Meshing Elites

[ShinyRhino]

Tac Terminators are equally as effective as any other Elites choice.

 

Compared to Assault Terminators...Tac Terminators are cheaper, and have a shooting attack. Cheaper? Yes. They don't require the investment in a 250+ point Land Raider to cart them around the board.

 

Compared to Dreads...more survivable. 2+ armor save versus all anti-tank fire that isn't a lascannon. Against lascannons, you get a 5++ save. Dreads? They trade their ability tos hoot for a turn to fire smoke, which is a one-time deal. Kraks, autocannons, lascannons, etc all reliably smash Dreads in the face.

 

Compared to Sternguard...more survivable. 2+/5++ is better than 3+ any day. Tac Termies do lose out on purchasing Rhinos and special ammo, though. Sternguard are the closest comparison to Tac Termies, but cannot fire and maneuver as well without a paper-thin transport to ferry them into Rapid Fire range.

[Jackelope King]

Compared to Assault Terminators...Tac Terminators are cheaper, and have a shooting attack. Cheaper? Yes. They don't require the investment in a 250+ point Land Raider to cart them around the board.

Check. But that also means assault terminators will be more mobile, and they aren't a liability in close combat if a power weapon shows up. Choppier and much, much more survivable.

 

Compared to Dreads...more survivable. 2+ armor save versus all anti-tank fire that isn't a lascannon. Against lascannons, you get a 5++ save. Dreads? They trade their ability tos hoot for a turn to fire smoke, which is a one-time deal. Kraks, autocannons, lascannons, etc all reliably smash Dreads in the face.

Wrong. Dreads come packages with a 3+ save, as do all vehicles. Read the vehicle damage chart ;) Further, Dreads are still able to shoot from cover to be obscured (waddling behind a Rhino, standing behind a tree, etc.), for what amounts to FNP on the dreads with that cover save. Shootier, and cheaper. And much, much more durable except at low points-values with low armor-saturation (Terminators will have their days ruined by rapid-fire anti-personnel weaponry, Dreads will laugh at your puny bolters).

 

Compared to Sternguard...more survivable. 2+/5++ is better than 3+ any day. Tac Termies do lose out on purchasing Rhinos and special ammo, though. Sternguard are the closest comparison to Tac Termies, but cannot fire and maneuver as well without a paper-thin transport to ferry them into Rapid Fire range.

Sternguard are very similar in cost, much shootier (2 heavy flamer upgrades) and much more maneuverable. Wearing a Rhino on the outside can help mitigate the fact that Sternguard die just as fast as Tactical Marines, but this is clearly a check in the Tactical Termiantors' favor. Mech is faster than foot in Codex: Space Marines ;)

 

In every case, the Tactical Terminators can pick up some of the slack and do some of the job, but in no case is it a better choice. Now if we're talking Space Wolves or Blood Angels, they start to look nicer. Space Wolves are very nice on foot, have serious competition in the Fast Attack slots for Typhoons, and and can spam Cyclone Missile Launchers and Missiles in general like nobody's business (not true tactical terminators, of course, but single Wolf Guard models filling a similar role). Blood Angels can give the Terminators FNP to make them really laugh off small-arms fire, though I'm not as sold on 'em (takes slots away from Sanguinary Priests and Sanguinary Guard, and points away from Assault Squads and their toys).

[fredbob524]

Honestly my biggest problem with Tac terminators is they cost the same as the assault ones and while they have much better shooting they are still not nearly as good in cc. yes they fill a different gap, one of more fire support but i feel i can get that done better with a cheaper unit

[ShinyRhino]

Umm, taking a glancing hit is HARDLY akin to a 3+ cover save.

[thade]

Umm, taking a glancing hit is HARDLY akin to a 3+ cover save.

 

Agreed. One failed save in a squad loses me a marine but I can still shoot that round. One failed save for my vehicle means I'm in trouble...either I can shoot this round but can no longer move, or I can't shoot this round. Either way, those points are tied up (or lost) by one failed save.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@deus how did I contradict myself

 

See the quoted sections below. The bolded items are what I was looking at specifically:

 

 

the problem with iron clads is they take slots away from riflemen dreads assault termies and sternguard. Oh and sternguard should definitely be in a rhino and should only get out when it is blown up, this increases their survivability greatly.

