More SW DIY Fluff Questions

[The Smiling Bandit]

I wanted to run this by some Space Wolf specialists rather than leave it to be mostly ignored by the maelstrom over at Dakka, which is where the idea originated. It's not my idea, I'm ashamed to say, but I think it sounds like a really good one for what I'm going for with Space Wolves, and I wanted to see if anyone had any issues with it.

 

My problem is that I really like the way the SW codex plays, I'm just not a very big fan of Vikings. I brought this up, and a guy at Dakka pointed out that, technically speaking, there's really nothing in the SW fluff that suggests ALL the tribes on Fenris are particularly Nordic, so it's entirely plausible that there's a tribe wandering around on Fenris that's more Germanic or even Celtic in character, they simply don't get recruited from as much as the (presumably dominant) Nordic-flavored tribes because, really, the only thing particularly Viking-like about the Space Wolves is their naming conventions.

 

So I was thinking of doing a Lost Company with either a more Germanic or Celtic bent - I haven't decided which yet, though Germanic would probably fit a lot better. Really, no major fluff changes or anything, mostly just things like a Wolf Lord named Wikerus instead of Skold.

 

Does it sound plausible, or is it a heretical notion to the Sons of Russ?

[Growler67]

Sure it's plausible and it doesn't HAVE to be a lost company to be either. Fenris isn't a purely icy world nor strictly fjord laden either. There are hills and mountains and so on, so that means the tribes from across the breadth of the planet would be different enough to flavor your Company/Army any way you like. We are the Sons of Russ, not the "Viking Sons of Russ" and so there is NO specific canon that states the Space Wolves have to be Nordic in nature and flavor.

 

Don't forget the pics and share some of your fluff if you like.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Well, I'd go Lost Company simply because the current 12 Wolf Lords are all accounted for, and I want to go with my own. Still trying to come up with a good reason for them to have left the Fang.

[Growler67]

Any campaign would send them away from the Fang and if encountering the forces of Chaos the risk to getting cut off and lost in the Warp increases, less likely with green skins and so on. Keep in mind that if you stick tightly to a Lost Company, then they would be more closely modelled as the 13th Company. Maybe not so much "wolf-bitten" but lack of heavy support and logistical resupply. How long they've been lost would be the determining factor. To say the 12 Great Companies are set doesn't mean you can't model yours from a previous Wolf Lord or two or three before the current. We do not follow the basic structure of a Chapter as derived from the UltraSmurfs; ie, Mechanized Company, Assault Company and so on. SO there is no need to follow such organizational structure of a "3rd" or "5th" Company. Your Wolf Lord may be the one that came before one of the current or several successions before. Just sayin' you don't HAVE to be a Lost Company to have a different named Wolf Lord than the Codex 12.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Yep. I actually do have quite a bit of fluff planned out for a Lost Company - thinking of departing the Fang due to some sort of disagreement (though I still need a reason for that) and going off to prosecute their own campaign for a while.

 

Due to the exact problem you pointed out - logistics - I'll probably have it that they've adopted a bit more of an infantry-heavy, hit-and-run sort of character, due to not wanting to risk irreplaceable tanks and the like.

 

I may end up having them cut off for a period of time - or the old cliched fallback of being stranded in the Warp for a bit, to let a thousand or so years pass - and simply choosing not to return to the Fang due to having been a bit black sheepish. Perhaps they were a Great Company that never really shined in comparison to the others; perhaps they simply flat-out weren't as good as the others. Perhaps their character was a little out of tune with the others. Perhaps it was a combination of all three. Something like that.

[Growler67]

Not sure how that'llall wash out. Each Great Company is led by a Wolf Lord. Though they have their rivalries with other Wolf Lords, they are ALL Space Wolves and fall under the Command of the Great Wolf himself. Departure due to a falling out would be unlikely, IMO. Being "not as good or a bit sheepish" is also far out of character, IMHO.

 

Being deployed on a campaign and then getting cut off by the Warp is very plausible and apparently happens from time to time, though it's not common nor rare in occurrance. Perhaps while persecuting their foes, a powerful scorcerer or demon called upon the forces of the Warp to make their retreat and your Wolves got caught up and cut off.

 

Being infantry centric is up to you though you may want to consider some armor mods reflecting the lack of availability of spare parts/maintenance supplies for repairs to battle damage.

