Troubles with Orks

[Hrvat]

A few weeks ago when I got tiered of the WHFB 8th edition I decided to get some 40k games. Since then I have faced Angels, Wolves, Templars, Tyranids and Orks. The first 4 armies game me a fun experience and I never felt that I was disadvantaged against them, though the Tyradnids had far more models than I was capable of killing in 5 turns.

 

The problem comes from facing Orks. There is so many of them and they are so shooty supported by strong CC capabilities.

 

My list(1750 pts):

Belial - Sword and SBolter

Librarian - TDA, SBolter

Squad Alpha - LCPair, PFist+AssC, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Beta - LCPair, PFist+AssC, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Gamma - LCPair, PFist+AssC, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Delta - CFist+CycloneML, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Epsylon - HFlamer+CFist+CStandard, 4xLCPair

Land Raider

 

I have 3 more squads with PWeapon+SBolter, 4xPFist+SBolter combination.

 

 

My opponent fields:

Mek - warp gun and power claw

Mek - warp gun and power claw

15 Tankhunters

15 Looters

15 Looters

30 Shooting Boyz with power claw nob

30 Shooting Boyz with power claw nob

3 Ork Drreadnoughts with CCW weapons (6A on the charge :) )

 

I have faced it three times and have been wiped out three times. The amount of terrain prevents me to make effective deep striking attacks and provides my opponents with just to much cover as I melt under their firepower. Those Looter squads are just horrible.

 

So honoured brethren do you have any advice how to deal with the force at hand.

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[Hellios]

My list(1750 pts):

Belial - Sword and SBolter

Librarian - TDA, SBolter

Squad Alpha - LCPair, PFist+AssC, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Beta - LCPair, PFist+AssC, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Gamma - LCPair, PFist+AssC, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Delta - CFist+CycloneML, 3xPFist+SBolter

Squad Epsylon - HFlamer+CFist+CStandard, 4xLCPair

Land Raider

 

My opponent fields:

Mek - warp gun and power claw

Mek - warp gun and power claw

15 Tankhunters

15 Looters

15 Looters

30 Shooting Boyz with power claw nob

30 Shooting Boyz with power claw nob

3 Ork Drreadnoughts with CCW weapons (6A on the charge :) )

 

Well Orks kill based on rolling lots of dice... this hurts you even more as you are taking Deathwing... Belial is pretty sucky as captains go... DA Libs suck compared to those in other codices and our terminators have inferior equipment (unless you mate allows you to use the newer stuff).

 

So can I assume you have nothing except what is in your list and the 3 squads you mention?

 

Because I would be tempted to put some Greenwing or Ravenwing in if you have it. Whirlwinds or Deathstorm drop pods (if you allow FW) are great for thinning out Orks... Land speeders with flamers while vulnerable (especially to the lootas) can cause a huge amount of damage and give orks the run around... even bike squads with flamers can destroy a 30 man unit of orks in a turn (although it would be ideal if they had been weakened already... because if you want to destroy a 30 man unit you will need some nice rolls... you don't want to fail and get caught in combat.)... again bikers don't like lootas.

 

If you are playing on a 6X4 table try and set your army at one extreme of the board (and maybe go second) so that none or all of his lootas are out of range... my preference would be to hammer the dreads then as they come towards you until the boyz get within stormbolter range.

 

I would keep the heavy flamer squad in reserve and try and deepstrike it behind the Ork army and out of LoS of the lootas but close to them (if possible). Now in an ideal situation you then toast at least one unit of lootas and he sends a dread or a unit of orks after you weakening his attack on your main force... this probably won't happen... but its worth a try.

 

See if your Ork player is cool using the bit in the FAQ that says with your opponents permission you may use the new rules for equipment if you want... that might help... Otherwise stick to it! Oh and FNP command terminator squad rocks! and extra attacks aint bad.

[breng77]

First, see if you can play on a table with about 25% terrain as is suggested in the BRB...it amazes me how many times on this forum that people have trouble against an opponent who is only playing in a way that benefits their army to the utmost. Second he has little that can even hurt a land raider (standard I guess, a crusader would be better against orks) Put your banner squad inside and ram it straight down his throat and assault a squad of lootas.