 

I run my sternguard either 5 with two lascannons, or 5 with 5 combis if I run the combis then turn 2 i hop out unload the combis and turn three I am back in the vehicle not getting shot

 

 

You said that Sternguard should get out only when their Rhino is blown up, then you said that they should hop out, rapid fire, then jump back in. That, my friend, is a clear contradiction of your first statement about never getting out.

[Jackelope King]

Umm, taking a glancing hit is HARDLY akin to a 3+ cover save.

 

Agreed. One failed save in a squad loses me a marine but I can still shoot that round. One failed save for my vehicle means I'm in trouble...either I can shoot this round but can no longer move, or I can't shoot this round. Either way, those points are tied up (or lost) by one failed save.

That's incorrect.

 

On 67% of glancing hit results, my vehicle remains a threat that must be dealt with. Indeed, just taking a Rifleman configuration as an example, a single glancing hit, assuming no other damage, can't possible remove it as a threat for the turn. Further, I can spam multiples of this, and many vehicles in this weight-class very, very easily and on the cheap. So 2/3 of glancing hits leave you at the mercy of Lanchester's Square Law. And remember that this all comes after you've shot through any Obscured cover-save I get.

 

That's not to say that fire-suppression isn't reasonable or possible. To the contrary, it's one of the reasons I like autocannons so much, and it's actually the key to beating Mechdar. However, it doesn't take fire-suppression to deal with tactical Terminators. Regular anti-personnel weapons, the kind that are largely harmless to vehicles, can and will force saves on expensive terminators, and kill them off (because they're very expensive to mech up). However, people disregarding the vehicle damage table in this way, and the resilience that vehicles show in 5th Edition, is counter-productive for a tactica forum.

[thade]

Umm, taking a glancing hit is HARDLY akin to a 3+ cover save.

 

Agreed. One failed save in a squad loses me a marine but I can still shoot that round. One failed save for my vehicle means I'm in trouble...either I can shoot this round but can no longer move, or I can't shoot this round. Either way, those points are tied up (or lost) by one failed save.

That's incorrect.

 

...

 

I disagree, and I see your Lancaster with Occam's Razor.

 

Here are the possible results from a Glance:

 

1. Shaken = Can't Shoot = You are not a threat for the following turn.

2. Stunned = Can't Move or Shoot = You are not a threat for the following turn.

3. Weapon Destroyed = You're a tank shocking threat, which - vs MEQ - isn't so impressive. Your threat has been reduced.

4. Immobilized = You can still shoot but you can't turn: your threat has been reduced.

 

Now, if instead of a glance you lost a member of your Devastator squad, the squad can still fire in the following round; if they fail a morale check and are either sheparded off the board or hit the table edge, they're no longer a threat...otherwise they're a potentially reduced threat do to range/positioning change, but they can still fire. Fire = threat, in my mind. Unable to fire = reprieve for a turn.

 

That was my angle.

 

EDIT: Let me add that I don't entirely agree with this angle, as if the vehicle can still potentially move or shoot in future turns, it is still very much a threat. However, if unable to do one or both for a turn, it's no longer a "pressing threat", so you might divert your fire elsewhere...unless nothing would please you more than taking that vehicle out for good.

[LardO'Blood]

Terminator Squad ★★☆☆☆

 

2+ save. Storm Bolters. Cyclone Missile Launchers. Power Fists Galore. A2 base. And a "just because" 5+ invulnerable save. They're solid. They're solid for their points. But I rate them very poorly.

 

Because they're elites. By the fluff, they damn well better be elites. They're the epitome of what an elite unit should be. Better in every regard than a Tactical Marine. But that also means they're competing for their slots with close-combat specialists like the Terminator Assault Squad, close-ranged fire specialists like Sternguard, and long-ranged fire specialists like the Rifleman Dreadnought. They're just too generalist to really fill niches as easily as those other folks. But at 2 stars, they can certainly work in certain lists that need this sort of a generalist.

Your rating system seems very skewed, do you mean that you are rating their ability to help a list or how many lists they can be used in?

