Gunslinger87 Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Ok, I've just finished reading the First Heretic (in two days since I got the book) and it was a fantastic read. Great book and a great addition to the HH series. I was just wondering one thing. Don't take it as criticism, but merely trying to figure out what A D-B was going for here. To me it seemed that the WB were way too quick to renounce their faith in the emperor. I mean, they were punished and humbled, but since I've spent over 10 years in the Middle-East, I have seen religious beliefs in the WB-style we have been told so much about. They are supposed to be so commited to this faith that they spend years erecting temples on their compliant worlds and slow their conquest to a standstill etc. Then one thing happens and all of a sudden they drop the faith they have been brainwashed into from turning into astartes? Religious people deny. They try to find reasons for it all to fit in their faith. They would have gratefully kneeled and hailed the Emperor as right and vowed to right their wrongs. Even if that meant not presenting their faith. Yes, upon seeing what they do on the edges of space, their faith was rightfully shaken, I would have just hoped for there to be more of a struggle to understand what was going on, rather than just say... heeey, our God did something bad to us... he must not be worthy of our devotion. Oh, and by the way, when our future Gods make us kill and drink the blood of our friends to stay alive? That's fine, we should worship these guys in stead. I know I shouldn't be looking for logic here and that it is simply too much to fit in one book (which was still amazing by the way) but I would have liked just a bit more of: "God works in mysterious ways." You don't see people abandoning their faith in God/Allah/Buddah etc, when a storm destroys their home or a tidal wave flattens their island. Although this isn't a satire, it was still a great opportunity to reflect the real world and blind faith. It might have been interesting to see the Word Bearers deny and deny and deny, until the facts overwhelmed them and all their beliefs shattered. Rather than have all their beliefs shatter because they were made to kneel. Again, this books probably comes 3rd on my list of favourite HH books after Horus Rising and Fulgrim (probably tied with Thousand sons and the two books of the original trilogy with Horus) I would just like to know if aanybody felt the same as me. And maybe if those that did have more experience with living in religious areas as those that don't. PS There are about 5 typos that I noticed in the book :P usually missing words, but it seems this book has been proofed a bit more than the others (rangin in the tens) they putting pressure on you A D-B? :-) Well you've proved you can write thhese HH books with the best of them. Wishing you NYT bestseller status soon :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I think your metaphor is missing a piece. They didn't lose their faith in the Emperor because he wrecked Monarchia, they lost their faith in the Emperor when the Emperor said "I'm not god, quit saying I am, and every time you do no matter how deeply you believe it I'm going to destroy something you built out of love, oh and you all suck and I hate you." When the very cornerstone of your faith denies its godhood and castigates you brutally for having believed it in the first place, it's going to not only topple whatever schema you try and construct to maintain that faith, but it's also going to rip a god-shaped hole in you that will demand to be filled or you will get no peace. The true believer has to have something to have faith in, it might as well be obsessive-compulsive disorder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Share Posted October 29, 2010 True, true... I still think their first impulse would be denial... it doesn't happen overnight. But good point there mate. PS I do realize that nobody can have exactly what they want in the novel, thats not how it works. I just found it a little abrupt from "zealous worship" to "indifference and subsequently hatred". Worshippers usually cannot even conceive hatred of their God, no matter what he does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 To be fair, real life religons usually don't have their deity physically appear in front of them, tell them they are wrong and he hates them, and then promptly have them destroy their greatest works to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 i feel sorry for the word bearers after reading that (i also feel sorry for the thousand sons and iron warriors)...:D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Normish Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 To be fair, real life religons usually don't have their deity physically appear in front of them, tell them they are wrong and he hates them, and then promptly have them destroy their greatest works to him. Except for that group of Pacific Islanders who worship Prince Philip. Though His Highness has let them get along with that. True, I think that the actual arrival of the God-Emperor himself and him saying "don't worship me" would be enough to shatter the kind of faith the word Bearers had. Remember, they believed in a physical God, one that was present and visible to anyone, not a mystical, unseen spiritual God like many current world religions. It would make it easier for the faith to bend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 the word bearers seem quite likeable now...was that intentional? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Maybe not "likeable", but definitely more "understood". We can now fully grasp the monstrosities from Dark Apostle et al. It's a much clearer picture that their contempt and crusade are based on fully realized and tangible rationale, not just a quest for power or some other urbane motive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Share Posted October 29, 2010 Yes, but they knew that all along... he just didn't openly criticize them for it in front of their hated counterparts. They knew all along that their worshipping him as a God was against his will. To have it confirmed, although tragically, shouldn't be such a surprise... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Yes, but they knew that all along... he just didn't openly criticize them for it in front of their hated counterparts. They knew all along that their worshipping him as a God was against his will. To have it confirmed, although tragically, shouldn't be such a surprise... The accusation of failure was probably the really telling surprise. To be declared the only Primarch and the only Legion that was failing the Crusade, in front of another Primarch, another Legion, the Custodes, and Malcador the Mere Mortal could probably only have been made more humiliating if remembrancers had been there to record it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forze Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 You also have to calculate in the influence of Kor Phaeron & Erebus, who were already seeding limited chaos worshipping (the old Colchis beliefs) in the conquered worlds. This means some of the legion were already turned before the Emperors' slap on the wrist. The legion didn't seem to care much about stopping the worship to me, but they were more dissatisfied with the harsh treatment they had been served & the fact Lorgar locked himself up in his room, not speaking to anyone but Kor Phaeron & erebus. & in the book it's mentioned that in the 40 years between, everyone who was still on the Emperor's side got himself killed accidentally, which also made the turning easier! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2548906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 & in the book it's mentioned that in the 40 years between, everyone who was still on the Emperor's side got himself killed accidentally, which also made the turning easier! The Word Bearers, under the orders of Erebus, conducted a systematic purge of the Loyalist elements of the Legion. The First Heretic, Pg 471 Less flashy than Horus's little purge, but it happened. The ones who "died in battle" are the Custodes: And so the reason for the exile of Argel Tal and his Possessed, with the Custodes becomes clear - the surviving Custodes are used to create the Spear, in Nemesis by James Swallow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2551735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Wait, what? Spear wasn't created via the Custodes, he was simply a Daemon grafted onto a person raised by Erebus. The thing he was looking for to kill the Big E was an actual drop of His holy blood put on that document in a stasis field. Plus, if you want to get completely anal retentive, it was Argel Tal who ordered the Word Bearers to open fire. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2553774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 Wait, what? Spear wasn't created via the Custodes, he was simply a Daemon grafted onto a person raised by Erebus. The thing he was looking for to kill the Big E was an actual drop of His holy blood put on that document in a stasis field. Plus, if you want to get completely anal retentive, it was Argel Tal who ordered the Word Bearers to open fire. ;) You guys are probably both partially right and wrong. I always thought that the Custodes were the first attempt, since getting the Emperor's actual blood would be too hard. So they tried it with astartes, then with Custodes etc. If I remember correctly, in the Nemesis book they do actually mention that other attempts (without pure type-E blood :-) ) faled. Those were the Custodes... not spear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2553943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrionus1 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I also feel sorry for the Word Bearers. but I also can see parallels with real word faith, blind faith or lack thereof. The word bearers faith failed them for one simple fact. They didn't listen and they jumped to conclusions in regards to the Emperor's madates for them. Their faith was based on their own invented idea of who the Emperor was and what his "will" was and not what The Emperor had actually said. So in essence it wasn't really the emperor they were worshiping, but their idea of him. The irony is that The "real" chaos gods they end up turning to and worshiping are also a product or human/alien emotions/evils etc etc and thus are also "ideas". Manifestations of emotion and thought come to life and "real" but by products of human/alien psyche nonethless. (at least thats my take on it) strange minds behind the 40k universe...strange minds....fun though =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2586063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest33 Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 Except for that group of Pacific Islanders who worship Prince Philip. Though His Highness has let them get along with that. woah... wait.. hes worshiped as a god? Perhaps Prince Philip is the God Emperor himself!!! Let the creation of the super humans begin! :) The whole problem with the "im not a god you nitwit" approach of the Emperor is that he let them do that for 200 years +. I'd be pissed to if someone let me do something that I thought was right for 200 years then at the end there like "lol no you fail at everything" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2586590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Loken Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 The way I read it was that their faith was tested and with Kor Phaeron and Erebus already (probably) worshiping chaos they took that oppurtunity to turn the legion for their own ends. It seems that Lorgar was easily led and Kor Phaeron knew what buttons to press to advance his cause. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2586673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 I think the idea that Lorgar was easily led is selling him short. Lorgar had enough humility to recognize that there were things beyond him and that his place was to serve. The problem was that he wasn't aware of how or what to serve. Lorgar had always been aware that there were gods in existence. Even a being as mighty as a Primarch is but a worm. Lorgar had always had this knowledge with him, unlike a lot of the other Primarchs. For all his power, Lorgar realized he was just a servant of incomprehensible things and that his power just was a responsibility to serve that much more. When that "incomphrehensible thing" were the gods of the Old Faith of Colchis, he was a high priest, when it was the Emperor, he burned his world clean for the sake of this thing, and when it went back to the Old Faith, well... There's a low self-esteem somewhere in there; a need to prostrate himself before something greater; a need to gain the acceptance of something greater than him. It's a lack of self-confidence that drove Lorgar to rely on the Emperor for his sense of self-worth. By aggrandizing the Emperor, he was, in a sense, building himself up as a son of this mighty being. Thus, when censured by the Emperor, the results were so incredibly disastrous. (It didn't help, of course, that he spent his childhood as a Chaos worshipper and was probably corrupted by that to begin with.