Meshing Elites

[LardO'Blood]

How do you mesh elites into your lists? (Or, how should they be meshed into a water list)Specifically tactical terminators, sternguard, legion of the damned and dreadnoughts of all kinds.

I try to use terminators and dreadnoughts together to harass, kill MC's or vehicles and whittle down elite close combat units. My sternguard provide some "harder" firepower for my tacticals and serve as a counter charge in a pinch.

[Jackelope King]

It depends on a lot of factors.

 

For my Biker list, for instance, I've invested my Elites slots in a trio of Rifleman-configuration Dreadnoughts, to bulk up my firebase alongside my Predators. I prefer to use Bikers that have a strong firebase to back them up and knock infantry out of transports to make the difference in speed between my list and theirs more obvious.

 

Other units, like TH/SS termies can be used as a more forward, killy role. It all depends on your list and where you need to apply pressure.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Jackelope King has it right on the money, it really depends on what your list is like.

Also, points values are also important for choosing your Elites.

For example, I play a very defensive army, and I usually use either Dreads or Sternguard in 1500pt games (sometimes Termies if i feel like it), but in larger games I use Tac Termies with heavy weapons almost always.

However, for other armies like aggresive Fire lists or a fast Air lists, Termies probably aren't the best choices.

my 2 cents

[thade]

If you're the kind of list builder that takes the bare minimum of Troop choices and spams Elites, you use your Elites to kill your opponent's stuff, plain and simple. They can't score, so they're expendable. <_< In two out of the three missions.

 

Otherwise...

 

Sternguard are exceptional anti-infantry, and they're nicely adaptable, able to put a lot of hurt on both heavy and light infantry, denying saves or just massing up wounds in a nice way. With that 30" shot, they can offer support with their boltguns at a great distance. They're also a cheap way to get combi-meltas into your force, which gives you the option to pop open thick things like Land Raiders should they roll into your zone. Personally I use Sternguard as roving base defense (if I've established a spot on the table to go Earth army for a few turns) or as support for my skirmishers (Vanguard/Assault teams) as they're non-scoring and thus I'm more able to risk them.

 

Dreads are awesome, especially Venerables. A single Assault Cannon or TL-autocannon is nice against infantry and Rhinos alike. You can double up on the Autocannons for Rifleman, or keep that delicious Str 10 DCCW and prove a deadly melee tarpit for ill-equipped squads...or tear apart that Monolith that got too close.

 

Tac Termies are not my favorite...primarily because I'm spectacular at failing 2+ saves. I use them as long range base defense, since they can move and fire 24" with those storm bolters. I recommend giving one either an Assault Cannon (it's nice) or a Cyclone Missile Launcher (two krak missiles are nice anti-Rhino). Also, you can stick them in a LR and introduce somebody to the SURPRISE IT'S POWER FIST PARTY TIME party. I don't recommend Deep Striking them - or anything - in the vanilla marine codex, unless it's in a Drop Pod.

[Jackelope King]

I've gotta disagree really strongly on the Venerable Dread, thade. The thing is so overcosted that it's not even funny. The Venerable rule and BS5 are great, but the cost is prohibitive. A Rifleman Dread is already darn accurate and melts transports relatively cheaply. For that twin-linked BS5 single las-cannon shot, you're paying 195 points, and there's no bonus for being able to shoot the guy's eyelashes off. The autocannon is better, but it's still a huge expense when the Rifleman does it nearly as well for a lot less.

 

(And for the record, I absolutely hate that the thing is so overcosted... my chapter's very into Dreads, having had their whole 8th Company wiped out in a historic battle, so I'd love to use them, but I just can't justify the numbers in a competitive list... Ironclads usually wind up taking their place as the oldest dreads of the Honored Fallen.)

[thade]

Oh man; wish I could convince you otherwise. I feel it's totally worth the cose, esp if he's a MM dread who's going to be in close. He usually will take a lot of fire, and that re-roll + extra armor can make the difference between a dead dreadnought and a melee tarpit with WS5 S10. =) I enjoy them.

 

That said, I had my first successful game last night with a Rifleman Dread (only one TL-autocannon, left him the beefy arm); I'm starting to come around on them.

[Jackelope King]

Well, look at it this way:

 

A Rifleman Venerable Dreadnought is serious overkill. Twin-Linked Shots at BS5 means you're hitting 97% of the time. For 60 points less, a Rifleman Dreadnought is hitting 89% of the time. We're not getting our value out of the model's BS.

 

The WS5 is nice too, but how much are we paying for it on a model that still only has 2 attacks base? Maybe if I could trade out for another DCCW for free (and that's a big maybe).