 

On tactical Terminators, as far as Codex: Space Marines is concerned, they've effectively traded their storm shields in for a storm bolter and a 5++ invulnerable. They are spectacularly fragile, especially against close-combat specialists, or anyone with a power weapon, really.

 

Why so weak, though? Won't they deal a lot of damage when they hit?

 

Actually, it's if they hit.

 

Remember, a unit of standard, tactical Terminators only has 3 attacks on the charge at I4. Those other 12 power fist swings need to wait until I1, after everyone and their grandmothers have already taken a whack at you. If the other unit has a respectable number of power weapon attacks, you're toast. 5++ might as well be cardboard. So tactical Terminators hold an unenviable position of being king of the heap of guys who aren't that good in assault. That's fine, actually. Using them to plow into a squad of light or heavy infantry and sweep them aside works fine, and they do quite well at that role.

 

But when you take a squad of tactical Terminators, you are necessarily denying yourself one of the more specialist Elites, all of whom are better at their specialty than the tactical Terminators ever could be. In exchange for any specialty skill, you get the ability to be a presence on the table with a yellow-zone stretching 30", or a potential green-zone of 54" with the Cyclone Missile Launcher (a good purchase, I agree strongly). However, how does this benefit a modern, 5e Codex: Space Marines army? The Missiles are nice for opening transports, certainly, but 230 points for 2 shots and limited mobility to threaten side armor is very expensive, especially considering the value you get in Typhoon Speeders. Their mobility, frankly, stinks. They're an abnormality in power armored armies, being unable to use cheap transports. Deep Striking helps mitigate this, but only once, after which they're just as slow as ever. What Terminators give us is a bunch of S4AP5 shots that Codex: Space Marines isn't exactly hurting for, more-expensive Krak Missile shots, and an additional power fist to swing on a model that gets cut up by close-combat specialists just as easily as a Sergeant.

 

There are definitely still lists they work in, and perform admirably. But they don't work quite as easily as the big 3 in most lists (Assault Terminators, Dreadnoughts, or Sternguard).

Jackelope, I doubt I have more experience in 40k but hear me out. You bring up valid points, however, it seems to me like you never tried tactical terminators and have only used theory hammer. And that when you used tactical terminators you misused them. In my argument for tactical terminators I will present three points, ranged firepower, close combat ability, maneuverability and miscellaneous.

 

The CML is priced just right in C:SM. 30 points is the equivalent of two missile launchers on a devastator squad, which is what the CML is. The firepower is like this:

Devastator squad: 152

5 guys

2 guys with missile launchers

Tactical Terminator squad with same capabilities: 230

5 guys, 1 with CML

So if you want missile shots, take the devastators, they can even take 4 missile launchers! But if you think the 78 points are worth relentless, good CC ability and 2+, 5++ then go for the terminators.

 

Tactical terminators are not close combat specialists! If you think they are, frankly, your either extremely short sighted or a moron. They have storm bolters, why would they give a close combat specialist storm bolters? Wait, they didn't! Tactical terminators are the ultimate space marine, they do everything decently well. They can easily bust a land raider with their powerfist, a chain fist or two, or a CML. They can mow down hordes (not the best use though) with storm bolters, heavy flamers and assault cannons. They can run down and kill more or less any depleted unit with relentless, assault weapons and powerfists. They can dispatch elite shooty infantry like sternguard in close combat. A 5 man squad has 12 power fists and 3 power weapon attacks. Well you might say, they strike at I1! Their 2+ armor means they can shrug off a couple of attacks back, this reinforces the idea of them beating up the depleted units. The math hammer says that a 5 man tactical terminator squad receives 0.83 wounds from an upgraded, 10 man sternguard squad in close combat and they deal 7.42 casualties, this will probably result in the sternguard failing their leadership check and escaping, only to be shot up the next round or assaulted. Equally they can kick carnifexes around with a krak missile or two to soften it up and a few fists to finish it. Another thing that suggests they are for beating up the depleted units is their lack of ability to make a sweeping advance, this makes them best against units they kill in one combat phase.

