2 rule questions

[Hear da Lamentation]

1. When you attach Wolf Guard to Grey Hunter squads (so lets say you have 3 WG and attach one to each of 3 GH packs) - do they count as a kill point? So when the final GH pack gets killed, the enemy get an additional kill point because of the WG?

 

2. Y'thgaarl Genestealers (forgive the spelling.) When they reserve into "terrain" the rules state that if models cannot fit into the terrain then "they are destroyed". Does this apply only to the models which cannot fit in - or the unit as a whole?

 

Thanks,

 

H.D.L.

[LPetersson]

1. When you attach Wolf Guard to Grey Hunter squads (so lets say you have 3 WG and attach one to each of 3 GH packs) - do they count as a kill point? So when the final GH pack gets killed, the enemy get an additional kill point because of the WG?

Thanks,

H.D.L.

 

There is currently no clear ruling on this so the best you're gonna get are opinions and debate :)

 

My opinion is that no, you don't give a KP because the WG now counts as being a part of the squad. This also being why a WG can capture and objective when the squad around him has been killed, IMO.

[dswanick]

1. The Codex:Space Wolves FAQ is not entirely clear on this. It does state clearly that a WG model split off to lead another pack is now a part of that pack and does not give up a seperate KP and must be killed with the pack for the pack to yield a KP. It does not clearly state what happens to the WG pack KP if the pack no longer exists at the time of deployment because all members are split off to lead other packs. As a Wolves player, I would like to say that since the pack doesn't exist it can't give up a KP, but in fairness it may well be that the pack confers a KP when all the WG models have been killed - so a WG pack of 6 models all split off to lead 6 GH packs would yield a total of 7 KP if all models were wiped out. But this is something that you should probably discuss with your opponent as the rules and FAQ are vague.

 

2. This rule is written mostly similar to the BRB Deep Strike rules - which affect the entire unit if any model can't be validly deployed. It seems reasonable to me then that this rule should also affect the entire unit, destroying the unit.

[Valerian]

1. When you attach Wolf Guard to Grey Hunter squads (so lets say you have 3 WG and attach one to each of 3 GH packs) - do they count as a kill point? So when the final GH pack gets killed, the enemy get an additional kill point because of the WG?

 

No, just one Kill Point is awarded to the opponent for destroying your single Grey Hunter unit (regardless of whether a Wolf Guard Leader has been assigned).

 

2. Y'thgaarl Genestealers (forgive the spelling.) When they reserve into "terrain" the rules state that if models cannot fit into the terrain then "they are destroyed". Does this apply only to the models which cannot fit in - or the unit as a whole?

 

I haven't looked at the 5th Edition Tyranid Codex, but if you have written the rule the same way as it appears in their book, then it is clear that only the models that do not/cannot fit within the piece of terrain are destroyed; otherwise the rule would say that "the unit" is destroyed (as it does for Deep Striking units with models that can't be deployed). Since it does not state "the unit", then it would only affect those specific models.

 

Valerian

[DV8]

1. Similar principle to combat squads, the number of Kill Points your army has is determined by the number of units you place on the field. A 10-man tactical squad in a Drop Pod may only be worth 2 Kill Points on paper (1 for the squad, 1 for the pod), if when the unit enters the table Turn 1 and you combat squad the unit into two 5-man units, destroying all of them will yield 3 Kill Points to the enemy (1 for each 5-man squad, 1 for the pod).

 

Point 1: Since Wolf Guard must be attached to their respective packs during Deployment, should all members of a Wolf Guard pack be assigned, the Wolf Guard unit ceases to exist. Thus it is theoretically no longer a unit that can be destroyed.

 

Point 2: The Space Wolves FAQ states that "When a Wolf Guard model joins another unit because of his 'Pack Leader' ability he becomes part of that unit to all intents and purposes. ... This also applies to the calculation of kill points and victory points - the Wolf Guard who have been split off from their original Wolf Guard unit count as part of their assigned unit in all respects ... because the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are attached to these new squads, he would not score a kill point for killing those squads unless he kills ALL of the models in those packs, including the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders."

 

This reinforces point one, whereby once attached, the Wolf Guard no longer count as part of the original Wolf Guard pack, but their attached pack, for the duration of the game for all intents and purposes. Since a unit cannot be destroyed (or treated as destroyed) during deployment, and the tallying of kill points only begins once both sides have deployed and the first player takes their first turn, a unit that never was cannot thereby be "destroyed" to yield a Kill Point.