 

Not knowing the fluff you already have, I am not in a position to recommend a wholesale toss away and start over, not that I would anyway. Perhaps just some tweaking and modification is all that may be warranted. A re-edit if you will. Skalds are tasked to commit to memory all that happens to a Company until such time as those accounts can be transformed into a representative Saga. Maybe yours had one too many flasks of mead and bumped his head on a table leg or something and now the account has been altered a bit to better fit............just sayin'.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Not sure how that'llall wash out. Each Great Company is led by a Wolf Lord. Though they have their rivalries with other Wolf Lords, they are ALL Space Wolves and fall under the Command of the Great Wolf himself. Departure due to a falling out would be unlikely, IMO. Being "not as good or a bit sheepish" is also far out of character, IMHO.

 

From what I understand, Wolf Lords are voluntarily under the authority of the Great Wolf; the codex itself, in discussing the Black Annulus, states that it stands for "all of the Great Companies in the history of the Space Wolves who have been destroyed in battle, lost on campaign, or recounted their oaths of fealty."

 

And I said black sheepish, not a bit sheepish. ;P Meaning that, for example, they were perhaps a bit like Saul Tarvitz's company of Emperor's Children during the Horus Heresy - not a great fit with the Legion due to their character, with Tarvitz himself marked for going no higher than he's already risen due to simply not embodying the Legion's ideals the way Legion leadership thought he should. And hey, not every company in a chapter can be the best, as that's a mathematical impossibility. Somebody's got to be at the bottom of the class.

[Orphus]

Making a Lost Co is fine, and and the details surrounding their 'departure' from the fang don't have to be "yeah, another section of a great co. just got lost in the warp and now they are on their own blah blah blah"-use some creative licence ;) And if they have been stuck in the warp are they trying to find their way back to The Fang or copy the Black Templars and roam Space, keeping away from their homeland for some reason?

 

My Lost Co. is gathered from fragments of SW that have either been abandoned or gone AWOL, with the Great Wolf instructing my WP to mop up after other SWs battles, picking up more Marines as he goes. After "aquiring' certain items the WL goes against the orders of the Great Wolf and are forced to fend for themselves, only returning to Fenris on stealthy "recruting" missions.

 

Knowing a bit of the story behind your marines would be good. You say you want them to be "infantry-heavy" and "hit-and-run" tactica-based...are they footsloggers or can you see your troops in transports?

[The Smiling Bandit]

Knowing a bit of the story behind your marines would be good. You say you want them to be "infantry-heavy" and "hit-and-run" tactica-based...are they footsloggers or can you see your troops in transports?

 

I'm toying with the idea that the original Wolf Lord of the Great Company was a keen student of early Imperial history, and eventually reached the unsettling conclusion that the current status quo of the Imperium is pretty much exactly what the Emperor would NOT have wanted. Or Russ, for that matter. So, after deciding that he simply couldn't be party to twisting the Emperor's vision for humanity any further, maybe simply took his company off into the black, well aware that he wouldn't be able to sway whoever was Great Wolf at the time to his line of thinking - due in no small part, I think, to what I mentioned earlier, about them being a bit on the black sheepish side of things. Horus was said to be first among equals when he was made Warmaster; these guys would be last among equals. Maybe the worst combat record of all the Great Companies, maybe simply thought of as being a little TOO taciturn, introspective, contemplative, whatever, for a son of Russ.

 

Since then, they've done a rather Shrike-ish bit of "help the helpless" where they could, along with some necessary unsanctioned recruiting from likely-looking Feral Worlds to replace losses. I'd say they're renegades, even though they end up fighting against the Imperium's enemies more than the Imperium itself. Though certainly they'd be considered fierce enemies of the Ecclesiarchy and other examples of bureaucratic cruelty that represent, in their view, everything the Emperor would not have wanted. Lordship of the Company has probably changed hands a time or two in the interim.

 

As far as the actual list, transports and such are perfectly fine. When I say they're probably infantry-heavy and hit-and-run sorts, I simply mean that, given the fact that they have no logistical support, they can't really commit to prolonged engagements that would involve potential attrition wars, nor can they deploy armor with impunity, because once it's gone, it's gone. Space Wolves themselves are a valuable commodity, but as long as you can recover the bodies of the fallen, you can theoretically replace them, through patching up armor and utilizing the gene-seed in a recruit. That's not true of, say, Predators or Land Raiders. They are, of course, doomed to eventually die out, but that's fine.

 

That all may be too out of character for Space Wolves, though, so it's by no means final, just the lines I'm thinking along currently.