 

As for maneuverability, what other unit in C:SM has a standard shooting range of 24" and can move 6" consistently each turn? None bar dreadnoughts. Sternguard come close with bolts firing 30" at AP4 and LotD could do this but they are just not extremely practical and their movement isn't consistent. A ten man tactical squad with a rhino costs 205 points minimum, and only has an effective range of 26". Plus in rapid fire range the sternguard or tactical squad will be assaulted by the majority of armies, in my experience, they will lose. This is another advantage terminators have, they can walk around 23.9" away and bolt the pants off of a unit that can't assault them. If they manage to run up against an obstacle or get pinned or are stopped for some reason they can counter charge while firing their storm bolters (so they have the same ranged attack standard as the 205 point tactical squad firing bolt pistols and charging) Even in close combat they exceed the tactical squad or dreadnought. A dreadnought only has two attacks base, a standard tactical terminator squad has ten, eight of which are power fists and the other two are power weapons. A tactical squad has eleven or twelve depending on how your sergeant is armed. They have the ability to screw over an enemies plans with deep-striking to, once again, compared to a tactical squad they are 200 points vs a tactical squad of ten with a drop pod that costs 205. Drop pods have inertial guidance, but can't use teleport homers.

 

As for miscellaneous they can add a land raider to your force without costing a heavy support slot. Terminators can block LoS to pretty much any unit in the space marine codex except for vehicles. A newer opponent may be fazed by them and try to avoid them the whole game, if they are ignored they will pop vehicles or kill something important. They can be counter charge for your tactical squads while not sitting idly if the squads aren't threatened because they can shoot to.

 

All in all I think tactical terminators are THE BEST choice in a space marine army, bar maybe landspeeders, bike squads and certain HQ. They are certainly the best slogging marines and what makes them really shine is that they do everything well.(Im trying not to sound like a broken record right now) I encourage anybody who does not own tactical terminators to buy a kit, even if you don't like them in the game they look pretty and will probably sell on Ebay for a nice sum if you paint them up a bit past table top quality. I can't think of any unit that does what they do better for a reasonable sum (doing everything that is) and I highly advocate trying them out. They are one of the most fun units to master (I haven't mastered them yet) and are certainly not point-click. All this agrees that yes, they should be in an army that doesn't need specialists like dreadnoughts, sternguard or assault terminators but like all delicacies they should be used in small quantities, not overflowing and replacing the regulars (But that doesn't mean I wont do it :lol:). The main problem I see is that they are Uber tacticals, its hard to base an army around them if you aren't deathwing or loganwing because the required troop choices are just downgraded versions. I think (not entirely sure) that you can get away with this in C:BA or C:SW with assaulty and shooty troop choices though.

 

But all this is irrelevant, this thread is about meshing elite choices into the rest of your army vs. building your army around the elites and also how to use them in coordination with other units.

[Mysticaria]

On the tactical terminators.... where are you guys playing where every enemy unit is filled with power weapons? You have your entire army at your disposal, plus the shooting of the tactical terminators, to deal with any uber combat units. Saying that tactical terminators are bad because they aren't designed to take on the most elite of hand-to-hand units in hand-to-hand combat is just a little wrong. They are going to crush anything but the most close-combat of units in hand-to-hand, and they can outshoot any but the most shooty. Remember you still have the rest of the army to cover those weaknesses, and the flexibility provided in being able to close range or keep range open depending on the scenario is priceless. Assault terminators aren't going to give you that, that's for certain. There is some value in having options, and having each game not play out exactly like the one before it.

 

-Myst

[Captain Idaho]

On the tactical terminators.... where are you guys playing where every enemy unit is filled with power weapons?

 

I often wonder this myself! Against such opponents Assault Terminators die just as easily as they strike last too...

 

Tactical Terminators fit nicely into an army with 2 Dreads and a bunch of Tacticals, as a solid core that can counter attack sufficiently and shoot well. If the opponent is a massive danger in assaults, then just don't counter charge, shoot them instead :P

 

It's how you build your list really. I could make use of a squad in my army, which isn't just about rushing forward to assault opponents with a Landraider borne Vulkan unit with a couple Tactical squads and Multi-melta Attack bikers in support. My army has ranged firepower, mobility in 3 Transport equipped infantry, good counter charge ability and attack capacity in my assault elements. Essentially a balanced, flexible approach. In this army, a squad of Terminators would fit in nicely.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I just don't find tactical terminators interesting because their firepower is just unimpressive. Yeah, 5 of them can move and shoot storm bolters at 24" like a full tac squad fires bolters, but that's just 'OK', not earth shattering. The cyclone and assault cannon are an OK boost, but neither one is extremely impressive, and the heavy flamer doesn't work well while walking. Meanwhile sternguard get special ammo that is scary to pretty much every opponent except terminators, cheap combi-meltas for vehicles, or cheap combi-plasmas for terminators. They can ride in a rhino, and can bring 2 heavy flamers along for the drive-by.