 

Bikes would be a nice addition as they are great for killing lootas, (outflank, flamer, assault, they wound you on 6s, likely win on combat resolution and sweeping advance) .

[Tanhausen]

Questions and proposals:

 

- Dreadnoughts... are they independent or a squadron? If squad, you're lucky, because immo = destroyed. POUND them with rending shots, meltas and basically anything that can "possibly" damage them.

- Lootas and Tankhunters: try to get upclose and personal. If possible, use the LR vs the lootas (both to wipe them and screen your units) and the unit inside to assault the tankhunters. If possible, go for a LRC, those hurricanes are golden vs orks.

- Unless a very wanted reason, I'd suggest you drop the libby and either go for 3 bikes with double melta (140 points) or a shooty dread.

 

Not much more to say right now :)

[HJL]

unfortunately the dreads cant be taken in squadrons, only separately.

 

it is going to be tough for you to beat an ork army like that one, i play orks myself and use horde tactics. the scariest thing in his list is going to be the lootas, d3 sr 7 shots a turn is going to force a lot of armor saves on your terminators. orks in general do not have a lot to pop high armor, you could try taking another land raider in there to even things out a little. unless he has vehicles you also have the advantage of maneuverability you might want to try holding a couple of squads in reserve and putting the rest on the table. let them come to you and hose down the boyz with concentrated fire for a couple of turns before he gets to assault you. your landraider should be able to take care of a few of those dreads, they arent very tough and even if they get a 4+ cover save you only need to stun them each turn to make them ineffective. dont forget you can shoot 2 separate targets with your landraider as well.

[BoonKin]

I suppose the list you are facing has little to no vehicles (that can travel up to 12").

 

Other have given good advice, but I suggest making changes to weaponaries in your list.

 

In this context, I would opt for more long range firepower, given the nature of orks. I suggest you take out the land raider and the librarian and put in 2 dreadnoughts with PC + ML, while taking out 2 ACs for another 2 Cyclones, or all Cyclones if you can muster. Belial should also be given a SB + PW too.

 

The reason is simple. Just move (forward or backward) and shoot. You have 7 MLs, 2 PC and tons of SB shots to counter any horde (or mech) armies out there. You got enough CC capabilities (PF, LC and PW). ACs are fantastic but the thing is that there are nasty things that can dominate the 24" killzone and 1 (or 2) ACs is not enough to do the job without sacrificing your position.

 

If I remember correctly, the list I suggested used to be the favourite list of the esteemed Owen Rees :P

 

EDIT: And yes of course I assumed you are upgrading an apothecary as well.

[Tanhausen]

Are you suggesting he out-shoots a Lootas list with Dreads and CML?

 

Just quick numbers... 15 orks getting 2 shots each, thats 30*.33*.83*.13= 1 dead terminator... which is bearable.

 

15 orks 2 shots vs AV12 dread (for immo or worse)= 30*.33*.13*.5= 64% of immo or worse through pen

= 30*.33*.13*.13= 16% of immo with glancing

80% chances you will get immo if 1 squad shoots at your dread

[aekold]

Add an apothecary to negate a dead terminator each turn. This makes the ork shooting much less impressive.

[BoonKin]

Are you suggesting he out-shoots a Lootas list with Dreads and CML?

 

Just quick numbers... 15 orks getting 2 shots each, thats 30*.33*.83*.13= 1 dead terminator... which is bearable.

 

15 orks 2 shots vs AV12 dread (for immo or worse)= 30*.33*.13*.5= 64% of immo or worse through pen

= 30*.33*.13*.13= 16% of immo with glancing

80% chances you will get immo if 1 squad shoots at your dread

 

 

Why is it not possible? I believe focus fire, target priority, and manuvering could even out the odds.

 

And don't forget, you are moving and firing templates and they don't get armor saves. And they are NOT FEARLESS, just imagine the morale check after the shooting phase is done.

 

There are many ways to skin a cat, but I think my methodoloy requires more fitnese and thinking to play, which to me personally is more interesting :P

[breng77]

The problem with that logic is that Lootas are most often deployed in/behind cover, so they will get a 4+ save, and if there is a squad of 15 you need to kill 5 of them and then they test LD on a ld 10. Unless they are really bunched up that is unlikely. Not saying it cannot happen but while you are shooting (at most 5 missiles a turn) they are shooting back and other orks are bearing down on your termis.