 

And finally the venerable rule. I like it. A lot. But not 60+points a lot. An Ironclad Dreadnought's survivability is really similar, and costs less.

[thade]

Oh I see; yea, I wouldn't make a Rifleman a Venerable. I'd make a MM dread a Venerable; when you only get one shot, that BS5 is nice. (I *hate* missing with Melta guns). And WS5 means that dreadnought (which is already at close range for the 12" melta hit) is very nice in melee...which is another place the Venerable rule is great. Krak grenades are bad enough without having to reroll against my dread.

 

You're right though; not really worth it on a Dread with two TL-autocannons, who will be out at 36" or more for the game, firing away.

 

Also, my ven dread looks awesome. =(

[Jackelope King]

Here's a rundown of the elites as a whole (each unit is marked out of a possible ★★★★★ rating). Codex: Space Marines gives us quite a few neat toys to play with in the Elites slots in our Force Organization Chart. Some are worth the slot, some are just weak sauce. But no matter what, as always, their true value can only be determined with the perspective of the rest of your force.

 

Terminator Squad ★★☆☆☆

 

2+ save. Storm Bolters. Cyclone Missile Launchers. Power Fists Galore. A2 base. And a "just because" 5+ invulnerable save. They're solid. They're solid for their points. But I rate them very poorly.

 

Because they're elites. By the fluff, they damn well better be elites. They're the epitome of what an elite unit should be. Better in every regard than a Tactical Marine. But that also means they're competing for their slots with close-combat specialists like the Terminator Assault Squad, close-ranged fire specialists like Sternguard, and long-ranged fire specialists like the Rifleman Dreadnought. They're just too generalist to really fill niches as easily as those other folks. But at 2 stars, they can certainly work in certain lists that need this sort of a generalist.

 

 

Terminator Assault Squad ★★★★★

 

When you read that, read "Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Assault Terminators". Lightning Claw Terminators only come into their own when you can get them Furious Charge (Black Templar and Blood Angels... howdy!). S8 power weapon attacks. 2+ save, 3++ invulnerable. They kill you dead, and you don't hurt them.

 

The one downside: the expense to run these units (especially multiples of them) becomes very, very high. You're going to suffer from a low model count if you focus on these guys. And that's fine. But you'll need to support them well, which means Land Raider transports, Tacticals to hold midfield behind them, and fire support to shoot the enemy's transports out from under him. Still, Codex: Space Marines gets the best value so far as Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Assault Terminators is concerned. Don't be afraid to use 'em!

 

 

Sternguard Veteran Squad ★★★★☆

 

Almost more generalist than the normal Terminators, the Sternguard really remind me of the heroes from first person shooters. You ever wonder how the guy from Doom managed to carry around all those guns without popping a disc in his spine? That's what Sternguard are. Only they carry around ammo for every situation. And get dirt-cheap combi-meltas. And can carry Heavy Flamers. And still get cheap transports.

 

I will start by telling you that the Drop Pod should not be their primary means of conveyance. They want for a Rhino. They want a Rhino so they can fire two Heavy Flamers out of the top hatch. They want to be able to run around the table in groups of ten, gleefully popping out, wounding on a 2+, delivering a pair of Heavy Flamer templates, then jumping back in their ride to do it all again. Their A2 profile is actually just gravy until you start playing around at high points-values with gentlemen like Pedro Kantor.

 

Sternguard are solid, but they have a very specific role to fill as close-ranged shooting specialists. They can shoot from across the board with Kraken rounds, but you don't want to plan on them doing that (you want to rapid fire Hellfire rounds or Vengeance Rounds or Dragonfire Rounds and spray Heavy Flamers). They also die just as easy as any other Marine, so they need a transport to keep them safe, and support to make sure they aren't taking unnecessary risks.

[Jackelope King]

Venerable Dreadnought ★★☆☆☆

 

You pay big points to be WS5 and BS5. The Venerable rule is pretty nice, to be fair, but oi, the cost. You can be nearly as accurate with a Rifleman Dreadnought for a much lower cost. Not worth it. (Which really disappoints me, since Dreadnoughts play such a big role in the history of my Phoenix Knights...)

 

 

Ironclad Dreadnought ★★★☆☆

 

Front Armor 13, 4 S10 attacks on the charge, Extra Armor comes standard, at a reasonable price! However, one of these still isn't quite scary enough. When you start getting many of them, upwards of four to six, then people start to get nervous. And if you do decide to spam them, make sure they get Hunter-Killer Missiles, so on turn 1 they demonstrate what a threat they are.