 

I don't think they're a bad unit, I just don't see why I'd want them in a general list over sternguard or assault terminators.

 

I often wonder this myself! Against such opponents Assault Terminators die just as easily as they strike last too...

 

Assault terminators get a 3+ save against power weapons, tacticals get a 5+, that's not 'just as easily'. Assault terminators in 5th edition are really about the storm shield, not their weapons.

[ShinyRhino]

Assault terminators get a 3+ save against power weapons, tacticals get a 5+, that's not 'just as easily'. Assault terminators in 5th edition are really about the storm shield, not their weapons.

 

And I'd have to ask in echo of previous posters...what environment are you playing in in which every unit on the board is packing massed power weapons?

[Jackelope King]

Back on topic, how to go about meshing your elites choices with the rest of your force.

 

Elites, in Codex: Space Marines, are some of our killiest units. With a nod to Warp Angel, they're often times our "killers". They have a higher damage-output potential than our troops by far, and usually against a wider variety of potential foes. Your elite choice should reflect three things about your force:

1. Where does my force operate? A mechanized list built from Codex: Space Marines is the best army in the game at holding midfield. Par-none. A Rhino bunker parked midfield with a Multi-Melta squad inside is cheap, durable, and creates a big, fat 24" yellow-zone around the Rhino. An army which operates midfield can easily support forward elements that operate up-close and personal with the enemy as their primary killers, but they can also very strongly support other midfield units.
   
2. What is my force weak against? A mechanized Marines force, though, is dependent on large amounts of relatively light armor, so it can be threatened by a strong enemy firebase. You can answer this with a firebase of your own that seeks to shut down the enemy firebase, or at least threaten it enough to draw fire from your more vulnerable transports. You can also answer this with a forward threat dedicated to killing the enemy firebase ASAP.
   
3. What can accentuate my force's threats? Finally, we come to the real meshing, the force-multiplier aspect of the game. Taking my Bikers, for instance, we have a pretty quick army. It seems even faster against a slow, spread-out army. So if I dedicate some points towards blasting light transports out from under an enemy army, I accentuate my fast threats (bikes and speeders). The slower your enemy is, the faster you are, in effect. For a mechanized force, it might mean killing off the enemy's anti-tank firepower.
   

And above all else, keep this basic tenet in mind:

The game of 40k is lost when your enemy presents more threats than you are able to handle. So when in doubt, spam threats and spam threats and spam threats. Don't take 1 speeder when you can take 3.

 

When it comes to your elites (or any force org chart slot, really), these are the questions you need to use to decide what should be included.

[Captain Idaho]

Assault terminators get a 3+ save against power weapons, tacticals get a 5+, that's not 'just as easily'. Assault terminators in 5th edition are really about the storm shield, not their weapons.

 

Yes and no.

 

A single Genestealer is not going to threaten a unit with 3+ saves. A unit of 8-10 charging into them will have 24-30 attacks and will typically put enough wounds on the Assault Terminators that the 3+ invulnerable save wont make a difference. In this instance their assault potential becomes the same as their brethren.

 

The Assault Terminators are a great bastion against some extremely tough and dangeros targets like Greater Daemons and other Monstrous Creatures but lose their efficiency against other targets, whilst the more attacks they are expected to face the less effective they are at dealing with a threat. In these circumstances "Tactical" Terminators fill a niche, able to be just as useful in close combat as their Assault minded brethren but also act as a mobile reserve and shooting support unit all in one.

 

Back on topic, how to go about meshing your elites choices with the rest of your force.