[Hrvat]

Lots of interesting replies.

 

The problem with this guy is that everything hangs in the back, forcing me to advance. 15 Tankhunters has been enought to blast my Land Raider by turn 3 no matter where it gets deployed since these are assault weapons. Looters and Tankhunters deploy in some terrain with dreads close buy to fight off any attacker while the shooting boyz move about back and forth pumping fire as they go.

 

On my second game a managed to get the charge with HFlamer+Lightning Claws out of the LR into one of the Looters, killed most of them only to countercharged by Boyz and a Dread. Termies just melted away. Not to mention Shock guns ignore my Armour forcing me to relly on In saves or cover. I am using only Dark Angels codex and am limited with the models that are listed above.

 

I could try droppodding (borrow pods from my C:SM army) Loganwing but that just wouldn't be the same. I want to play pure Deathwing just like I played in 3rd and 4th edition.

 

I have currently two unpainted AOBR dread that could join the force but I don't know what good would they be.

[Ash]

I realise you want to use the list you have but to be honest it boils down to the 24 inch shooting range of the army you are fielding, your opponent can hang back and shoot you at will.

 

Anything can kill an orc you don't need to send terminators and untill you use as many blast templates, flamer templates and ranged weapons you will struggle agianst a horde list like this.

 

If you considered drop pods then why not consider whirlwinds even deathwing need fire support

[Hellios]

If you considered drop pods then why not consider whirlwinds even deathwing need fire support

 

If it makes you feel better model it as a Battlebarg and say its orbital support... and then we get to laugh if lootas take it out XD.

[Tanhausen]

I agree, its not an issue of hitting HARD... its a matter of fire rate.

 

Getting into a shoot-out with orks or IG is seldomly a good idea for us DW.

 

Since you have the AoBR dreads... I suggest you take a plasma cannon/missile option... and keep walking towards them. Even with the normal S6 attacks, you are better off tarpitting the lootas than allowing them to roll bags of dice vs your terminators.

 

Also, use wisely your LR (I'm sure you can agree to counts-as-LRC... and those hurricane bolter and Assault cannon WILL make a difference vs Orks)) for screening.

 

Not much more to say... try and get some games and post the conclusions youcome up with :P

[breng77]

I'm not really sure how 15 tank bustas are taking out a lnad raider by turn 3 unless you have awful luck, their rokkit launchas are only S8 so they can never manage more than a glance, and with 15 shots the odds suggest about 1 glance per turn, and out of that you probably only really care about immobilized results. Which Should occur 1 in every 6 glances, so in a 6 turn game the Tankbustas should be able to immobilize the LR one time. They also only have 24" range so it is pretty easy to stay out of that range.

[BoonKin]

I realise you want to use the list you have but to be honest it boils down to the 24 inch shooting range of the army you are fielding, your opponent can hang back and shoot you at will.

 

Anything can kill an orc you don't need to send terminators and untill you use as many blast templates, flamer templates and ranged weapons you will struggle agianst a horde list like this.

 

If you considered drop pods then why not consider whirlwinds even deathwing need fire support

 

I agree with this. That was why I suggested using CMLs and shooty dreads. And I must admit I didnt knew you have limitations on the models you are able to field..

 

Unless you have a whirlwind (or two) in force, it is quite difficult to approach this army with minimal risk. I reckon that there is no point assaulting this army in CC unless you disable the dreads first, and the amount of short range firepower is just not worth risking it. While it is true that other components of his army will put the pressure into you (advancing), my previous post on shooting will still apply. You just need to trust cover and your superior skills to keep you alive enough ultimately to win by the mission.

 

As Tanhausan said, play him a couple more times using different approaches and let us know how it went :whistling:

[Tanhausen]

Re-thinking... and limited to your current resources...

