Restarting my 4th Ed Blood Angels

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hi guys

When i first started a few years back, i played BA based on the old WD codex. with the release of 5th ed, however, my army just got nerfed, and i couldn't win many battles after my opponent's started to drive circles around me with the mech based rules so i restarted with a C:SM army that is pretty fluffy but is very good at defeating my opponents in my community.

Recently, however, i have been reading through the codex and i feel reinspired to make my army strong again.

What advice can you guys give me? My army has LOTS of Tacticals and plenty of Assualt marines, but i only have a single Rhino/Razorback to compensate for manouverabilty and a few DP's.

Any advice on a army that can bring them back?

Thanks in advance

Rafen

[bulley]

Really hard to give a list without knowing what sort of modeling you have as well.

 

BA's are exceptionally strong now days, so it may just be that your unfortunate to have your models just done in slightly the wrong way.

 

Sounds like you've got the means to stay mobile with the drop pods, can always go with RAS w/ drop pod list and over whelm your opponent, and have the tactical in a rhino for backfield support and getting to objectives and sitting on it.

 

If your RAS's are all jump packed up, maybe go for a descent of angels list - need about 20 RAS a few vanguard vets, dante maybe etc..

 

You may have to bite the bullet and pick up some troops or tanks to round out a style though, but probably not going to cost much more than 50 quid.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, in 4th i played an "oncoming waves" tactic. Basically, Assualt squads would charge in early via jump packs, deep strike, etc and just draw fire and engage the enemy. Meanwhile, i would have Tacticals move up as fast as possible while Assualt squads distarct, and when in range complete special weapon spam of all types. Devs were their for any heavy tanks they would have, while the "swarm" of marines would put paid to hordes with massed supporting bolter/flamers. This setup wasn't the best list i have ever constructed, but it was great fun to play, and i did win a few games with it as well.

Nowadays, i just get get my ass handed to me every time that i try it since they just simply drive circles around me, and Nids with the damned Tervigon just simply overwhelm my Tacticals and sweeping advance them in a mass of models.

I guess descent of angels list would be pretty good, since i already have a starting point, but is their any way that i can salvage my Tacticals and Devs and just wasting my money?

[Brother Biskit]

The biggest strength in BA now is our mobility, however I think with the models you have stated you should be able to put together a fairly serviceable hammer and anvil type list. Three full tac squads with a priest in the middle can hold a fair few objectives and with the feel no pain be a nightmare to shift, all for less than 750 points. Just add in some JP Death Co. with a Reclusiarch and some melta assault squads and you should have a fair list.

[Dingareth]

Or you can get yourself a real list and pick up a few Rhinos for those Tactical Marines, and make sure you have 12 Missile Launchers for those Devis. It's not the best but it's a start. Add in 2 Razorback Assault Squads for some Assault Cannon goodness, a Librarian and a Priest to hang out with them, and let's say a Jump Packing Honor Guard with a few Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, and Meltaguns, and you should be good.

[Br0ther Rafen]

I am not looking for a cheesy list, just something that I can enjoy, so I don't really want do a RAS spam.

@biskit, I think that your right on the money possibly.

A point limit of roughly 1500 is usually what I play met games, sometimes more.

Just got a braiwave, what if I do something along the same lines of what I did before. But instead have more Devs and lots if San priests to back the tacticals up?

[the jeske]

it would be weaker version of the razor build . you would be playing a statik gunline with less fire power[and no rhino wall so its double bad] , which doesnt realy work even for IG. Tacs are not a good thing to base your army around for BAs. maybe one to cap objective[and even that doesnt mean a RAS cant do it] , but 3 doent make much sense. A normal sm tac at least would get better chapter tactics to use . The buff and synergy of BA lists is all about being close /chagrges/buffs to hth units etc. So to make it short there is no way you can avoid buying those rhinos/razorbacks[which by the way you should have either bought durning the rhino rush era , or durning the 4th ed when they were used for rhino sniping or durning the WD dex where mecha for BAs was a norm].

[shatter]

I dont play, nor try to build lists that are 'internet builds'. Strange as that may seem as here I am on the internets talking about lists.

