine army vs 1 wraithlord... and you think the space marines will win...

 

So how many points exactly is a line of tanks and wraithlords? You're actually doing what you accuse me of later, trying to pit one unit against an army. What I would do with a line of tanks and wraithlords is... not charge the wraithlords. Whether the captain has a RB or LCs, it doesn't matter, it's a losing move to get locked into combat with a fearless unit that you have very little chance of killing.

 

The point is that the rb allows you to be more able in more situations by yourself... not that it really matters your captain would never make it into combat with anything I cared about... it would either be killing your captain or a throw away unit.

 

Having a fast-moving specialized unit avoid one slow-moving unit that it's not good at killing anyway is really different than having an entire army avoid a fast-moving unit. Dodging a wratihlord (or drednought) with an assault squad is not difficult, preventing an assault squad for meleeing anything in your entire amry is a whole different thing.

 

Oh but your captain has terminators with him... oh wait is that a whole 1,500pt space marine army vs 1 wraithlord... and you think the space marines will win... gee wizz batman you don't say? Guess what my Wraithlord won't be on its own... and your terminators would be dead after one round of shooting.

 

I would never take a captain and run him around the battlefield fighting on his own, so why would I build a list under the assumption that he's going to run around alone? The circumstances where I'd use a captain would have him with an assault squad (really fast) or terminator squad (really heavy), completely ignoring his escort doesn't make any sense.

 

You don't really seem to be able to distinguish "I would not charge that particular slow-moving unit" and "I would bring the captain in conjunction with unit X" from "I would play my army so well you'd never hit anything important" and "my army is so great whatever unit you take will die after 1 round". That kind of baseless bragging really doesn't look as impressive as you think it does.

 

No I'm saying I'm playing Eldar ergo your fast moving units are slow compared to mine... thats how you win with eldar by dictating the game... and it isn't baseless bragging... mathmatically an Eldar army would have an easy time of killing a terminator unit with one round of shooting. What I don't suppose you got was that this was a subtle (or not) jibe at the whole one-up masnship thing you have going on. You also seem to be under the mistaken belief that you will always get to choose what happens... maybe everyone is your gaming group is crap and so you get to do this... however I like assume you play aginst some decent players...

 

Oh and you know why people take lone meltas and powerfists in tactical squads (some don't...) it's because they realise they might not always have the battle go the way they want so they take them for safety... better to have and not need than need and not have... Is it a losing move to charge a unit you might not be able to kill... maybe if you are winning... but if you are losing it could make the difference between a loss and a draw... bigger loss big deal... maybe in some tourneys... maybe not in a friendly game...

 

So yer try thinking before you type.

[BrotherWade]

While it might not solve the debate, when I used two captains; I took one with two lightning claws, one with a relic blade, put both on bikes and had them driving around the battlefield cutting bloody paths of carnage until shot/punched to death. I had pretty reasonable amount of success with both (baring the times a dreadnought came calling to them while they were engaged in CC and the time I was staring down Kharne/Abad. chaos list and I had nothing to lose after half my army got eatin). I would say play test with both kinds on your captain in your local playing area and find out which one works better.

[Tasche]

@ Bearersofsalvation

 

I personally use RB/SS combo, why? SS adds survivability and the RB with sustainability. A Captain with WS6 hitting on 3s Vs WS4 (ie. Avg Marines) and ST6 being able to wound on 2s vs T4 against the LCs Hitting on 3s but wounding on 4s. Sure you may get more hits in with the LC but with the RB, you have much more stopping power and surefire way to down targets. with the comfortability of a 3+ invulnerable save to keep me safe vs an iron halo's 4+.

 

Its all about play style but mathammer and probability reigns supreme on this topic, but hey, i would welcome a match up against your captain against mine.

[mowglie]

I just don't see that the Relic Blade comes out better in fights that I would typically encounter, LCs would have better performance in any fight I'm likely to encounter.

 

Most people take captains for fluff and equip them however they please. Only bike captains are really popular for their rules. They (and captains in LRs) almost always get the charge - and the math becomes more skewed when it's 5A vs 4A.

 

On the one hand, you're right. It is generally accepted that a 2xLC captain is slightly better vs MEQ. The thing is, the RB captain is also good vs MEQ, wheras the LC captain is not very good at all vs MCs or armor, and can't ID T3.

 

It's not that in isolation the RB is better than LCs. It's that most people feel they have better ways of dealing with T4 than bringing a 130+ point T4-killing assault specialist who needs a bodyguard and a transport.

 

Also a bike captain with two lightning claws looks kind of silly.