WYSIWYG Question

[Lord Mordred]

Greetings!

 

While I'm not new to assembling and painting W40k models I'm really a n00b into the game itself, and there's a particular point that give me and my game buddy problems:

 

WYSIWYG - any change in wargear should be made into the model, that I got, but what about the regular wargear, described in the Codex, all models have that regardless of showing it off?

 

I mean, my SM have bolters, but also count with the chainsword described on the wargear, or if I want them to have I must show it?

 

I think I must make even basic wargear shown, but I'd be more confortable with a plain yes/no answer from veterans!

 

thanks

[Tanhausen]

You are supposed to show all the wargear.

[Valerian]

You are supposed to show all the wargear.

 

No you are not. If it is something in their basic unit profile (Bolt Guns, Bolt Pistols, and CCW, Frang and Krak Grenades for all Grey Hunters, for example), then you don't have to model it . You only need to explitly model those things that are "different", such as options (i.e. a Plasma Pistol, Wolf Standard, Power Fist, or Special Weapons) all need to be modeled as they don't come standard.

 

Valerian

[Tanhausen]

If a tactical marine carries grenades... and you have them in the sprue...

 

I've seen (not done) in a tournament something along the lines "your marines don't have the grenades on the model, hence are not WYSIWYG"... you can imagine how that ended.

 

From a friendly game point of view, sure, no need. But if you're building the model, you might as well just glue all the stuff provided :mellow:

 

However, if the BRB states otherwise, I'll stand corrected :mellow:

[bystrom]

Such interpretations are I believe up to each tournament. The BBB states:

Character models in particluar tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their Codex. The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing.

That is such equipment (referring to options, that is when you can pick and choose alternatively can exchange standard wargear for something else), must be visually represented on the model. In a 10-man tactical squad, the sergeant, one special weapons marine and one heavy weapons marine get options. Hence, their options need to be visually represented (for example, a flamer needs to be shown on the special weapons marine if he's equipped with one). Also note that since you can't actually do anything about frag and krak grenades, these aren't really needed on the model, (not to mention you don't get enough grenades to actually model them on every marine). Of course, you need to model your tactical marines in such a fashion that its clear that they're tactical marines and not for example look exactly like your scouts.

[greatcrusade08]

ive probably got it wrong, but i was surfing the rule book and the WYSIWYG rule only applied to character models....

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

If its a weapon option or a standard or something, show it. If it comes with them you don't need to. For example, you don't show the bolt pistol, chainsword, and bolter on the grey hunters, but you do show their wolf standard.

[Grey Mage]

If a tactical marine carries grenades... and you have them in the sprue...

 

I've seen (not done) in a tournament something along the lines "your marines don't have the grenades on the model, hence are not WYSIWYG"... you can imagine how that ended.

 

From a friendly game point of view, sure, no need. But if you're building the model, you might as well just glue all the stuff provided :)

 

However, if the BRB states otherwise, I'll stand corrected :P

If it was C:SM and they actually stated that no grenades were present because they werent modeled then your tournament was a farce.

 

Thats not how its done in 5th edition.

[bystrom]

ive probably got it wrong, but i was surfing the rule book and the WYSIWYG rule only applied to character models....

It is under the character section yes, but the quote's written such that it can include more than that: "The rule is that..." refers to the previous sentence, which talks of "what weapons and wargear they can use" where they refer to "Character models in particular" where particular indicates that it just isn't character models but more than that. I can't find anything on what this particular is referring to though.

[thade]

If it was C:SM and they actually stated that no grenades were present because they werent modeled then your tournament was a farce.

 

Thats not how its done in 5th edition.

^This.

 

As long as your models are 50% or more GW plastic and are easily distinguished as what they are supposed to be (ie not easy to confuse a 'tac marine' for an 'assault marine') they are tournie legal at any tournie I've ever heard of.

 

WYSIWYG is ambiguous and I think it's supposed to be; it's like a sidebar entry on the Character page. I bet when they release 6th edition, we'll see a footnote to "The Most Important Rule" everywhere...which anybody that bars your models because "grenades aren't modeled" had best remember. =P

[Lord Mordred]

Whoa, I hit a sensitive spot with that question :lol:

 

so the lessons learned were:

 

Standard wargear not necessarily must be on the model, but if you want ot avoid flame wars and getting hit on the face with a +2 Modelcase of Smiting you put them in the model

 

Options should always be on the model <-no prolbems there

 

Correct?

[bystrom]

More like showing clearly what options your models have leads to no problems. Some people might dislike that you're using counts-as while others find it acceptable, either through fluff reason or you're proxy-testing or you thought it was really cool-looking.

 

Searching for WYSIWYG in the title gives a lot of hits, some I'm linking: how far does it go?, Modelling too much: A slight WYSIWYG violation, WYSIWYG.. what if i see a shoebox?, First game goes badly..

[Grey Mage]

The basic equipment like grenades et all is nit-picky, and a leftover from previous editions where you did have to buy them. These days that only applies to black templars and a few xenos units here and there- thus, you dont.

 

Some people cant let the old editions go though.