[Orphus]

In the words of Phil Kelly: "Space Wolves do things because it is the noble or right thing to do, not because a thousand year old tome tells them to."

(At least I think it goes something like that :) ). If your Space Wolves decide that the best way they can contribute to the Imperium is by abandoning ship and going out on their own then that's fine by the way Space Wolves work-even if the Great Wolf or the Ecclesiarchy dont agree.

[Hellrender]

What exactly is a lost company? (or direct me to a page in the codex where it stands) might give me a nice idea aswell.

 

Greetz

[slmellon]

My buddy plays Eldar, Ulthwé specifically, using Eldrad...seeing as Eldrad died in the Eye of Terror Campaign, he says every game he plays is a historical one.

Seeing as this game will probably sit at 999.M41 forever, all games are in fact historical, so like many have said, your Wolf Lord may have at one time been the Lord of, lets say, Ragnars, prior to Berek Thunderfist, heck you could name one of your WGs Berek...

[The Smiling Bandit]

What exactly is a lost company? (or direct me to a page in the codex where it stands) might give me a nice idea aswell.

 

Greetz

 

A Lost Company is a company destroyed in battle, lost in the warp - like the 13th Company - or one that has left the Fang for other reasons, and no longer is considered one of the 'official' 12 companies. There's only a brief blurb about them in the codex where they go over the current companies.

 

And while it's true, as pointed out above, it could be a historical company that ain't lost, I actually do like the idea of a Lost Company, so it's not that big of an issue.

[Hellrender]

So for instance, one could make a SW company not mentioned in the codex? hmm...

 

And as far i understand, this is the only way to do this? I mean SW doesn't have Successor chapters and the likes (kinda sad, might have been nice to have SW in a tiny bit different colours..)

[The Smiling Bandit]

So for instance, one could make a SW company not mentioned in the codex? hmm...

 

And as far i understand, this is the only way to do this? I mean SW doesn't have Successor chapters and the likes (kinda sad, might have been nice to have SW in a tiny bit different colours..)

 

You certainly can make a SW company not mentioned in the codex. It could be a Lost Company, or you could simply be making a company set, say, six hundred years ago, before the current Wolf Lords became the current Wolf Lords. Somebody had Ragnar's company before he did.

 

As to my intended fluff regarding my own particular band of Space Wolves, I picked up the Deathwatch RPG codex on a whim. It's very circumstantial support for my position, but the Demeanors in the game don't have any restrictions on, say, giving a Space Wolf character "Studious" or "Taciturn". Though I don't know, maybe I should just go with a non-SW DIY that simply uses the SW codex. Trouble is, I'm having a hard time coming up with reasons why a non-Russ successor chapter would fight like Space Wolves, beast cavalry and all.

[Way1and]

And while it's true, as pointed out above, it could be a historical company that ain't lost, I actually do like the idea of a Lost Company, so it's not that big of an issue.

 

Why does it have to be a Lost Great Company? For that matter, why be lost?

 

Your army leader could be an aspirant (who's technically a Wolf Lord for game purposes) just waiting for one of the Old Dogs to die off. In the meantime, he runs an independent SW force from a strike cruiser. His wolves know he's going to inherit a Great Company someday, so whose business is it if they all start decorating their shoulder pads with his heraldry?

[The Smiling Bandit]

And while it's true, as pointed out above, it could be a historical company that ain't lost, I actually do like the idea of a Lost Company, so it's not that big of an issue.

 

Why does it have to be a Lost Great Company? For that matter, why be lost?

 

Your army leader could be an aspirant (who's technically a Wolf Lord for game purposes) just waiting for one of the Old Dogs to die off. In the meantime, he runs an independent SW force from a strike cruiser. His wolves know he's going to inherit a Great Company someday, so whose business is it if they all start decorating their shoulder pads with his heraldry?

 

Man, you guys REALLY hate Lost Companies.

[Way1and]

Man, you guys REALLY hate Lost Companies.

 

No, I think we just hate that every fifth grader out there has a "Lost" Company. Invariably painted with so much SW Gray and splattered with so much Red Gore that they could easily proxy for Ultramarines or Crimson Fists.

 

The Lost Company idea is fine, but with so many other people doing it, why not break from the pack?

 

What's the point of being a Space Wolf if you're just going to follow the herd?

 

Anyway, this old dreadnaught is going back to sleep now...

 

edit: Yay! Post count just hit the double digits!