 

I don't do it because it's... unoriginal and I'm arrogant enough to believe what I choose to do is.. original. Silly really, but there you go. (I field TDA, scouts & whirlwinds in my BA list which I think is pretty unusual.)

 

What are you like? Do you like to make things differently to what your gaming community expects (of a BA player)?

I see you've next to no armour and you've old school troops.

 

Try these elements

Sanguinor/Dante/Libby

priest x 1-2 (or corbolo)

2 x sternguard with HFs (assaulty sternguard) (from your excess tacticals) DPs

vanguard veterans.

(Shooty DC, RAS, deva's to make up the rest & obligatory troops)

 

Corbolo is a big deal with the sanguinor when one wants his buff to arrive (and arrive accurately) in the turn one's stuff is gonna assault. dante, priest and 10 man VV is a very versatile (DS) combo for a single reserve roll.

 

I ran a counts as list similar to this (I had tacticals as troops) a couple of months ago and caught my flatmate out by assaulting with supposed shooty units (thank you sanguinor). HF overlap (onto infantry) from the sternguards when they popped transports was amazingly effective too.

[Morticon]

I don't do it because it's... unoriginal and I'm arrogant enough to believe what I choose to do is.. original. Silly really, but there you go. (I field TDA, scouts & whirlwinds in my BA list which I think is pretty unusual.)

 

;)

 

 

I think its awesome. Original lists for the WIN.

[Br0ther Rafen]

All right, just reading through, how about i have something like this:

HQ

Libby 100pt

 

Elites

2x Sanquinary Priests

100pt

 

1x Sanquinary Priest

50pt

 

1x Sanquinary Priest

50pt

 

Troops

10x Tactical

Plasma & ML

180pt

 

10x Tactical

PLasma & ML

180pt

 

10x Tactical

Flamer

Rhino

205pt

 

Assualt Squad 10x

Meltagun

190pt

 

Assualt Squad 10x

Flamer

185pt

 

Heavy Support 845

Devs

4x ML's

130pt

 

Devs

4x ML's

130pt

 

Total 1500 points

 

The tactic is that i bombard them with massed ML fire, and counter-charge them with assualt squads if they get within 18".

San. Priests can simply stay with the tacticals or the assualt sqauds, and charge if they get to close.

What do you guys think? Not perfect, but is it playable?

[Dingareth]

Not really. Your one Rhino will get popped turn 1. You have a single Meltagun, and for some reason have spent 200 points in Sanguinary Priests at 1500 points. At most 3 bubbles, 2 would be sufficient though.

 

The Devs look good. Both your Assault Squads could use double Melta and a Power Fist. From there, I'd drop 2 Priests, and give one of your remaining ones a Jump Pack.

 

Trying to keep with what you have up there, there are a few small changes that make it a lot better, so how do you like this:

 

100- Librarian

Fear the Darkness and Sanguinary Shield

 

140- Sanguinary Priests

Sanguinary Priest

Jump Pack

Power Weapon

Sanguinary Priest

 

240- Tactical Squad

10 Tactical Marines

Missile Launcher

Meltagun

Combi-Melta

Razorback

Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer

 

240- Tactical Squad

10 Tactical Marines

Missile Launcher

Meltagun

Combi-Melta

Razorback

Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer

 

235- Assault Squad

10 Assault Marines

2 Meltaguns

Power Fist

 

220- Assault Squad

10 Assault Marines

2 Flamers

Power Weapon

Meltabomb

 

185- Devastator Squad

5 Devastator Marines

4 Missile Launchers

Razorback

Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer

 

130- Devastator Squad

5 Devastator Marines

4 Missile Launchers

 

Now, you loose one Tactical Squad in order to pick up a more effective Special Weapon allotment, and 3 Razorbacks. These provide your army with a lot of support, cover for the advancing assault squads, target variety and also, most importantly, mobility for your Tactical Squads. The plan here is to Combat Squad the Tacticals, giving you 10 Missile Launchers with Feel No Pain in your backfield, while the Razorbacks and Assault Squads move up to engage the bulk of your opponent's army. The Assault Squads can jump up and deal with infantry disembarking from the tanks that your now double-Meltagun Tactical Squads have just blow to tiny pieces. They're wasted on sitting around for 3 turns, waiting for the enemy to get close to the Tacticals. That list you posted was still a 4th Edition army, and just a few more changes will bring it into the new edition. You had a lot of good, and once you get a couple practice games in you should be able to see the new flow of combat- where movement and mobility are the biggest part of the game.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Your list does look solid Dingareth. I might proxy the Razors and see how it goes.

