Wounding against Leadership...

[Hellios]

Ok so I have a weapon that uses it strength against the targets Leadership (a few of these exist but the DE get a load)... So lets say I'm using a S10 one against a Space Marine... I roll to wound and need the same result as I would if I was trying to wound a T8 creature with a S10 gun... Now my question is if not stated otherwise would I still use the models T for working out ID?

[Tanhausen]

What's the wording of the weapon?

 

For example, if it says "treat the enemy LD as T", then you need S18 to ID a MEQ (you deserve it for xenos traitor scum <_<)

[bystrom]

If its the same as the neural gauntlet, or ambiguous, I would use the Witchhunters FAQ as precedent:

 

Q. Can a Neural Shredder cause instant death?

A. Yes, but only when the weapon’s Strength of 8

is double or more the target’s Ld value (Ld 4 or

less).

[Hellios]

What's the wording of the weapon?

 

For example, if it says "treat the enemy LD as T", then you need S18 to ID a MEQ (you deserve it for xenos traitor scum :lol:)

 

 

If its the same as the neural gauntlet, or ambiguous, I would use the Witchhunters FAQ as precedent:

 

Q. Can a Neural Shredder cause instant death?

A. Yes, but only when the weapon’s Strength of 8

is double or more the target’s Ld value (Ld 4 or

less).

 

Cool thanks guys I'll compare the wording of the Neural Shredder to the DE weapons.

[greatcrusade08]

the more ambiguous question would be do you use majority leadership as you would majority toughness or would you allow them to use the sergeants leadership of 9

 

edit: the neural shredder question came up against orks, they had Ld10 due to unit numbers.

[ShinyRhino]

Pretty sure you use majority Ld values, as it's a test against a stat, just like S versus T. Pretty common these days for a pair of Psyker Battle Squads to slam a unit's Ld down to 4, and then hit them with the Assassin's Neural Shredder for instakilling fun.

[thade]

I don't know, Shiny; Leadership is sort of the exception to the Statline in that you use the highest available instead of the majority for Leadership tests. Then again, when you make Str/Init/whatever tests those are per model anyway, aren't they?

 

This needs an FAQ. =\

[stinkenheim]

I would assume that you would roll to wound against the majority value.

Much the same as if you had a squad of marines led by someone on a bike. You wouldn't expect all to-wound rolls to be made against T5 simply becuase he is tougher than the squad.

Obviously if they had an ability that allowed certain models to be picked out (e.g tellion's special rule or vindicares) then you would roll against the Ld value of that specific model.

[Grey Mage]

In normal shooting you use the majority toughness or the highest if there is no majority, unless the rules for the DE weaponry say otherwise then youd follow those rules, simply using their LD as the toughness value.

[thade]

In normal shooting you use the majority toughness or the highest if there is no majority, unless the rules for the DE weaponry say otherwise then youd follow those rules, simply using their LD as the toughness value.

That does seem clear enough, I suppose. Still a bit ambiguous for my tastes.

[BearersOfSalvation]

the more ambiguous question would be do you use majority leadership as you would majority toughness or would you allow them to use the sergeants leadership of 9

 

P8 of the rulebook explains that you can use the highest LD in the squad for a leadership test, but this isn't a leadership test, so you don't get to use the highest. If you're expecting to see a lot of 'wound vs LD' weapons, then it might be worthwhile to take one of the SCs that gives your whole army LD10.

[Algesan]

the more ambiguous question would be do you use majority leadership as you would majority toughness or would you allow them to use the sergeants leadership of 9

 

P8 of the rulebook explains that you can use the highest LD in the squad for a leadership test, but this isn't a leadership test, so you don't get to use the highest. If you're expecting to see a lot of 'wound vs LD' weapons, then it might be worthwhile to take one of the SCs that gives your whole army LD10.

 

My first thought, but the problem with that is that for the SoB with BoSL, it is only vs Morale and Pinning tests and with the BT Rites, it is only vs Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests. I don't think it would apply unless the wording is different elsewhere because as you say, this isn't a Ld test of some sort.