 

1.- If you could get 1 more claws terminators, I'd suggest placing 1 in each squad, mainly due to wound allocation plus Ini 4 hitting

2.- Go for DWA with the 5 squads, you get 3 in turn 1... being the 3 AC ones. Try and land some 20 cm (8 inches?) in front of the lootas and the rest of his army. You are going to take some PAIN, but probably each squad will survive with 3 members (5 having shot)... these being sarge, claws and AC, which should CHARGE the infantry. If possible, make multiple assaults, because of fearless you will probably be doing just as many casualties by your hitting as by combat result... TO EVERY SQUAD.

3.- Keep 1 squad of these 3 to counter charge: try and save the PF, so you can assault the dreads when they to aid the assaulted lootas.

4.- Bear in mind the mission objectives: you now have 2 squads (HF and CML), screened/transported by the LRC (you should land close so in your movement you can cover your self with the huge profile)... they score and you can go wherever needed.

 

And they are to be supported by YOUR dreadnoughts (if possible, Missile and lasscannon), whose main target should be HIS dreads.

 

This is not the best of game plans and it lives out of "5 turns, I lock all your army, hopefully I can tarpit you while I get 2 objectives ... 1 for you.. I win". Not a beautiful strategy but probably will deliver results.

 

For future purchases... try and get/trade some bits so you can balance a bit the squads. And probably get 1 vindicator at least :whistling:

 

Hope it helps!

[hazardousZERO]

Best thing I can think of is go heavy on flamers. He doesn't get armor saves against them for the most part. Also think about changing the PFist on your special weapons guy to a ChainFist. That way if they get near those dreads you can pop them real easy. Last I would take more Lightning claws per squad. Something like 3 but at least 2.

[breng77]

THe problem with going heavy on flamers is that a good ork player will spread out and you will kill maybe 5 orks, and then will be getting assaulted, (or assaulting ) the orks, which is usually bad for a 5 man termi squad. Also, on the chain fist issue, the ork deff dread will kill you likely before you get to use that chain fist. (6 attacks on the charge that ignore your armor, so it comes down to rolling a 5+ invul save, then even if your chain fists survive, you are only likely to take out a couple of attacks, and get killed in round 2 of the assault.

[RayJ]

Orks are one of the toughest match-ups for Deathwing, with many of the reasons being listed above. Just to clarify, here's what's happening behind the scenes that is making it that much harder for you in 5th edition:

 

Orks got an increase in mid- & long-range shooting along with a general points decrease.

Cover saves in 5th edition are much more prevalent, giving aries with poor armor a better footing

True line of sight increases the number of models able to shoot at your small elite army, which doesn't benefit much from the cover saves.

Orks have longer-ranged weaponry than most of Deathwing

 

Something to take note of is that by using ONLY Deathwing, you are limiting yourself to about 5 options in our codex while the Ork player gets to use his entire list to make something balanced. If you are not willing to purchase a couple of new items to work with you are going to greatly hinder your ability to deal with the Orks.

 

That said, here is how I would build a Deathwing force to take on Orks. This is going to be list tailoring a little bit, but can be made more generalized with a couple of different weapons. You might need to purchase the vehicles, but limiting yourself to a single vehicle is rather pointless. You're better off just running another foot squad in its place at that point.

 

1750 Deathwing List:

 

130 Belial

280 Deathwing Squad with Apothecary, Standard, Heavy Flamer, 1 Chainfist, & 1 Dual Lightning Claws

250 Deathwing Squad with Assault Cannon, 1 Chainfist, & 1 Dual Lightning Claws

250 Deathwing Squad with Assault Cannon, 1 Chainfist, & 1 Dual Lightning Claws

255 Land Raider Crusader with Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter

255 Land Raider Crusader with Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter

165 Venerable Dreadnought with Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, & Extra Armor

165 Venerable Dreadnought with Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, & Extra Armor

 

If I am expecting more vehicles from the enemy, or if I am building for all comers, I will put missile launcher and lascannon on both dreads and drop venerable & extra armor, then I will make one of the crusaders a standard land raider. For the push up to 2000 points I would add a third land raider.

 

Orks have a pretty hard time dealing with AV14 during the shooting phase. They normally use def-rollas and power claws to do the trick. Running 2 crusaders gives you the ability to deliver 2 units in close support of each other to really put the hurt on a single point in their line. The combined shooting of the crusaders and terminators should inflict enough casualties to make charging the orks not so bad.