Does anyone have solid advice for the basic DoA army? I was thinking on starting one with Sanquinary Guard, mabye some JP Death Company. What do you guys think?

[JamesI]

Your list does look solid Dingareth. I might proxy the Razors and see how it goes.

Does anyone have solid advice for the basic DoA army? I was thinking on starting one with Sanquinary Guard, mabye some JP Death Company. What do you guys think?

A DoA army really needs a Vanguard unit. The ability to drop and assault is great in an all dropping list.

[SamaNagol]

Well considering myself and a few people were on here before the Codex even dropped talking about how effective Fast Razorbacks would be in mech builds, I feel no qualms running MY list.

 

If anyone else took inspiration from that in depth research we all did in the first few days of the Codex being on view, that's hardly cheese or spam or laziness.

[Dingareth]

Your list does look solid Dingareth. I might proxy the Razors and see how it goes.

Does anyone have solid advice for the basic DoA army? I was thinking on starting one with Sanquinary Guard, mabye some JP Death Company. What do you guys think?

 

You'll love them, nothing's better than running 12" through a forest and popping out on the other side, popping a tank and them frying the guys as they pop out!

 

At 1500, DoA becomes limited. I'd figure 2 Double Melta Assault Squads, a Libby and Command Squad, Sanguinary Guard, and a squad of Vanguard should round you out.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i'd say if you are going to add tanks to your army, go for a couple of baal preds or maybe a rifleman dread. firepower is always good, especially in a list like yours.

 

if you do go dead on arrival, i'd say, no JP death company, they sit still the first turn, get shot up, and you have to worry about the off chance he'll try to kite you around with something fast. that's always lame.

[Br0ther Rafen]

What about this:

HQ

Librarian with JP

125pt

 

Elites

Sanquinary Guard

Chapter Banner

230pt

 

Sanquinary Priest

JP PW

90pt

 

Sanquinary Priest

JP PW

90pt

 

Troops

Assault Squad

10x, Flamer, Meltagun

205pt

 

Assault Squad

10x, Flamer, Meltagun

205pt

 

Assault Squad

10x, Flamer, Meltagun

205pt

 

7x Vanguard Veterans

1 Storm Shield, Serg. with Power Fist, JP's

255pt

 

1500 points in total

 

The mix of Flamers and Melta is so that i have a choice against the army i'm versing. if it's Nids, then i could use the flamers to "stem the tide". Melta's their for a backup.

Priests would be in the Assualt squads, Libby with either the Vanguard or the Sanquimary Guard. they are both killy either way. \

What do you guys think of this?

[the jeske]

so if you lose the inv +3 you also lose the fist. that is kind of a bad. If SS then on someone else .

 

also the flamers. why ? your moving faster then horde armies , horde do not have frags so in cover you have 2 A each guy before they even strike and you have str4/t4 with +3 Sv and FnP . if they charge they wont break you . If you charge the you are not only 3A each now , but also str 5 which more or less kills horde units dead. the flamer is not needed and if you realy realy want to use a flame template then use a flame storm baal . this one at least works against meq too. Because a single flamer does not do enough wounds against meq.

And then there is the single melta... 1/3 chance of missing . yes it is 2d6 on 6" but you wont always land that close and even if you do hit and pen a single roll is not enough to be sure that tank/transport suffers enough. Too many single rolls make a single melta too random[in fact runing 2 flamers and puting anti tank somewhere else would work better. note wbat am saying here . flamers that arent realy needed in an asssault list are better then runing a single melta] .

 

where are your PF sgts. the whole idea of meq assault lists is build around a hidden str 8[9 on charge in case of BAs] weapon . If you plan to run a fist less squad , then you may as well take a tactical and build a razor build list.

[SamaNagol]

Assault Squads should all be 2 Meltagun, 1 PFist. Running them with Sanguinary Priests with Power Weapons means you will do enough damage and be survivable enough against mundane horde attacks or massed small weapons fire.

