how many remain?

[Brother Nathan]

just wondering how many rougly do you thinkremains of the original traitor legions? from reading the thousand soms it does appear that theres anly around 1k of them, and they are mostly rhubic with the rest socerrors. i really cant imagine too many world eaters, they had heavy losses at every stage of the herasy an i cant imagine their recruiting being very succesful. word bearers and black legion? likely alot, death guard? a few, mostly infected recruits. iron warriors well their infighting appears to be hurting them. and who knows about the alpha legion and nightlords? and ofcourse theemperors chidren? thoughts?

[Ulfast]

No one can really now. Some of the legion had over 100k of marines in them and with the warp and constant war it could be anything from a couple of thousands to several hundred of thousands. Also the gods some times bring back dead champions, so to guess the original number of chaos marines that actually fought in the heresy and still fight today is anyone guess I think. Still a intersting thought.

[Debauchery101]

i would put my money on the alpha legion for having the most "original" era marines in it ranks. also no one ever knew the legions true numbers or even if they actually killed apharius. plus they have spy networks and cultist cells spread throughout the galaxy and their legion is split up into independent groups. no one will ever know how strong they are. i would also think they will outlast any other legion and possibly the rest of humanity since they are also allied with the cabal

[Legatus]

i would put my money on the alpha legion for having the most "original" era marines in it ranks.

Actually, the Index Astartes Alpha Legion notes the fact that unlike the other traitor Legions the Alpha Legion is not residing inside the Eye of Terror and thus does not beenfit of the unnatural life enhancing effects of the warp. The Article further poses the question of how the Alpha Legion will then remain active and how they recruit new members. So really the Alpha Legion is the Legion with the least original members remaining. All regular Astartes from 10,000 years ago are long dead, and only possessed or Daemon Princes may have lived that long (perhaps Lords or Sorcerers particularly favoured by one of the dark gods). All the regular Marines of the Alpha Legion have been recently recruited and are current generation. They are no older than loyalist Marines.

[Kjarl Bluetooth]

The Black Legion and Word Bearers remain the largest of the original Legions with Abaddon still commanding a significantly sized number of warbands tied to him through pacts and deals.

 

Dark Creed states that "the four Dark Apostles commanded the loyalty of over five and a half thousand Astartes warriors. Together with the might of Ekodas's Grand Host, that number swelled to over nine thousand." This is just a small proportion of the available forces.

 

I believe that Mortarion still commands a fairly large and intact force of Death Guard,

 

The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were both broken up into small warbands usually only loyal to the lord in command.

[isilvra]

The Black Legion and Word Bearers remain the largest of the original Legions with Abaddon still commanding a significantly sized number of warbands tied to him through pacts and deals.

 

Dark Creed states that "the four Dark Apostles commanded the loyalty of over five and a half thousand Astartes warriors. Together with the might of Ekodas's Grand Host, that number swelled to over nine thousand." This is just a small proportion of the available forces.

 

I believe that Mortarion still commands a fairly large and intact force of Death Guard,

 

The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were both broken up into small warbands usually only loyal to the lord in command.

 

Dark Creed also mentions the Black Legion as out numbering the Word Bearers by around 10 to 1. Considering the size of the Word Bearers legion when it turned (100,000), that’s quite a recruitment drive. As a percentage of original Astartes i'd say the black legion had the smallest number of original members, but the largest overall force.

 

We also know that the Word Bearers do not actively recruit as they count the heritage of the home world to be holy.

[Debauchery101]

oh man i havent read that index astartes. ive always thought that marines never died unless killed since they were geno enhanced to be like that.

 

that would make complete sense. so what of the primarchs then? would omegon and possibly alpharius still be alive if they werent killed? they are primarchs and all

[Legatus]

Space Marines are not immortal. There are several testaments to their limited lifespan, such as the fact that the oldest Ultramarine is 400 years old, that the Blood Angels are said to have a longer natural life span than other Marines and are known to reach 1000 years of age, that the Codex Space Wolves explains that a Marine can get several hundred years old if he is not killed in battle, or that passage in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion where it explains that they are not subject to the lifespan enhancing effects of the warp like the other traitor Legions are.

 

Whether Primarchs are immortal is unknown. There is no living Primarch known today, safe for the daemon Primarchs. Whether Alpharius is still alive is also unknown. He has not been seen ever since his alleged death.

[Brother Ambroz]

No space marine has ever been recorded as dieing of old age. It's often stated in various books that space marines are essentially immortal. Seeing as how you don't read HH novels though legatus I'm not going to debate the point seeing as how alot of the fluff here comes from here.

[Debauchery101]

i just read the index astartes of the alpha legion and the finds of an inquisitor cant prove whether or not the alpha legion is or is not affected by the aging. its just assumptions so again know one knows jack shift on alpha legion. they could have many many OG's.

[Legatus]

They could have. It is not like the Imperial scholars can perform tests on Alpha Legion subjects. But the conclusion that if they do not operate from within the Eye of Terror they will not benefit from the lifespan enhancing effects as the other Legions do is a pretty reasonable one.