 

Elites, in Codex: Space Marines, are some of our killiest units. With a nod to Warp Angel, they're often times our "killers". They have a higher damage-output potential than our troops by far, and usually against a wider variety of potential foes. Your elite choice should reflect three things about your force:

 

1. Where does my force operate? A mechanized list built from Codex: Space Marines is the best army in the game at holding midfield. Par-none. A Rhino bunker parked midfield with a Multi-Melta squad inside is cheap, durable, and creates a big, fat 24" yellow-zone around the Rhino. An army which operates midfield can easily support forward elements that operate up-close and personal with the enemy as their primary killers, but they can also very strongly support other midfield units.
   
2. What is my force weak against? A mechanized Marines force, though, is dependent on large amounts of relatively light armor, so it can be threatened by a strong enemy firebase. You can answer this with a firebase of your own that seeks to shut down the enemy firebase, or at least threaten it enough to draw fire from your more vulnerable transports. You can also answer this with a forward threat dedicated to killing the enemy firebase ASAP.
   
3. What can accentuate my force's threats? Finally, we come to the real meshing, the force-multiplier aspect of the game. Taking my Bikers, for instance, we have a pretty quick army. It seems even faster against a slow, spread-out army. So if I dedicate some points towards blasting light transports out from under an enemy army, I accentuate my fast threats (bikes and speeders). The slower your enemy is, the faster you are, in effect. For a mechanized force, it might mean killing off the enemy's anti-tank firepower.
   

And above all else, keep this basic tenet in mind:

The game of 40k is lost when your enemy presents more threats than you are able to handle. So when in doubt, spam threats and spam threats and spam threats. Don't take 1 speeder when you can take 3.

 

When it comes to your elites (or any force org chart slot, really), these are the questions you need to use to decide what should be included.

 

Excellent stuff though I would like to point out that the last thing about spamming units is a separate discussion altogether. Spamming capacity in the army does not neccessarily mean duplication.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Assault terminators get a 3+ save against power weapons, tacticals get a 5+, that's not 'just as easily'. Assault terminators in 5th edition are really about the storm shield, not their weapons.

 

And I'd have to ask in echo of previous posters...what environment are you playing in in which every unit on the board is packing massed power weapons?

 

And I'd have to ask what possible relevance your question has to my post, since I made no claim about my environment or the prevalence of power weapons. Assault terminators do not die 'just as easily' to power weapons as regular terminators, much like sisters of battle with a 3+ save to not die 'just as easily' to normal attacks as guardsmen with a 5+ save.

 

A single Genestealer is not going to threaten a unit with 3+ saves. A unit of 8-10 charging into them will have 24-30 attacks and will typically put enough wounds on the Assault Terminators that the 3+ invulnerable save wont make a difference. In this instance their assault potential becomes the same as their brethren.

 

It takes twice as many genestealers to put enough wounds on a unit of assault terminators to kill them as it does on a unit of regular terminators. "It takes twice as much" means 'it is not just as easy', I'm really not sure how you can seriously argue that a 3+ save unit is 'just as easy' to kill as a 5+ save unit.

[ShinyRhino]

Assault terminators get a 3+ save against power weapons, tacticals get a 5+, that's not 'just as easily'. Assault terminators in 5th edition are really about the storm shield, not their weapons.

 

And I'd have to ask in echo of previous posters...what environment are you playing in in which every unit on the board is packing massed power weapons?

 

And I'd have to ask what possible relevance your question has to my post, since I made no claim about my environment or the prevalence of power weapons. Assault terminators do not die 'just as easily' to power weapons as regular terminators, much like sisters of battle with a 3+ save to not die 'just as easily' to normal attacks as guardsmen with a 5+ save.

 

You keep going on about storm shields. In close combat the only thing storm shields are used against are power weapons. Unless the enemy is packing a large number of power weapons, storm shields are actually irrelevant, as both Tac and Assault Terminators rely on their ARMOR save in close combat. Against a unit that relies purely on attack volume (Hormagaunts, Ork Boyz, etc), Tac and Assault Terminators are equally survivable, since they're rolling on a 2+ save.

 

 

A single Genestealer is not going to threaten a unit with 3+ saves. A unit of 8-10 charging into them will have 24-30 attacks and will typically put enough wounds on the Assault Terminators that the 3+ invulnerable save wont make a difference. In this instance their assault potential becomes the same as their brethren.