 

2. Ymgarl Genestealers - much like units disembarking from a wrecked transport surrounded by the enemy. Any specific models that cannot be deployed are treated as destroyed (assuming they are forced to emergency disembark and thus pinned the following turn). So in answer to your question, it's referring to individual Genestealers, not the entire unit.

 

@Valerian - damn you and your ninja skills. Although I posted in detail explanations behind the reason/verdict, so in theory does that mean I still win despite you ninja-ing me? (is there a rule that backs me up there?... :pirate: )

 

 

DV8

[Valerian]

@Valerian - damn you and your ninja skills. Although I posted in detail explanations behind the reason/verdict, so in theory does that mean I still win despite you ninja-ing me? (is there a rule that backs me up there?... :P )

 

DV8

 

If there is a rule, then I'm sure you will find it. Also, admittedly, you did provide much better explanations than I bothered to.

 

V

[Skalver]

Point 1: Since Wolf Guard must be attached to their respective packs during Deployment, should all members of a Wolf Guard pack be assigned, the Wolf Guard unit ceases to exist. Thus it is theoretically no longer a unit that can be destroyed.

 

The wording says that the Wolf Guard may be assigned to a pack "before the battle". Just curious as to whether this means:

 

1. Before you even see your opponents list. i.e. at the moment you choose your army.

2. After you see your opponents list but before you roll for first turn / deployment.

3. After you roll for deployment but before your opponent deploys.

4. At the beginning of your own deployment.

5. At the moment any squad enters play (i.e. if a squad enters via drop pod you can decide at the last minute which WG is with them).

 

Can you take a unit of Wolf Guard, say for example you take 3 with Combi-Flamers and 3 with Combi-Meltas then when you see your opponents list you might assign the meltas to your GH squads if your opponent is mech or the flamers to the squads if the opponent is horde.

[DV8]

Point 1: Since Wolf Guard must be attached to their respective packs during Deployment, should all members of a Wolf Guard pack be assigned, the Wolf Guard unit ceases to exist. Thus it is theoretically no longer a unit that can be destroyed.

 

The wording says that the Wolf Guard may be assigned to a pack "before the battle". Just curious as to whether this means:

 

1. Before you even see your opponents list. i.e. at the moment you choose your army.

2. After you see your opponents list but before you roll for first turn / deployment.

3. After you roll for deployment but before your opponent deploys.

4. At the beginning of your own deployment.

5. At the moment any squad enters play (i.e. if a squad enters via drop pod you can decide at the last minute which WG is with them).

 

Can you take a unit of Wolf Guard, say for example you take 3 with Combi-Flamers and 3 with Combi-Meltas then when you see your opponents list you might assign the meltas to your GH squads if your opponent is mech or the flamers to the squads if the opponent is horde.

 

You assign/attach your Wolf Guard when you deploy your army. So you would decide at option 4, as you begin your own deployment, you assign/attach your Wolf Guard to any packs you want, provided that they are legally allowed to do so (Skyclaws, for example, may not have attached Wolf Guard, nor can another Wolf Guard unit).

 

So with your example, you are perfectly in your right to, when deploying, attach either the combi-flamer or combi-melta Wolf Guard to your Grey Hunter packs based on who you're facing (which is part of the flexibility of the Wolf Guard - albeit your methodology is a bit wasteful - and why Wolf Guard are a bit pricier).

 

Note that with Drop Podding units, any Wolf Guard assigned to them must have been done so during deployment, similarly a pack of Wolf Guard that intend to Drop Pod (or say a pack of Wolf Scouts OBELing) in must have been assigned/attached to other packs before the game begins. Once Scout moves start, the game has begun and such assignments are impossible.

 

 

DV8

[Hear da Lamentation]

Than ks guys - great answers as usual. At first I felt it was like the deepstrike rule where all are killed. However, it doesnt say "the unit is destoyed" and does sound like the disembark rule - so sounds good to me.

 

The WG rule also sounds correct. You split them off and make 1 unit. This isn't like a HQ who can then leave the unit at a later date .....

 

Nice one Wolves !

 

(There is a rule question appearing on the Tyranid Deathstar post about Thunderhammers which would also be good to have a ruling on. Seems odd to me.)