 

Remember, when you assault the orks, not only do the bonus attacks from charging swap places, but the orks are only striking at Strength 3, which really limits their ability to hurt terminators. At that point, it's only the Nob with the klaw that will hurt you. Depending on how stretched out the Ork player is, you can also limit the attacks coming into you by hitting on just one side.

 

If I remember correctly, the tankhammer is not a power weapon, so it should be pretty easy to roll over them when you get the charge. Sure it's S10, but you'll still have your 2+ saves. Just don't tank shock them with the land raiders :P

 

For dealing with the dreads, assault cannons and multi-meltas should be able to deal with them. Once they are imobilized, you should be fine just walking around them. You shouldn't have too hard of a time getting cover saves if it is using mega-blasters, and the rest of the weapons won't do much to your terminators.

 

If you go with the long-range shooting, it should be easy to deal with the dreads from range, and the short range guns should be able to mop up the tankbustas rather quickly. Backpedal to give yourself an extra turn or 2 of shooting and they'll be mostly ineffective by the time they reach your lines.

[shabbadoo]

This is a puny force, and is completely at odds with the size army I would normally field, but against the listed Ork force I'd give it a go.

 

HQ

 

Master Belial: terminator armor, twin lightning claws, Fearless, Independent Character, Rites of Battle.

 

ELITES

 

Venerable Dreadnought “Bors”: assault cannon, dreadnought close combat weapon w/ built-in heavy flamer, smoke launchers, searchlight, extra armor.

Drop Pod

 

Venerable Dreadnought “Revered Venerari”: plasma cannon, dreadnought close combat weapon w/ built-in heavy flamer, smoke launchers, searchlight, extra armor.

Drop Pod

 

TROOPS

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad 1 “Adamanta”: Deathwing Standard, Apothecary, 2 x thunder hammer & storm shield, 3 x lightning claws.

Land Raider Crusader

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad 2 “Malignus”: heavy flamer, 1 x thunder hammer & storm shield, 3 x lightning claws.

Land Raider

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad 3 “Vigilus”: assault cannon, 4 x storm bolter & power fist.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1,750 pts. (16 Infantry, 6 Vehicles)

 

Deployment Pattern:

 

[LRC][LR]

---[s3]-----

 

Position the LR and the LRC according to which enemy unit you ultimately want Belial & Co. and Squad 2 to Assault. Belial goes in the LRC along with Squad 1. Squad 2 goes in the LR. Squad 3 hides behind the LRs. At this point, the Deathwing are basically immune to damage from the entire Ork force, other than the Tankbustas which can only force a glancing hit on a Land Raider with their rokkit launchas(and they have to roll moderately well to even achieve that). Oh, and a Shock Attack Gun double 6 prayer shot. If you can deploy both Land Raiders within range of the Tankbustas on Turn 1 then don’t even move. Instead, hammer them with everything the LR and LRC have in an effort to break them. Once the Tankbustas are gone, you will pretty much be dictating the battles, as the Orks will pretty much have to come and get YOU with their Deffdreads and power klaws. If the Tankbustas are not immediately in range, proceed as follows:

 

Turn 1- The LR advances at 12”; the LR targeting a Deffdread with a twin-lascannon. The LRC advances 6”, targeting the Tankbustas with its assault cannons if they are in range(if you think you will fall short, move 12” and shoot them with the assault cannons; if not in range at all, shoota a Deffdread with assault cannons). You may maneuver the LRs and Squad 3 to block LOS to Squad 3 completely, or to block LOS to Squad 3 from all but one Ork unit, which will be Squad 3’s target to fire upon. If possible, Squad 3 should fire on the Tankbustas in aide of the LRs to kill them off immediately. If the Tankbutas are not a viable target due to deployment/movement, keep Squad 3 out of LOS completely and have them run to keep up with the Land Raiders, as needed.