 

It takes twice as many genestealers to put enough wounds on a unit of assault terminators to kill them as it does on a unit of regular terminators. "It takes twice as much" means 'it is not just as easy', I'm really not sure how you can seriously argue that a 3+ save unit is 'just as easy' to kill as a 5+ save unit.

 

Again, massed attacks from something liek Genestealers are rolling against a 2+ armor save the majority of the time. With the number of incoming attacks and wounds, and using wound allocation, you can actually stack Rending wounds on one or two Terminators who have separated wargear (assault cannon, CML, or heavy flamer). Total maximum loss of one Terminator to Rending wounds. Assault Terminators do not have the same luxury,unless you drop the shields for claws, and then the claw Terminators are at the same saves as Tac Tarminators, without any shooting.

 

I think you'll find Assault Terminators are better at taking SHOOTING saves than they are at taking close combat saves, due to low volume of armor-ignoring shots.

[LardO'Blood]

Ok, slightly relavent question: Why do people always say it's better for all the models to be different for wound allocation? Isn't it better that they are or less the same so it's easier to choose which to take the wound (if they are the same just kill the one that is farthest away to enemy or something)

[Mysticaria]

the genestealer question is a bad analogy. Most of the genestealer attacks will be non-rending so technically the storm shields will die "just as easily". Add to that the fact that genestealers won't get a save from the tactical shooting and I would much rather have tactical terminators in this instance. Just to throw this in there, the example used earlier about a tactical squad creating a 24" yellow zone in the middle of the board.... tactical terminators are the perfect answer for that. Walk right up, krak missile the transport, and assault the contents. Assault terminators might be able to get there and accomplish the same thing, but you risk bringing that LR in range of the melta and of course the massed bolter fire is bound to cause a casualty or two on the turn you smash the transport.

 

Anyway, my point is not to advocate just for tactical terminators above all else... I just want to see some people use some honest critical thinking and admit that "flexibility" can be an assett. There are times when you aren't going to want to get into close combat with the enemy right away and tactical terminators (like sternguard) bring flexibility to the army.

 

To me, this is especially important to consider when we talk about meshing elites. Assault terminators mesh with an army because they fill a strong assault role and if that role supports the armies plan then they mesh. Meanwhile, tactical terminators can fill two roles (assault or shooting) and can use their flexibility to enhance the most effective role in any matchup. The meshing part comes in where you think about the rest of the list. If you want to use assault terminators you have to take something else to cover their weakness, but when you take tactical marines you are taking them for their flexibility. It may in fact be more effective to take the assault terminators, for they are really good at what they do.... but just be open minded enough to see that it doesn't make tactical terminators bad at what they do. There is value to being flexible, and being able to adjust your game plan to focus on your opponent's weakness.

 

-Myst

[LardO'Blood]

Ok, we have established that tactical terminators are flexible, so how do they work their way into lists? Do you add them for backup or to cover a shooting and assaulting weakness?

[Captain Idaho]

Both of course! They fulfill both roles to ensure you have a flexible reserve or middle ground unit that can support your army in multiple roles.

 

But then they really shine in a list built primarily with flexibility in mind as opposed to dominance in a single type of warfare. Ironically the opposite of Assault Terminators who generally have to have a list built around them and their Landraider due to the high points investment their inclusion warrants.

[ShinyRhino]

But then they really shine in a list built primarily with flexibility in mind as opposed to dominance in a single type of warfare. Ironically the opposite of Assault Terminators who generally have to have a list built around them and their Landraider due to the high points investment their inclusion warrants.

 

This. Make up a list made largely of tactical Marines with mixed special, heavy, and sergeant loadouts. Add Tac Terminators, combi-Preds, etc. You've now got a balanced, mixed force that has a chance against any opponent because it's got tools for every job on every unit.

Think of it as "Space Marine Classic".

[Brother Xeones]

I've been writing on this off and on for a few hours now, and some of what I've written has now been covered by others in the time it's taken me to write it, but I figure I'll post it anyway:

 

There are a number of ways that elites can work in tandem with other units in your list in order to generate effective unit synergy. I'd like to cover two general principles of unit synergy below.