[trefenwyd]

Highly concur with need for FAQ. My initial take was that you would use the sergeant's LD value. This is more in line with fluff and RAI, and perhaps RAW, depending on how you read it. A T5 IC leading a unit does not in any way, shape, or form increase the T of the squad, and to determine "wounding", you use majority T (in the case of 9 marines with a sergeant or IC, this is thus 4). In terms of LD, the sergeant/IC IS affecting the LD of the squad - as long as they are attached to the squad, their presence inspires the men to greater heights, blah blah blah [insert fluff reason here]. BRB page 8 specifically states "if a unit includes models with different leadership values. always use the one with the higher LD value." This sentence is a stand alone paragraph under "Leadership Tests". The "dilemma" is whether that sentence applies universally or only to leadership tests. The BRB talks about using majority T in the "wounding" section, and the majority WS in the "close combat to-hit" section. Are those rules applied universally? - yes. GW simply put how to treat units with different leadership values under the "leadership test" section because that's where it normally applies, not where it uniquely applies - thus it is correct using RAW to use the highest LD in the squad. The problem is that folks are merely substituting LD for T and then applying the "to wound" rules (and using majority applies). Since we're talking LD though, we should first use the "highest applies" and then substitue that for squad T.

[Grey Mage]

However, if you want to go into the fluff, one would note that someone say "Forward! Death to the Xenos SCUM!" loudly in your ear does noting to keep your soul from being ripped from your body, or the nerves in your brain cavity from being overloaded with stimulus.

 

And it would appear, as its talking about leadership tests, that that rule applies to leadership tests. This isnt a leadership test any more than trying to wound someone with a bolter is a toughness test.

[Hellios]

As far as I'm concerned you wound on the majority leadership... like you would with toughness.

 

"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that as a strength value of double its toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty"

 

Now weapons in the DE codex may vary but one has a standard weapon profile with this attached...

 

"Roll against the enemy's leadership instead of their Toughness."

 

So what I was asking is that although Leadership is used for wounding instead of Toughness... RAW Toughness is still used for Instant Death? Although we have the FAQ for the Neural Shredder that RAI intends for Leadership to be used for instant death with such weapons?

[trefenwyd]

I still don't understand how you can argue against:

 

"if a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the higher LD value."

 

Are we unclear about the definition of "always"? We may have to agree to disagree on this one...

[Frosty the Pyro]

I still don't understand how you can argue against:

 

"if a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the higher LD value."

 

Are we unclear about the definition of "always"? We may have to agree to disagree on this one...

Because that is only in refernce to leadership tests. And wounding is NOT a leadership test.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Are we unclear about the definition of "always"? We may have to agree to disagree on this one...

 

Are we unclear about the definition of 'leadership test', and the fact that rolling to wound against LD is not a 'leadership test'?

[Algesan]

I still don't understand how you can argue against:

 

"if a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the higher LD value."

 

Are we unclear about the definition of "always"? We may have to agree to disagree on this one...

 

As said, that refers to leadership tests. This is more a case of codex trumps core rules and assuming the quotes are correct from the codex, you would go to the wounding rules and insert "leadership" everywhere they say "toughness".

 

I'm going to assume the DE have leadership reducing abilities, otherwise the weapons would be a bit limp IMO and there are several codexes that have rules where another model in another unit can provide leadership for the affected unit. Again, as written only for leadership tests, but if we apply that like you are proposing, then the DE could be in situations where they always face Ld 9-10 armies, even if they can force -100 to leadership (unless it applied army wide against the opponent).

[Hellios]

I'm going to assume the DE have leadership reducing abilities, otherwise the weapons would be a bit limp IMO and there are several codexes that have rules where another model in another unit can provide leadership for the affected unit. Again, as written only for leadership tests, but if we apply that like you are proposing, then the DE could be in situations where they always face Ld 9-10 armies, even if they can force -100 to leadership (unless it applied army wide against the opponent).

 

If things are S10... AP2 even if you are ld10 it is 50/50... I wouldn't call that limp...