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrionus1 Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 Considering the emperor's reaction to the word bearer's "failure" ...I must admit to some confusion in the rapid acceptance of Emperor worship post throne internment. The Emperors feelings in regards to religion were not exactly secret, so how did the people who called themselves his followers justify moving from devotion to an ideal to worship of the creator of that ideal. When we realize that the ideal of the emperor included "freedom" from worshiping gods... it seems pretty bizarre. Not that i don't like the "worship the emperor" fluff, with all its powers and crazy inquisition stuff. lastly I believe it is inaccurate to assume that every person who has faith is unintelligent, or suffering from low self-esteem, or delusional etc etc. Thus I think it is a mistake to assume Lorgar was weakened or lessened by his faith. As I read this story, faith and the removal/felt betrayal of it was not the inherent weakness within Lorgar that led to his corruption. It was pride. His pride led to his bruised ego and openness corruption. Humility would have led to reception of correction and positive (though painful) change for Lorgar and his chapter. That said ...the Emperor's dealing with Lorgar wasn't exactly a genius PR move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 Considering the emperor's reaction to the word bearer's "failure" ...I must admit to some confusion in the rapid acceptance of Emperor worship post throne internment. The Emperors feelings in regards to religion were not exactly secret, so how did the people who called themselves his followers justify moving from devotion to an ideal to worship of the creator of that ideal. When we realize that the ideal of the emperor included "freedom" from worshiping gods... it seems pretty bizarre. The Lectitio Divinitatus is the key to that dilemma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 I believe it is inaccurate to assume that every person who has faith is unintelligent, or suffering from low self-esteem, or delusional etc etc. Thus I think it is a mistake to assume Lorgar was weakened or lessened by his faith... Whoa there. :P The last thing I would ever want to get into on the Internet is a discussion of everyone's faith. I was referring to Lorgar, very, very specifically Lorgar. No one else. Just Lorgar, a fictional character, who is far easier to analyze than a real person. ;) In Lorgar's case, I do think that he and the legion were reduced by their dependence on the Emperor. The other Legions had a dedication to Imperial truth. It made the universe very cut-and-dried for them, easy to understand when moral quandaries (say, over killing people) arose. In the Lorgar and the Word Bearers' case, they didn't just rely on the Emperor for orders, they relied on him to establish their own esteem. i.e. When they thought the Emperor was pleased with them, they were pleased with themselves. In Lorgar's case, it was always a need for acceptance and validation from something that was greater than him. This, is precisely what Imperial Truth could never offer him. In the Emperor's godless universe, Lorgar would have felt very alone, so he always placed himself below (though, just below) higher powers, either real ones or one he co-opted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrionus1 Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 I believe it is inaccurate to assume that every person who has faith is unintelligent, or suffering from low self-esteem, or delusional etc etc. Thus I think it is a mistake to assume Lorgar was weakened or lessened by his faith... Whoa there. :cuss The last thing I would ever want to get into on the Internet is a discussion of everyone's faith. I was referring to Lorgar, very, very specifically Lorgar. No one else. Just Lorgar, a fictional character, who is far easier to analyze than a real person. :D lol i didn't take offense =) Or take it that way, my apologies for poor communication. Actually really enjoying this conversation =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 Ha! OK, no problem. It's just, y'know, people gotta be careful around certain topics, or a friendly board of brothers and sisters quickly turns sour. Yeah, though: the discussion of Lorgar, his faith, his corruption and why it seemed to manifest only in him and not the other Primarchs is super-interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 Ha! OK, no problem. It's just, y'know, people gotta be careful around certain topics, or a friendly board of brothers and sisters quickly turns sour. Yeah, though: the discussion of Lorgar, his faith, his corruption and why it seemed to manifest only in him and not the other Primarchs is super-interesting. I would posit that it's much easier to instill belief in someone who's actually looking for something to believe in that it is to convince someone to believe who was never looking in the first place. Convincing Horus to turn was a much more complicated sell than it was for Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 Considering the emperor's reaction to the word bearer's "failure" ...I must admit to some confusion in the rapid acceptance of Emperor worship post throne internment. I don´t really know how long it took for the Imperium as a whole to start worshipping the Emperor as a god, but there are two points to consider here IMO: 1) The fact that Demons, Gods and other unnatural beings have proven to exist and the trauma the direct confrontation with such beings had created on many millions of Imperial citizens, who would desperately search for "divine" assistance. 2)Do not unerstimate the power of religion as a cohesive force. With the Emperor almost dead, the ideals of the Great Crusade utterly destroyed and half of the mighty Astartes Legions turned traitor, the newfound godhood of the Emperor turned Him into a common symbol of unity for the loyal citizens of the Imperium. Note that most of the Astartes do not believe in Him as a god, probably because they still remember, via their Primarchs and traditions, the origins of Imperial religion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214120-word-bearers-and-their-faith/#findComment-2587998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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