 

Turn 2- Land Raider advances again, shooting at a Deffdread again with a twin- lascannon. The LRC moves 6” and unloads on the Tankbustas with everything, if they are still around. If they are not, a unit of Lootas should be the next target. If they are both out of range, hose down one Shoota Boyz mob- especially one on the fringe if possible. You may also wish to open up LOS to the same Shoota Boyz mob for Squad 3 to fire upon in hopes of reducing the Shoota Boyz mob to nothing, or to a remnant that will be combat ineffective or that may break and run(never to return if it is below 15 models). If either Drop Pod shows up, they should target a spot very near to the side of the Tankbustas or either Lootas unit. Unless the terrain these units are in is HUGE, the inertial guidance system of the Drop Pod should put you very near to the unit. Make sure you deploy near a spot where the teardrop flamer template will do the most damage once your Venerable Dreadnought deploys. Also, try not to put the Venerable Dreadnought’s back to ANY enemy unit, as even the Shoota Boyz will likely glance even a Venerable Dreadnought into Wrecked/combat ineffective status. Even still, you should be able to use the Drop Pod to shield the Dreadnought from fire too, likely making it obscured to shots from the rear at the very least. Any little thing you can do to draw fire from your Dreadnoughts/LRs is a good thing! :huh:

 

Turn 3- Now is likely the time when your Land Raiders will move 12” and deploy their embarked units. The LRs should target what they can kill best(LR goes for a Deffdread, the LRC for high value targets, or a Deffdread). Belial and Squad 1should be jumping the Shoota Boyz who have not been mauled yet. Be sure to keep Belial the hell away from the Nob with power klaw, as he can be targeted by that power klaw if the Nob is within 2” of just a single Ork in base-to-base contact with Belial. So, put him on the fringe when you deploy. Better still, if the Ork player has the Nob up front, or you can get to him anyways, lock that Nob up with another unit member so that the Nob cannot use the 6” pile in move to get close enough to Belial to power klaw his face in. Belial and his unit will dish out 21 lightning claw attacks on the charge(6 at WS 5), backed up by 8 thunder hammer attacks. If you actually lose combat with the 30 Shoota Boyz somehow, you were cursed from the start. The Shoota Boyz should lose, and lose badly, meaning that they will likely take a metric crap-ton of No Retreat! wounds too(Orks are strong in close combat, but their biggest Achilles heel is close combat as well- I cannot stress enough how important it is to take advantage of this!!!). The best thing here is that the Shoota Boyz will still be locked up with your Terminators, meaning you cannot be shot on the Ork turn by anything(i.e. mostly the Big Meks), and so will likely finish them off in the Ork turn and then be free to move and Assault something else in YOUR next turn. 30 Ork mobs make this very, very possible. 20 Ork squads usually get wiped out instead, and so, there you, looking dumb and ready to be shot up by the entire enemy army. If possible, have Squad 2 assault another Ork unit that is close by, whatever it may be, such that it has at least one unit member within 12” of the Deathwing Standard. If you make that happen, Squad 2 will also get +1 to their Attacks characteristic and so wreak some havoc of their own- on the charge, that will be 15 lightning claw attacks, 4 thunder hammer attacks, and 4 power fist attacks if they are within 12” of the Deathwing Standard. Be sure to fire that heavy flamer to soften up any larger unit before charging it too. As Squad 2 lacks character support, the heavy flamer is there to help thin the ranks of larger enemy units that could overwhelm them. So, roast some stuff if you can!

 

I’ll stop there, as there is not much point in progressing further(i.e. decisions to be made beyond this point will depend on what has actually happened). :) What we do know is that, depending on the scenario/deployment, Turn 2 or 3 will be “The Turn of Decision”, meaning the point in the game when the Deathwing player must decide to commit their forces so as to inflict as much destruction on the enemy as is possible. The Deathwing player must be very aggressive toward the units that are the most dangerous(i.e. the Tankbustas, followed by the Lootas), but that definitely doesn’t mean driving straight at them and dumping Deathwing squads into close combat as soon as is possible. You must choose to time your attack so as to be the most advantageous, which will usually mean disembarking everything on the same turn and hitting the enemy lines en masse. There is not a lot in this army, so there is not a lot of room for mistakes- everything must be used to its full potential whenever possible. The best case scenario will have one or both of the Drop Pods arriving on “The Turn of Decision”, and then you will likely hit a slightly weakened enemy very hard with everything you’ve got.

 

As if I needed to state the obvious, a refused flank tactic will work very well for a small force such as this.