[Algesan]

I'm going to assume the DE have leadership reducing abilities, otherwise the weapons would be a bit limp IMO and there are several codexes that have rules where another model in another unit can provide leadership for the affected unit. Again, as written only for leadership tests, but if we apply that like you are proposing, then the DE could be in situations where they always face Ld 9-10 armies, even if they can force -100 to leadership (unless it applied army wide against the opponent).

 

If things are S10... AP2 even if you are ld10 it is 50/50... I wouldn't call that limp...

 

I'm assuming they are some kind of special or heavy weapon (H bolter, H flamer, Melta, Multi-Melta, etc.), which usually have at least a 3+ against most MEQ models and 2+ against others, so 50/50 isn't so hot. After all, a plain bolter gets a 4+ vs MEQ. The difference between scoring an extra wound or two for every 6 hits or part of the reason why a H flamer costs twice as much as a flamer.

 

I might be wrong, haven't seen the DE codex on them yet.

[Hellios]

I'm going to assume the DE have leadership reducing abilities, otherwise the weapons would be a bit limp IMO and there are several codexes that have rules where another model in another unit can provide leadership for the affected unit. Again, as written only for leadership tests, but if we apply that like you are proposing, then the DE could be in situations where they always face Ld 9-10 armies, even if they can force -100 to leadership (unless it applied army wide against the opponent).

 

If things are S10... AP2 even if you are ld10 it is 50/50... I wouldn't call that limp...

 

I'm assuming they are some kind of special or heavy weapon (H bolter, H flamer, Melta, Multi-Melta, etc.), which usually have at least a 3+ against most MEQ models and 2+ against others, so 50/50 isn't so hot. After all, a plain bolter gets a 4+ vs MEQ. The difference between scoring an extra wound or two for every 6 hits or part of the reason why a H flamer costs twice as much as a flamer.

 

I might be wrong, haven't seen the DE codex on them yet.

 

 

Yes but as has been said most MEQ are ld8... meaning I need what 2's... and since I can't wound on a 1 I think that is pretty good... and heavy flamers and H bolters don't ignore a 2+ save...

 

Oh and good luck killing a Wraithlord with a normal bolter... no hellfire rounds for you ;)

[Algesan]

I'm going to assume the DE have leadership reducing abilities, otherwise the weapons would be a bit limp IMO and there are several codexes that have rules where another model in another unit can provide leadership for the affected unit. Again, as written only for leadership tests, but if we apply that like you are proposing, then the DE could be in situations where they always face Ld 9-10 armies, even if they can force -100 to leadership (unless it applied army wide against the opponent).

 

If things are S10... AP2 even if you are ld10 it is 50/50... I wouldn't call that limp...

 

I'm assuming they are some kind of special or heavy weapon (H bolter, H flamer, Melta, Multi-Melta, etc.), which usually have at least a 3+ against most MEQ models and 2+ against others, so 50/50 isn't so hot. After all, a plain bolter gets a 4+ vs MEQ. The difference between scoring an extra wound or two for every 6 hits or part of the reason why a H flamer costs twice as much as a flamer.

 

I might be wrong, haven't seen the DE codex on them yet.

 

 

Yes but as has been said most MEQ are ld8... meaning I need what 2's... and since I can't wound on a 1 I think that is pretty good... and heavy flamers and H bolters don't ignore a 2+ save...

 

Oh and good luck killing a Wraithlord with a normal bolter... no hellfire rounds for you :P

 

Oh, sorry, I was referring to if you could use alternate Ld to test as toughness. BT and SoB both have ways to spread Ld 10 around real generously for morale, leadership and pinning tests, I'm sure other armies might too. If that applied against these weapons, then it would all be 4+ to wound instead of 3+ or 2+.

[Grey Mage]

Its on a case by case basis- but a general rule of thumb is this: If it literally modifies the LD value then its used for wounding, if its using someone elses for a morale/LD check then it very much is not.

 

BoSL is in the very much not category.

[Algesan]

Its on a case by case basis- but a general rule of thumb is this: If it literally modifies the LD value then its used for wounding, if its using someone elses for a morale/LD check then it very much is not.

 

BoSL is in the very much not category.

 

Agreed, the same as Rites of Battle.