 

 

Dreadnought ★★★★☆

 

The bone-standard 105 point Dreadnought comes with a nice armament. A multi-melta on a Walker platform provides a nice 30" threat bubble (or an 18" red-zone where you'll get double dice for armor penetration). And it's cheap. It's not great in close combat (only 3 attacks on the charge at WS4), but it can provide nice support to another unit that gets stuck in.

 

But for only 20 points more, the Dread really shines in a completely different way. The Rifleman-configuration of the Dreadnought, armed with a pair of Twin-Linked Autocannons instead of a Multi-Melta or Dreadnought Close-Combat Weapon, is a beastly firebase, with 4 highly-accurate S7 shots from very long range. This monster destroys enemy transports. Rhinos and Chimeras and side armor of all sorts evaporate under the fire of a Rifleman Dreadnought. It's a solid choice if you want to boost the size of your firebase.

 

 

Techmarine ★☆☆☆☆

 

He comes with artificer armor, modest wargear, and a free extra power fist attack. For the price of a power fist, make that two extra power fist attacks, a flamer, and a twin-linked plasma pistol.

 

But he's not an upgrade to a sergeant. He's an independent character (a plus) who takes up a whole Elites slot himself, not even 1-3 like Sanguinary Priests (a big, huge minus). Oh, and he doesn't get a dedicated transport (big minus when we're trying to cram more threats down the enemy's throat). And the "squad" he takes with him? Servitors? BS 3 in a Space Marines Codex is bad, and we still pay a big premium to use them. Skip this guy.

 

 

Legion of the Damned ★☆☆☆☆

 

Hey! 3++! They're good, right?

 

Basically, these guys are a Tactical Squad with an Invulnerable save. But they're relentless! And they always Deep Strike, and are good at it! But again, oi, the cost. You pay a lot for a squad which isn't really that killy. You can't load out each model with a power weapon or assault weapons or heavy weapons. What few heavy or special weapons they can take cost an arm and a leg (+20 points for a FLAMER?!). The squad costs 3/4 of what a Terminator Assault Squad costs, and they don't manage to be... well... good. Skip 'em.

[thade]

Kind of harsh on the Techmarine. Bolster Defenses and his repair-ability are both pretty nice. A 2+ save and the servo-harness PF attacks make him a beast in an assault provided the things he's fighting aren't packing power weapons). 4+ and the vehicle's not immobile anymore? Not too shabby.

 

I had one of these guys sitting behind a Vindicator for a month of gaming, and he put that gun back on the Vindi at least twice a game. Well worth his points there.

 

That said, I recommend chumping up and making him a MotF. The 2 wounds are well worth it. Have him stay in the Land Raider while your beefy Terminators climb out and pound faces. He can keep the Land Raider in repair. :D

[Jackelope King]

Kind of harsh on the Techmarine. Bolster Defenses and his repair-ability are both pretty nice. A 2+ save and the servo-harness PF attacks make him a beast in an assault provided the things he's fighting aren't packing power weapons). 4+ and the vehicle's not immobile anymore? Not too shabby.

 

I had one of these guys sitting behind a Vindicator for a month of gaming, and he put that gun back on the Vindi at least twice a game. Well worth his points there.

 

That said, I recommend chumping up and making him a MotF. The 2 wounds are well worth it. Have him stay in the Land Raider while your beefy Terminators climb out and pound faces. He can keep the Land Raider in repair. :D

Yeah, I actually really like the MotF. I preferred role for him is either camping a home-base objective with a dug-in Troops squad, firing his Conversion Beamer in a list designed to spam Dreads, or on a Bike skirting the edges of the board firing his conversion beamer in a list designed to spam Dreads.

 

Techmarines just cost too much for what little they do. WS is still only a 4, so you basically need the Servo-Harness upgrade to have a chance at hitting. They're also the unfortunate for being Elites, and not being 1-3 per slot. I can't think of a situation in which I'd take a Techmarine over another Speeder, for instance. They're denying you another squad of Sternguard or Assault Terminators or a Dreadnought. The repair ability is nice, but I'd rather have another tank on the table and take advantage of Lanchester's Square Law instead of paying for the Techmarine.

 

I do still have a use for the models, but I'm gonna need a lot of Necron bitz and boxes of Marines before I'll be able to use 'em.

[fredbob524]

I agree with your ratings jackelope king other than:

Ven dreads and ironclads should both have two stars I mean they really are not that effective for points

Tac termies while not as effective as assault are still four stars

sternguard are the best shooty infantry in the codex probably top three in the game should get 5 stars

[Jackelope King]

I agree with your ratings jackelope king other than:

Ven dreads and ironclads should both have two stars I mean they really are not that effective for points

Tac termies while not as effective as assault are still four stars

sternguard are the best shooty infantry in the codex probably top three in the game should get 5 stars

Ironclads can work fine when fielded in large numbers with modest upgrades. It's the fire-and-forget lone Drop Pod Ironclad that gives 'em a bad name.