[Algesan]

Some people cant let the old editions go though.

 

Heh, Amen to that one. A Big Amen.

 

I'm hopeful that that what does look like a trend from over anal retentiveness about WYSIWYG calms back down to a much more reasonable rule about being clearly distinguishable for counts as.

[Commander Sasha]

If you are just starting out in your list-building career, you're going to be changing your list a lot over the next few months, so expect to have to re-model quite a bit.

Based on that, ask for your opponents blessing to rely on representation for now, with a few golden rules:

1) Anything above a basic unmodified trooper or vehicle should be clearly identifiable. For a Tactical squad this means 7 regulars, 1 special, 1 heavy, and 1 Sergeant.

2) Your army list is a very important piece of paper for both of you: the slightest variation in your army from WYSIWIG means you have a duty to present a clear, legible list of what is what. (This also applies to fully WYSIWIG armies with invisible options, like Librarian's choice of powers etc.)

3) Proxies should be the right size, vehicles should have guns and doors in the right places, etc. Line of sight is relevant to points values.

4) Whilst playing a proxy army, you owe it to your opponent to remind him mid-game of variations, "Don't forget, those are Hammernators, not Tactical Termies". If you have multiple vehicles, a sticker that says "Predator, Autocannon, HB sponsons" on the roof does the job nicely!

 

My new army is a totally proxy army: a 40K Skaven Horde from WHFB, using the Tyranid Codex. I have put a lot of work into opponent-friendly proxy design, and have not upset or surprised anyone in 10 months.

I have also helped my son and 6 12yr old friends develop armies on pocket money budgets, so have seen proxies galore, including Lego and a Monolith made in school pottery class!

 

Proxies won't be allowed in tournaments, but if you're a list juggler like me, and too slow a modeller (or too poor!), they let you experiment. It took 3 years before my marine army was complete, ie I have all the variants that I want to create my favourite 1,750point lists entirely WYSIWIG.

 

Accepting your proxies is an act of generosity by your opponent; don't forget that he is indulging you, so make the effort back. I have been lucky enough to play against some very well painted and modelled armies with my half-built half-painted tat; as my army gets better, I expect the same respect that I gave on the way up! That being said, a non-tournament player who won't indulge a new player with a few proxies has forgotten that he was there once too!

[Hellios]

Accepting your proxies is an act of generosity by your opponent; don't forget that he is indulging you, so make the effort back. I have been lucky enough to play against some very well painted and modelled armies with my half-built half-painted tat; as my army gets better, I expect the same respect that I gave on the way up! That being said, a non-tournament player who won't indulge a new player with a few proxies has forgotten that he was there once too!

 

I was never there! I don't know what you mean about Mephiston the Lord of Death leading a squad of Dark Angel scouts! It never happened!

 

But as people have said WYSIWYG of additional equipment on a model that obviously is what it is is... should be fine... although you get some weird people who freak out over everything... the only major issue is counts as which really muddies the waters...

[Algesan]

If you are just starting out in your list-building career, you're going to be changing your list a lot over the next few months, so expect to have to re-model quite a bit.

Based on that, ask for your opponents blessing to rely on representation for now, with a few golden rules:

1) Anything above a basic unmodified trooper or vehicle should be clearly identifiable. For a Tactical squad this means 7 regulars, 1 special, 1 heavy, and 1 Sergeant.

2) Your army list is a very important piece of paper for both of you: the slightest variation in your army from WYSIWIG means you have a duty to present a clear, legible list of what is what. (This also applies to fully WYSIWIG armies with invisible options, like Librarian's choice of powers etc.)

3) Proxies should be the right size, vehicles should have guns and doors in the right places, etc. Line of sight is relevant to points values.

4) Whilst playing a proxy army, you owe it to your opponent to remind him mid-game of variations, "Don't forget, those are Hammernators, not Tactical Termies". If you have multiple vehicles, a sticker that says "Predator, Autocannon, HB sponsons" on the roof does the job nicely!

 

Heh, lists can be built like that easily enough. I had some fun with fat popsicle sticks and foamboard bases, marked with unit and weapon designations. Not as pretty, but as "counters" that fit the proper dimensional requirements and are easily discernible as to unit and equipment. Not a problem for the gaming hobby, one for the modeling hobby though.

 

The biggest issue was actually the aesthetic one from habit, because it was actually easier to see the "HF" and "MM" on the stick than having to lean over to see if it was a heavy flamer or multimelta,

 

I'm going to have to post a picture of my "counts as" filler Rhinos one day. Couple of empty cigarette box packs, heavy paper and some foam board, with optional foam board and cardboard turrets. They look like crap, but are dimensionally correct and they do real well for Rhinos, Immolators and Exorcists. Would probably do just as well for a Razorback or Whirlwind, but I'd need a bigger turret to do a Predator as well as some cutting for side mounts if desired.

 

Also cut down on my 5 year old worrying about if Daddy would remember to bring his tanks back home, but it cost me one of mine when I got the "Please Daddy, can I have one of your special tanks you built?" I made him say "may I have"...