Armored Support in a Jumper List?

[jbarket]

Hey guys,

 

I was just looking in the army list forum and saw a list close to mine (all jumpers), but running Baals as support. I was curious what you guys thought about that.

 

So far, I've been sticking solely to troops. First and foremost because I quite like infantry, but really as a matter of survivability. A lot of the aim of my army is to give them target priority problems by overloading the table with jump troops. My thought has been that, even if I put 3x Baals on the table all outflanking, it's going to be very clear to my opponent what to do with them. Everyone is loading down with MLs and MGs, and with only 2-3 targets, it seems like they wouldn't last long.

 

Admittedly, that's at least a turn or two of shooting where they aren't shooting at my jumpers, but I'm not a fan of suiciding units.

 

So what do you think? Is it suicide, or is it effective?

[rocketrollrebel]

My current flesh tearers tourny list is mostly all jumping assault marines and I've been rolling a lone flame storm baal and its been a champ just about every game. I either scout it and the jumpers catch up or outflank it (which seems to be working the best right now). So I say go for it. Especially since you have 3 you should be ok.

[bulley]

I could see Baal's working, coming in from flanks during a game to support your DoA assault maybe even try and create walls for the first turn to provide cover when they come in from reserve.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you take a SR then it lends itself well to taking a Furioso.

[Redfinger]

I would say no for two reasons;

 

1. You already hit on this, target priority. An av 13 is going to draw all of your opponents fire, most likely rendering your Baal's useless, ouch! This is one of the advantages of a jumpist, presenting unfavorable targets to your oponent. I think you will see this alot more as Dark Eldar come out, they are a shooty army.

 

2. 3 Baal's will cost 245 points! That is a decent VV or HG, if you remove one of those elements from a jump list you loose efficency.

 

I guess a third reason is that BA doesn't run hybrid well, at 2k there are options but, this would not be the approach to take.

 

Save your points, take a VV or HG, it will work better.

[jbarket]

Right. I mean, I have no plans to run a genuine hybrid list. If I run armored support, we're talking deep striking/outflanking fast heavy hitters. No traditional transports or line up and shoot armored support for sure.

 

The SR would be great if it actually held 12 JP equipped troops and a Dreadnought, but to take a full 10 man RAS, I have to drop the packs... and that's not a great option.

 

The points value is really what I'm looking at. 3 Baals is actually 345pt, without sponsons. That's almost 1.5 fully equipped RAS jumpers, or 1 fully equipped jumper squad and 2 MM Attack Bikes. That's 2x MG, 1x PF and 2x MM all with armor saves and the ability to distribute wounds for the same price.

 

The only real advantage I see to the Baal is that it's mobile cover. 4x MG HG or 3x MM Attack Bikes seem like much better choices for the points.

[gustmic]

You need all the bodies you can muster.

/gustmic

[JamesI]

I guess I'll disagree with the previous advise.

 

I run near all jumpers (1 5 man RAS in a razorback, the rest is jump packs) and a couple vindicators, perhaps a predator as support. Works great, mobile cover and can keep the enemy busy shooting the vehicles while the assault guys get close.

[HERO]

3/3 helps with all list possibilities.

[I am Legion]

See, I'm used to running the jump pack army. The way I see it. 13 armour is awesome early on in the game. Move the baals up a bit and then just have them whittle down units for the RAS. I did want to fit 3 in instead of that 3xA.Bike/MM but I'll see what happens after this trial run.

[LittleRuss]

I have been debating on running two baals for support with my jump list or the full three. I am curious if sinking the 300+ points is really worth it so maybe two is just necessary. I am also unsure if sponsons are necessary on the tank to lol.

[gustmic]

The reasons that you need as many bodies as you can possibly have in an all-jumper list are:

 

1) Sure Baals are nice. But what are you looking for when you want to include them? Mobile cover as suggested by JamesI? Support?

What are the Baals' role? I would guess to do what they do best - anti-infantry. But I would say that is something we as BA have an abundance of. We charge and we maim in close combat.

Want Baals for Anti-Tank? Well, you've got meltaguns and infernus pistols to do that job.

You want to clean up a bit before you deep strike? Well, that's nice but do you really want to expose side armour for that (you effectively need to get to within 24" to use the Balls optimally)?

If you want some support I believe that the way to go is either all-jumpers Vanguard Veterans or Devestators (Missile launcher spam).

 

2) Vehicles vs Infantry. The problem you may face is that your opponent will have long-range AT weaponry. It will target the few vehicle that you have and they will fairly easily be taken out/suppressed.

With only infantry (jumpers with or without Devastators) his AT-weaponry is not as effective and he has more problems in terms of target priority when choosing between shooting at similar units.

I believe that Blood Angels don't do hybrid in a great way.

 

3) DoA drop. Alright. We have a nice advantage that makes us unique and that works to our advantage. We can actually get a deep strike army that not only works, but also that is deadly.

In the 4th ed. of W40k and with our pdf-codex the way to play was to use mobile cover and it still works alright. Now, things have changed and cover saves can be found in abundance so if you are jumping across the board there is no longer need for mobile cover. We have Sanguinary Priests for that.

Now, if you spend points on vehicles you will have fewer bodies as 75% of your reserved units come in on turn 2. Put points on vehicles, did you? You will lack bodies when you drop because those few units that do land close to the enemy will take a lot of shots after they have dropped down and are standing in the open. That's why if you want to be able to utilize the Descent of Angels rule you bring Sanguinary Priest in the form of Elites of Novitiates within the Honour Guard unit. You need FNP when you land. And you need sufficient number of troops after the enemy has fired everything at you after your drop. What's left you kill and maim with.

Any vehicles that the enemy has had was shoot up by your melta guns and infernus pistols. The nasty troops you need to take down, you take down with you Vanguard Veterans.

 

Now, the nice thing about this set up is that you can afford to jump across the board if that is what you need to do (like if you opponent decides to go second and will reserve everything).

 

 

My 2 cents.

 

/gustmic

 

Visit my WIP blog on an all-jumpers list of 2000pts

[I am Legion]

@ gustmic - Those are all very valid points regarding how BA seem to play these days. And you hit something I thought of last night as well. Just Marines and maybe Attack bikes. Just like in the good old days of the PDF. I was even looking at the VV before. they are pricy, but our codex makes them as good as they can get. I say we flood the table with people, and have 3 teams of 2xA.Bike w/MM for 300 points. Maybe take 2-3 S.Priests in the army at 1750 along with a Reclusiarch or even a SPCL Character...

 

Honestly this is like the 4th decent build the BA community has come across for this edition. Now to test it out.