 

On standard Terminators, they're just too generalist. I could see rating them up to 3 stars, but definitely not four.

 

Stenguard still suffer from durability problems. You can get around most of the problem by using them in a Rhino instead of a Drop Pod (as I suggested), but they're still 1W each in power armor with T4, with nary an invuln save in sight (obviously the last one is least important, since they're rarely going to be tooled up for close-combat).

[thade]

I think it'd be interesting to try and play around with Tactical Termies to see how much mileage you can get out of them. All of those power fists would be a nice way to clean out transports or Dreads, and with the storm bolters they're not useless slogging as TH/SS might be. Granted, TH/SS would be more effective at "herding" than the Tac Termies (3++ invuln can soak more and is thus scarier than 5++), but then Assault marines are better than assaulting then Tac Marines. We all do, however, at times fire with pistols and assault with Tac Marines. Playing units to their strengths is what is best, of course, so you'd of course rather rapid-fire with the Tac marines and charge with an Assalt team.

 

And therein lies the issue. Tactical terminators are intrinsically best at nothing; they are competent at *everything*. They have good (but not great) survivability, ability to fire on the move, fire power, and melee power. Honestly I feel like they should cost a bit more and be a Troop choice; THEN they'd be worth taking. As it is, for those 200 points, I'd rather take something else.

[fredbob524]

the problem with iron clads is they take slots away from riflemen dreads assault termies and sternguard. Oh and sternguard should definitely be in a rhino and should only get out when it is blown up, this increases their survivability greatly.

[Br0ther Rafen]

I don't understand why people dislike Tac Termis.

They are great unit which can act in synergy with the rest if the force. Their have been miltie times I got my Termies to fire and harass while my Tacticals claimed their objective and son the game. The only reason they suck is that they have to attack at I1. Still, 5 powerfists to the face isn't exactly healthy for anyone going up against them. You just have be carful with them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

the problem with iron clads is they take slots away from riflemen dreads assault termies and sternguard. Oh and sternguard should definitely be in a rhino and should only get out when it is blown up, this increases their survivability greatly.

 

So out of a ten man squad of Sternguard, you're firing two of them every turn out of the top hatch. That sounds to me like a horrendous waste of points for the other eight guys. Survivability doesn't matter if the unit isn't doing anything to affect the battle. Here's a real-world example:

 

I'm in Iraq with a squadron of OH-58D Kiowa Warrior scout helicopters. My pilots usually fly around 100-200 feet AGL (above ground level). They're really vulnerable to insurgent AK-47s and light machine guns and RPGs oh my! at those altitudes (just to give the laymen a basis for comparison, the longest-ranged target at a standard M16/M4 qualification range is 300 meters, or about 1,000 feet). Now, those pilots could fly at 2,000 feet AGL which would drastically improve their survivability, but then they could not pick out any targets or find the roadside bombs that you used to hear about on the news all the time -- which is their purpose in going out and flying. Make sense?

 

 

I don't understand why people dislike Tac Termis.

They are great unit which can act in synergy with the rest if the force. Their have been miltie times I got my Termies to fire and harass while my Tacticals claimed their objective and son the game. The only reason they suck is that they have to attack at I1. Still, 5 powerfists to the face isn't exactly healthy for anyone going up against them. You just have be carful with them.

 

I play with Tactical Termies with my Iron Hands on occassion, and I find that people tend to ignore them by virtue of the fact that they are not, in point of fact, Assault Termies. No stormshield? No hammer? No threat. And then I hit them with an assault cannon and four stormbolters followed by power- and chainfists to the face and they rapidly realize that regardless of equipment, Terminators remain a very serious threat. My one issue with them is their I1, which combines with my habitual bad dice rolling to leave me short a powerfist or two. I've been considering bumping my minimum squad up to a maximum squad and deep striking them, maybe even with a Chaplain stuck in there, because with that many powerfist attacks, someone's going to land a telling blow.

 

In one game, my five Termies (reduced to a total of two by the end) fisted their way through about 1,000 points of Eldar -- the only thing that stopped them with a Dire Avenger Exarch with Shimmershield and Defend, so I was only throwing one punch per model and he got a chance to save them.

[fredbob524]

I run my sternguard either 5 with two lascannons, or 5 with 5 combis if I run the combis then turn 2 i hop out unload the combis and turn three I am back in the vehicle not getting shot

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You just contradicted yourself.

[thade]

That is true; Tac Termies are one of the few ways to get a chainfist on to the table.