 

One way is to combine multiple units with the same strengths in order to maximize the abilities which those units have in common. For instance, pairing a Drop Podding Multi-melta Dreadnought with a unit of Combi-melta Sternguard can make both units more effective against enemy armor. Maximizing strengths is typically a more offensively-minded strategy. It makes you better at what you were already good at, but it often has the side effect of magnifying your weaknesses as well.

 

In contrast, you can also pair units together who can help reduce the apparent weaknesses or deficiencies in one another. An example of this could be a plasma cannon/CCW dreadnought paired with Missile Launcher Devastators. While the dreadnought can provide additional ranged firepower, it can also act as a CC deterrent for outflanking assault units thereby keeping the Devs safer. Combining units to minimize weaknesses is typically a more defensively-minded strategy. This approach often means that your strengths will be less overwhelming, but your weaknesses will be harder to exploit.

 

Tactical Terminators

Since everyone seems to be talking about tactical terminators, let's start with them:

Tactical terminators are one of the most generalist elites choices available to Space Marines. This is why they are both loved and hated. People whine that they are not nearly as shooty as Sternguard while others whine that they are not nearly as good in assault as assault terminators, but that's kinda that point. :rolleyes: They fill a niche in between these two units. With a number of (required) generalists already in our troops slots in the form of Tactical squads, its understandable why many people pass these guys up for more specialist elites choices. However, with the perspective of pairing strengths or counteracting weaknesses, a few units come to mind which can mesh quite well with tactical terminators, and, in some lists, may perform quite well depending on the needs of the player.

 

Since tactical terminators are good generalists, the obvious option would be to pair them with other generalist units. Many people love to pair tactical squads and tactical terminators. This pairing can be quite handy for holding vital objectives. For example, A tactical squad with a homing beacon could call in a squad of tac termies to support their position. In this role, the terminators can teleport in, and provide tangible help on the turn they arrive in the form of storm bolter and heavy weapons fire while providing a CC deterrent to all but the most specialist CC attackers. Similarly, Tactical terminators with an assault cannon paired with a couple of assault cannon dreadnoughts can be a very strong and flexible midfield force.

 

Pairing units with generalists in order to counteract a weakness is still something that can be, and is done, but is generally something that changes on a game-to-game basis depending on what sort of weakness you need to counteract. However, there are still pairings which people might use to counteract the weaknesses of tactical terminators. A librarian with Gate of Infinity could, for instance, be attached to the squad in order to counteract their weak mobility without sacrificing their firepower or having to pay the high price of a landraider taxi that assault terminators typically do. Similarly, you might run an HQ option with a solid number of high initiative attacks to thin the opponent's numbers and make up for the fact the the majority of the squad will swing last at I1.

 

Most units you've mentioned can use these principles to come up with advantageous unit combos if you know what you want to accomplish with them. These pairings can be your standard game strategy or they can be something you do on-the-fly for a turn or two in a single game. Most units (used well) should be supporting other portions of your army anyway. The concept of mutual support is a fundamental aspect of tactics, but much of it boils down to common sense. Ask first, "What are my goals?" and second, "How can my units work together to achieve those goals?". Some people may view this as an overly simplified view of the problem, but that's the way I see it.

[LardO'Blood]

Just thought I'd do this for any future people who want to run tactical terminators, these are lists of threads regarding them. They seem to be one of those threads that comes up every few months (I think I have gone back to the start of C:SM5 but I'm not sure):

Lysander with Tactical Terminators Discussions

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Tactical Terminator Weapon Configuration

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Army Building and Tactical Terminators

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Ten Man Terminator Squads

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Tactical (mostly) Terminator Tactics

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Tactical Terminators vs. Assault Terminators

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

I think all of these links are helpful, if they aren't then tell me and I'll remove the ones that aren't. I hope that somebody will make use of these links I compiled and try tactical terminators out.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Brother Xeones: I agree whole heartidly. I always advocate Space Marines not being purely a specialist army, rather a generalist one with capacity for some specialisation.

 

Pairing strengths in an army gives your army more effectiveness on the table and ultimately more success. When pairing strengths it's usually a good idea to do so with units which complement the weaknesses of the units they are paired with. So Tactical squads provide the numbers and Terminators the counter charge capacity.