 

Try and find the points for that

[Dingareth]

Also, 7 Storm Shields is waaaaayyyyy overkill. 4's a good number, I usually go for 3 of 5 guys or 7 on 7 guys.

[Red Fury]

He means just a Storm shield and PF on the sarg and the other six VV are just basic. It would be more effective to give that PF/SS to the sarg and reduce the squad size to five and give the other 4 guys all Power weapons. That's a whole lot of killing on the turn they show up.

 

For regular assault squads you really should try to get 2 meltas and a pf into a 10 man unit. That said, I like a flamer too and run a melta, flamer, and sarg with a PF and Ipistol. It gives you that back up melta shot just in case. And against MEQ a flamer has nearly the same chance to kill a trooper than does a meltagun, of course with so much mech you do need those melta shots.

 

How about this for a DoA list:

Libby+ JP with shield and sword

3x Priests + JPs

RAS + 2xMeltas + PF

RAS + 2xMeltas + PF

RAS + 2xFlamers + PW + HFlamer + MB(Libby goes here)

VV x 10 2x(PF + SS) 4xpw 4xbasic

 

1500 total

[Br0ther Rafen]

First off, about the vanguard, I meant to say 7 guys, serg. with PF, and 1 guy with a SS. I'll fix that in a few.

I guess your right about flamers. What about have 2x Melta for each squad? I reckon that would be better against tanks.

What about PW's? Melta's can pop tanks and PW's carve up anything at I/S5.

Another thing, i was planning on having them run across the board unless i was versing something like Tau.

But still, is the rest of the list viable?

[Red Fury]

For the VV, you should drop at least one guy to get a couple PWs in there, or find the points from somewhere else. If you get them up to a 10 man squad then you have the option to combat squad and deep strike/HI to two different locations when they come from reserves, or to keep them all together for extra survivability.

 

The 2x meltas is because when you really need to kill that tank, one shot is just not reliable. 1/3 chance of missing that tank right if front of you and then you have to roll on the damage table too, the most sure thing is probably the AP roll with 8+2d6.

 

PFs are the best thing about a 10 man squad. They wound most on a 2+ and have a good chance against everything else too. Dreads and tanks and big MCs all can fall to a PF. Heck, you can instant kill Dante with just one lucky punch. PWs are great too, no doubt, but you can miss with melta shots and might be attacked by dreadnoughts and will also struggle against higher T creatures too. If you take a PW you'll want Melta bombs too, and then a PF is only 5 points more than that. For smaller squads PWs can be better just because you need to get your kills in before the opponent has a chance to really hurt the squad.

 

Another thing, i was planning on having them run across the board unless i was versing something like Tau.

Take a look at the terrain on the board, that should tell you what to do. Not the VV though, they should always use the Heroic Intervention.

 

But still, is the rest of the list viable?

Sure. I'd move some stuff around, like at least moving the PWs from the priests to the sergeants (and try to make them fists somehow), and getting at least 2 PWs into the VV squad. Maybe drop 5 assault marines to free up some points for more hardware. You'll find that the PWs/PFs do nearly all the damage and the rest of the squad is there just to soak up wounds (against MEQ anyway).

[Br0ther Rafen]

Thanks red fury, i'l post a list as soon as i can.

But one more question, what's so bad about melta bombs and PW's? Sure, they will be downed by MC's, but against tanks like dread and such they are still going to be fine, and can cuase more hurt with PW's against everything else than a fist.

[Red Fury]

The PW + MB combo isn't too bad at all. Especially with the higher I attacks, PWs can be very good.

But, for 5 points more you can have the fist that can kill MCs, can instant kill t3/t4 characters, and against vehicles it gets multiple attacks. The powerfist attacks against a dread is going to be better than one melta bomb attack just because of the number of attacks and the chance to hit.

 

The PW gets an extra attack because of the additional ccw, but when you wound on just a 4+ regularly versus the 2+ of a fist, the extra attacks will not necessarily equal extra wounds. In squads that are small, 5-man, that need to inflict the most damage possible on the charge, then PWs are the way to go to limit the amount of return attacks. In a 10 man squad, you have a pretty good meat shield of marines to keep the fist alive long enough to be able to attack at end of combat.