 

I'm going to try and work them back in to my list, see if I can't get them to work. I'd like to paint up a few more (I don't have a chainfist, for example) but I've got enough to run a five man team with either an assault cannon or a CML. Maybe people underestimating them will help them out; it works for Vanguard. :)

[Mysticaria]

The best thing about tactical terminators is that everyone "knows" they are bad and they don't know what to do when I deploy a huge squad of them. Out of all the units in my army, nothing has confused more opponents or won more games than the tactical terminators. I would normally be happy to have the collective internet continue to opine on the worthlessness of tactical terminators, but I do feel like I must comment. I agree with most of your ratings, but I would urge you to nudge tactical terminators up to 3 stars. Yeah, they aren't 3++ save of the T-hammers, but they still have the same number of S8 powerweapon attacks and they still have a 2+. Adding in the option to shoot, the ability to take cyclone missile launchers, and the chance to take a cheap chainfist or two really doesn't place them 3 stars lower on the totem pole than the T-hammers.

 

-Myst

[Hellios]

The best thing about tactical terminators is that everyone "knows" they are bad and they don't know what to do when I deploy a huge squad of them. Out of all the units in my army, nothing has confused more opponents or won more games than the tactical terminators. I would normally be happy to have the collective internet continue to opine on the worthlessness of tactical terminators, but I do feel like I must comment. I agree with most of your ratings, but I would urge you to nudge tactical terminators up to 3 stars. Yeah, they aren't 3++ save of the T-hammers, but they still have the same number of S8 powerweapon attacks and they still have a 2+. Adding in the option to shoot, the ability to take cyclone missile launchers, and the chance to take a cheap chainfist or two really doesn't place them 3 stars lower on the totem pole than the T-hammers.

 

-Myst

 

It really depends what you do... I almost always assume terminators will walk towards me during the game and if that is the case and I was using my Eldar I would just unload Shruiken on you... The same points of Dire Avengers as they have terminators seems to work pretty well for killing termies... hell you can do it in one round if you have guide and doom.

 

I really guess it is how you use them... as I said I would kill you the hard way... but unlike TH+SS terminators you can't just point and click and take vindicator shells to the face. I find many people don't like to think about how units are used and if they are 'fragile' they are automatically disgarded... I find this happens a lot with my Eldar and Dark eldar when playing against people who have never played them before... at the start of the game they laugh at T3 5+ AV10... at the end they beg for death :tu: It's how you use your tools in the end and the 'internet' should only be used as a source of reference and never the be all and end all.

[fredbob524]

@deus how did I contradict myself

[Jackelope King]

On tactical Terminators, as far as Codex: Space Marines is concerned, they've effectively traded their storm shields in for a storm bolter and a 5++ invulnerable. They are spectacularly fragile, especially against close-combat specialists, or anyone with a power weapon, really.

 

Why so weak, though? Won't they deal a lot of damage when they hit?

 

Actually, it's if they hit.

 

Remember, a unit of standard, tactical Terminators only has 3 attacks on the charge at I4. Those other 12 power fist swings need to wait until I1, after everyone and their grandmothers have already taken a whack at you. If the other unit has a respectable number of power weapon attacks, you're toast. 5++ might as well be cardboard. So tactical Terminators hold an unenviable position of being king of the heap of guys who aren't that good in assault. That's fine, actually. Using them to plow into a squad of light or heavy infantry and sweep them aside works fine, and they do quite well at that role.

 

But when you take a squad of tactical Terminators, you are necessarily denying yourself one of the more specialist Elites, all of whom are better at their specialty than the tactical Terminators ever could be. In exchange for any specialty skill, you get the ability to be a presence on the table with a yellow-zone stretching 30", or a potential green-zone of 54" with the Cyclone Missile Launcher (a good purchase, I agree strongly). However, how does this benefit a modern, 5e Codex: Space Marines army? The Missiles are nice for opening transports, certainly, but 230 points for 2 shots and limited mobility to threaten side armor is very expensive, especially considering the value you get in Typhoon Speeders. Their mobility, frankly, stinks. They're an abnormality in power armored armies, being unable to use cheap transports. Deep Striking helps mitigate this, but only once, after which they're just as slow as ever. What Terminators give us is a bunch of S4AP5 shots that Codex: Space Marines isn't exactly hurting for, more-expensive Krak Missile shots, and an additional power fist to swing on a model that gets cut up by close-combat specialists just as easily as a Sergeant.

 

There are definitely still lists they work in, and perform admirably. But they don't work quite as easily as the big 3 in most lists (Assault Terminators, Dreadnoughts, or Sternguard).