 

Snrxzzz...

[The Smiling Bandit]

Man, you guys REALLY hate Lost Companies.

 

No, I think we just hate that every fifth grader out there has a "Lost" Company. Invariably painted with so much SW Gray and splattered with so much Red Gore that they could easily proxy for Ultramarines or Crimson Fists.

 

The Lost Company idea is fine, but with so many other people doing it, why not break from the pack?

 

That's a double-edged sword when it comes to Space Marines. They're not exactly uncommon, and "fifth graders" abound. Truly breaking from the pack would be playing something like Necrons.

 

What's the point of being a Space Wolf if you're just going to follow the herd?

 

I like the way the codex actually plays on the tabletop, and I like some aspects of the fluff. Not all, but some. As I have no inclination to simply replace "Wolf" with "Bear" or "Hamster" and call it an original creation, I'm trying to figure out how to make the SW Codex - and the fluff - work without simply copping out to, "Oh, yeah, these are my Space Weasels. They come from the planet Mustela, and this here is Ferret Weaselborn, the Chapter Master. He rides a War Weasel."

 

I'd always thought that if I did a DIY chapter, I'd make them renegades committed to the old and dead doctrine of Imperial Truth. I think that can actually work with Space Wolves, as anti-authoritarian as they are, but won't work with a non-Lost Company.

[The Smiling Bandit]

The Lost Company idea is fine, but with so many other people doing it, why not break from the pack?

 

What's the point of being a Space Wolf if you're just going to follow the herd?

 

I thought about this some more, and here's what it boils down to. I want the following for my chapter/company/whatever:

 

- SW rules. I like the way the codex plays.

- A Germanic (barbarian) feel. Conrad and Tancred instead of Skold and Ragnar.

- Some book learnin'.

- An unimpressive past as a company. Some disastrous battles.

 

What I like about Space Wolves: The models. The rules. The chapter attitude regarding authority. The sense of individuality. The humane side of them. The barbarian feel. The wolf association.

What I dislike about Space Wolves: The stereotypical Viking "flavor". The apparent fear of books. The mysticism.

 

So, you guys tell me, 'cause I really don't know. Can I get what I want in a Lost Company, or should I be looking at a whole new DIY chapter with SW rules?

[Hellrender]

I don't know, thats also a question of my own. How is the general opinion (on tournies, but also in more friendly games with 'strangers') to counts as armys. Say a Space marine army using the SW rules..

[Valerian]

You certainly can make a SW company not mentioned in the codex. It could be a Lost Company, or you could simply be making a company set, say, six hundred years ago, before the current Wolf Lords became the current Wolf Lords. Somebody had Ragnar's company before he did.

 

Yeah, his name was Berek Thunderfist.

 

Though I don't know, maybe I should just go with a non-SW DIY that simply uses the SW codex. Trouble is, I'm having a hard time coming up with reasons why a non-Russ successor chapter would fight like Space Wolves, beast cavalry and all.

 

Fighting like the Space Wolves shouldn't be hard to justify, since in most ways they organize in a much smarter way than Codex Marines do (sorry Roboutte). It would be hard to justify the beast cavalry, though, so you should probably just impose a self-limitation that you don't use a TWC equivilant. No big deal, it isn't like you have to have them to make a formidible list.

 

I thought about this some more, and here's what it boils down to. I want the following for my chapter/company/whatever:

 

- SW rules. I like the way the codex plays.

- A Germanic (barbarian) feel. Conrad and Tancred instead of Skold and Ragnar.

- Some book learnin'.

- An unimpressive past as a company. Some disastrous battles.

 

What I like about Space Wolves: The models. The rules. The chapter attitude regarding authority. The sense of individuality. The humane side of them. The barbarian feel. The wolf association.

What I dislike about Space Wolves: The stereotypical Viking "flavor". The apparent fear of books. The mysticism.

 

So, you guys tell me, 'cause I really don't know. Can I get what I want in a Lost Company, or should I be looking at a whole new DIY chapter with SW rules?

 

To be honest, probably not. Lost Companies aren't part of the primary Chapter structure anymore, but they are still all Space Wolves. They just happen to be off on there own for various reasons (mission not yet completed, something else important has come up, isolated by Warp storms, etc., etc.). This isn't going to change their inherent Viking flavor, their culture, or anything else that makes them a Space Wolf. To get the "feel" and "flavor" that you are going for will probably require a DIY that is based off of the codex.