[the jeske]

but why would they have to , if the pre heresy marine making tech was much more perfect and was making sm unable to die from death ?

[Legatus]

As far as I can see the tech from 10,000 years ago did not produce immortal Space Marines either. The Index Astartes Alpha Legion suggests that the unnatural long life span of Chaos Marines is due to the warp, not because Marines from 10,000 years ago did not die to natural causes. The Index Astartes Ultramarines also states that their genes are as pure and functional today as they were 10,000 years ago, suggesting that the Marines from 10,000 years ago were not really different from those today.

[Lay]

The idea that Space Marines are immortal is just in-universe speculation from some of the HH books. Iirc, in "A Thousand Sons", Ahriman even says that it is too soon to tell if Astartes are really immortal. Also, Iacton Qruze is an example of an aged pre-heresy era Space Marine.

 

As for the Alpha Legion, for whatever reason, their fluff in the 4E Codex CSM is based on the 2E Codex, according to which a large part of the Legion had retreated to the Eye of Terror. So now, the current Codex mentions them launching full scale attacks from the EoT.

[Black Hand]

However many marines are left of each legion is hard to say, other than it'd be a small proportion of their numbers now, to my mind.

They've been fighting wars all that time, and a great deal of casualties would have been taken in those wars, so I'd guess that a lot of the original legionaries would have been killed by now. Having said that, in the fluff time in the warp is supposed to flow differently from outside it, so it's theoretically possible for only a century to go past in some parts of the Eye of Terror when 10,000 years go by outside of it, which would mean any legion in that area would probably still be more or less intact from the Heresy.

[Hellios]

The Black Legion and Word Bearers remain the largest of the original Legions with Abaddon still commanding a significantly sized number of warbands tied to him through pacts and deals.

 

Dark Creed states that "the four Dark Apostles commanded the loyalty of over five and a half thousand Astartes warriors. Together with the might of Ekodas's Grand Host, that number swelled to over nine thousand." This is just a small proportion of the available forces.

 

I believe that Mortarion still commands a fairly large and intact force of Death Guard,

 

The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were both broken up into small warbands usually only loyal to the lord in command.

 

Dark Creed also mentions the Black Legion as out numbering the Word Bearers by around 10 to 1. Considering the size of the Word Bearers legion when it turned (100,000), that’s quite a recruitment drive. As a percentage of original Astartes i'd say the black legion had the smallest number of original members, but the largest overall force.

 

We also know that the Word Bearers do not actively recruit as they count the heritage of the home world to be holy.

 

 

Also hasn't the Iron Warriors legion built itself up almost to full strength again? Granted new recruits are not heresy era... but having more guys on side should make it easier for the old folks to sruvive...

[Allerka]

The Black Legion and Word Bearers remain the largest of the original Legions with Abaddon still commanding a significantly sized number of warbands tied to him through pacts and deals.

 

Dark Creed states that "the four Dark Apostles commanded the loyalty of over five and a half thousand Astartes warriors. Together with the might of Ekodas's Grand Host, that number swelled to over nine thousand." This is just a small proportion of the available forces.

 

I believe that Mortarion still commands a fairly large and intact force of Death Guard,

 

The World Eaters and Emperor's Children were both broken up into small warbands usually only loyal to the lord in command.

 

Dark Creed also mentions the Black Legion as out numbering the Word Bearers by around 10 to 1. Considering the size of the Word Bearers legion when it turned (100,000), that’s quite a recruitment drive. As a percentage of original Astartes i'd say the black legion had the smallest number of original members, but the largest overall force.

 

We also know that the Word Bearers do not actively recruit as they count the heritage of the home world to be holy.

Except that book makes absolutely no sense with those numbers. They couldn't possibly have that many left. The Ultramarines were the largest Legion during the Heresy, and they had, at most, 30,000 Marines (as stated in their IA article). Most of the other Legions were around the 10,000 mark (with some higher and some lower, of course), and almost all of them took heavy losses (except for the Alpha Legion, Iron Hands, and Dark Angels). If the Black Legion really was at well over 100,000 strong, plus the other Legions being nearly as strong, then the 13th Black Crusade should have been over in days, rather than the Imperium being able to fight them to a stalemate.

 

Not to mention the Legions are almost always at war with each other (particularly with the cult Legions attacking each other), and those battles always have massive death tolls (a single instance of in-fighting among the Iron Warriors in Dead Sky, Black Sun sees three whole Great Companies wiped out, which should have been 3,000 casualties or more). Yes, they can replenish their numbers somewhat, but the Legions, by all rights, should be vastly depleted in number from what they were at during the Horus Heresy.

[Hellios]

Except that book makes absolutely no sense with those numbers. They couldn't possibly have that many left. The Ultramarines were the largest Legion during the Heresy, and they had, at most, 30,000 Marines (as stated in their IA article). Most of the other Legions were around the 10,000 mark (with some higher and some lower, of course), and almost all of them took heavy losses (except for the Alpha Legion, Iron Hands, and Dark Angels). If the Black Legion really was at well over 100,000 strong, plus the other Legions being nearly as strong, then the 13th Black Crusade should have been over in days, rather than the Imperium being able to fight them to a stalemate.