 

I don't know, thats also a question of my own. How is the general opinion (on tournies, but also in more friendly games with 'strangers') to counts as armys. Say a Space marine army using the SW rules..

 

Here is the thing that most folks will probably have a problem with, and that is a poorly done DIY force. If, for example, all of your "fill-in-the-blank Marines" are primered and you throw them down on the table as counts-as Wolves, then opponents are going to be bothered. If you go all the way, with a top-notch theme, paint job, and appropriate conversions, then almost nobody will have an issue. In fact, most hobbyists will appreciate your innovation and creativity. Take Goat Boy's Space Goats, for example; they are completely rediculous, but so well done, that his army gets praise rather than scorn.

 

Best of luck,

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

What exactly is a lost company? (or direct me to a page in the codex where it stands) might give me a nice idea aswell.

 

It appears that in some cases a Wolf Lord and his Great Company separate from the main body of the Chapter, undertaking their own quests and missions for a variety of reasons. The case of Jotun Bearclaw, for example, indicates that his men had elected not to return to Fenris because of the long journey time through warp space, and presumably the temporal displacement they would suffer on arrival (potentially several years over such a distance). I suspect that there is a more hidden motive behind the Company's actions, one which he chose not to share with the Kimmerians. This may be related to the Space Wolves' ancient quest to find their lost Primarch.

 

As to the long term viability of these 'lost companies' it is difficult to say. Given sufficient geneseed and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a company to maintain its strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal Chapter. Less well-supplied companies might have to resort to training ordinary humans to fill their ranks or face the prospect of gradually dwindling in numbers until the company ceases to exist.

 

Speculation aside, this subject obviously requires further investigation. A Space Wolves Great Company is a substantial organization and the concept of having such groups wandering the galaxy without any kind of check or balance is somewhat worrying. I shall endeavor to uncover more information before contacting you again.

 

- Inquisitor Asmorales Harkenforth

 

The Space Wolves Chapter is made up of a dozen Great Companies, all of whom owe allegiance to the Chapter's commander, the Great Wolf. Space Wolf Great Companies are rather larger than the companies found in other Space Marine Chapters and are much more self-sufficient. In most ways, each Great Company is a separate army in its own right, and it is very rare for members of one Great Company to be placed under the command of leaders from another.

 

All Space Wolves are headstrong and in the past this has even led to a Wolf Lord forswearing his oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and striking out on his own. This last happened in 815M41, when Wolf Lord Sven Ironhand revoked his oath and led his Great Company into exile on the Eastern Fringes. He was declared outlaw by Logan Grimnar, and a new Great Company was raised to replace the one that was lost. Some say that Sven went on to carve out an Empire in the Eastern Fringes and rules there to this day.

 

Loremaster Valerian

[The Smiling Bandit]

Fighting like the Space Wolves shouldn't be hard to justify, since in most ways they organize in a much smarter way than Codex Marines do (sorry Roboutte). It would be hard to justify the beast cavalry, though, so you should probably just impose a self-limitation that you don't use a TWC equivilant. No big deal, it isn't like you have to have them to make a formidible list.

 

Heh. But they are, hands down, the best assault unit in the codex.

 

To be honest, probably not. Lost Companies aren't part of the primary Chapter structure anymore, but they are still all Space Wolves. They just happen to be off on there own for various reasons (mission not yet completed, something else important has come up, isolated by Warp storms, etc., etc.). This isn't going to change their inherent Viking flavor, their culture, or anything else that makes them a Space Wolf. To get the "feel" and "flavor" that you are going for will probably require a DIY that is based off of the codex.

 

Alright, so you don't buy the advice that Dakka gave me, then, in saying that there's nothing in the fluff suggesting that every tribe on Fenris has to be Nordic and composed solely of guys named Sven and Hrothgar, and that there could in fact be a more Germanic tribe that we just don't hear about?

[Growler67]

Beastial Cavalry would be easy to justify on a feral world (even if that world is a seperate sub continent on Fenris) like Catachan or something similar to an Exodite Homeworld for instance. Wasn't the Talarn (when they existed for IG) using Camels and Sabertooth Cats? Pretty easy to justify, IMO. In fairness, it might have to be an Australia or Greenland like place on Fenris that is located in a seldom travelled sea on Fenris or otherwise not among the more commonly known tribes. That's where you show the strength of your creative juices.

 

I already stated that I find no reason you cannot flavor yours more Germanic or Celtic if you wish.