 

Not to mention the Legions are almost always at war with each other (particularly with the cult Legions attacking each other), and those battles always have massive death tolls (a single instance of in-fighting among the Iron Warriors in Dead Sky, Black Sun sees three whole Great Companies wiped out, which should have been 3,000 casualties or more). Yes, they can replenish their numbers somewhat, but the Legions, by all rights, should be vastly depleted in number from what they were at during the Horus Heresy.

 

I'm sure this is a matter of the 10,000 strong legions vs the 100,000 strong legions... where the Ultramarines are supposed to have had at least 200,000 marines...

[Allerka]

I'm sure this is a matter of the 10,000 strong legions vs the 100,000 strong legions... where the Ultramarines are supposed to have had at least 200,000 marines...

 

 

The Ultramarines were the largest Legion during the Heresy, and they had, at most, 30,000 Marines (as stated in their IA article).

[Legatus]

Yes, that is because the Codices and Index Astartes articles assume average Legion sizes of 10,000 per Legion. The Horus Heresy material on the other hand assumes that a Legion had 100,000 Marines on average, with the Ultramarines being specifically stated as having had 250,000 men. The two numbers are irreconcilable, and it all comes down whether you prefer the Legions to be epic in size or whether you prefer the Codex and Index Astartes numbers. I personally prefer the smaller numbers because only with them the Second Founding figures make sense, and because those numbers are used in most Codices and the Index Astartes articles, which I prefer over the Black Library novels. Others prefer the bigger numbers because they find it implausible that smaller Legions could have had any impact on the Great Crusade efforts.

[Allerka]

Which books did they say that in? Not saying I don't believe you, I just want to double-check, as I don't remember seeing that mentioned. I suppose one could reconcile the numbers by saying the Second Founding is what all the Legions were reduced to by the Heresy, but that would mean most of the Legions would have had to take insane amounts of losses (such as upwards of 220,000 casualties for the Ultramarines). As bad as the Heresy was, I don't think they killed off quite that many. The Legions involved in the Siege of Terra maybe, but not the ones that weren't there.

[Legatus]

The 250,000 for Ultramarines is stated in the 'Collected Visions' book, but I cannot give you a page reference right now. IIRC the Legions are described as 100,000 on average in there as well. 'Raven's Flight' mentions a size of 80,000 for the Raven Guard IIRC, but I have not read it myself (or is that only available as an audio book?). In 'The First Heretic' the entire assembled Word Bearers are 100,000 men.

[Captain Tezdal]

Im not so sure about the World Eaters being so small....in the little Dominion of Fire blurb in the "mid 38th milennium" Angron managed to wrangle up 50k Khorne Berzerkers, then it mentions for 200 years the World Eaters burned and slaughtered their way across three dozen star systems....sounds like their going pretty strong to me.

[Vodunius]

Which books did they say that in? Not saying I don't believe you, I just want to double-check, as I don't remember seeing that mentioned. I suppose one could reconcile the numbers by saying the Second Founding is what all the Legions were reduced to by the Heresy, but that would mean most of the Legions would have had to take insane amounts of losses (such as upwards of 220,000 casualties for the Ultramarines). As bad as the Heresy was, I don't think they killed off quite that many. The Legions involved in the Siege of Terra maybe, but not the ones that weren't there.

 

The dumbed down "ancient history we're not really interested in" version of the Heresy from the Index Astartes articles was indeed fairly tame, the true Horus Heresy as originally depicted back in EPIC was exactly that brutal:

 

Codex Titanicus

Aye, fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elite, the chosen of humanity. Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must – for were not these men the same as ourselves? Spawned from geneseed, trained by masters, armed and equipped with the best from humanity's realm. Finally we faced a for worthy of fear, a mirror image of ourselves and all we believed in. In this nightmare, brother against false brother to the death. Is it any wonder we knew fear?

 

We fought like tigers but were met with equal ferocity. We shot accurately. Our eyes were like those of hawks. Yet equal numbers fell from our ranks. We met at close quarters. Weapons flashed and gouged but who was to say which was faster? For every Traitor who fell, so fell a loyal brother. The battle surged back and forth till finally in the end true faith prevailed and we had the mastery. Yet we were slaughtered. But one in ten survived. The city was dust. Thus it was at the scouring of Tallarn. I know, for I was there and I saw it with my own eyes. I will not forget.

 

~ Lexicanian Elisar Trask, Ultramarines

It should be noted this bit of fluff was so good they reprinted it in the the Titan Legions Codex Titanicus during 2nd edition even tho that game was set modern day.

 

The Horus Heresy CCG/Artbook fluff is presumably a result of them revisiting that old fluff, it'd also explain why they reverted to the pre-2nd edition spelling of Isstvan instead of Istvaan, and why the Isstvan V traitors match up.

[Allerka]

Whoa, that's getting pretty old school, Vodonius. :)

 

Though, the scouring of Tallarn (I assume when the Iron Warriors attacked and nuked it). Wasn't that post-Heresy, though?