Daemons...

[TheMouth]

This may be off topic...but this is a two part-er...

 

1. What has brought Daemons back in popularity?

 

2. How do you beat them? Castle up? Counter Deep Strike?

 

Thank you!

 

:)

[Zeller]

Link

 

Plastic models have had a huge impact on the number of demon players. The army is not retardedly expensive like it was when it was metal.

 

Counter deep strike means nothing against an army of deep strikers. You will be enveloped and destroyed. Castling is alright. Spreading out is okay as well so long as both sides of your army can rush to support the other if need be quickly.

 

If you can muster enough firepower to kill any squad that lands then you're golden. Don't let the demonettes charge you and know your ranges for fiends. Also, dreadnoughts are great for killing basic troops since they can't harm the armor value. For bigger units TH/SS terminators will kill monstrous creatures and the soulgrinders.

[BigBaals]

The new Daemon Prince model is outstanding. Helps that Pink Horrors and Daemonettes are plastic also! Could be a desire to play something that's the farthest from marines that you can get, since it seems like roughly half of all players are Marines. They are also fun to paint! I've picked up a box of Daemonettes, Pink Horrors, and Seekers in the last few months for something different. After 5k+ points of Angels, I need a break from painting Marines from time to time. That's just me though.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SM in general require special tactics to beat with daemons.

[Spacefrisian]

SM in general require special tactics to beat with daemons.

 

It hardly requires any special tactic if you ask me. Bolters will most likely demolish 70% of any Daemon army.

[Hellios]

SM in general require special tactics to beat with daemons.

 

It hardly requires any special tactic if you ask me. Bolters will most likely demolish 70% of any Daemon army.

 

This is true... When I've used daemons what has cost people the most in terms of models is fearing my blood letters charge and so charging me so that I don't get furious charge... but when people stop and think in most cases they should double tap because they should kill more models that way and so less marines should die when I charge...

 

Then you have soul grinders... which you can dedicate your AT weapons at since they lack other vehicles which just leaves... Big to medium monster that can be killed by mass bolterfire should you have spare bolters... or I find plasma spam to be effective (for wounding... I realise they get invulnerable saves...), seriously rapid fire plasma into that greater/daemon or daemon prince and watch it go down...

 

Oh and as for the guy who said dreads are the way... yes they are good... however I've tied up important dreads with a cheap unit of horrors... yay 4++ and both Daemonettes and Bloodletters who have taken the magic sword upgrade for the squad leader can take dreads out in combat.

[Morticon]

Multi-tourney winning champion here is a Daemon player. Plays an 18 fiend (3x6) list. Its attrocious. So, so, so tough.

 

Bolters just wont cut it. They help- yes...but then you get charged at higher init. its a really tough call.

 

My advice is to try make sure you're in DT, and castle up heavily and then play shooty counter - or shooty shooty. Let the daemons come to you, make their DT checks and get to shoot, and hit before them.

 

Only charge if youre striking before them!! And then only if you're gonna wipe em out.

[bulley]

I just pld vs demons with my mech. I kept moving, my terms took out 4 units in kp though.

 

I kept moving, using HB AC and hurricane bolters to drop them with rate of fire.

 

Reason for popularity is varied, but plastic models that look great that also can be used for warhammer fantasy as well !!! Great value and really quirky army to use.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Bolters... :P

 

So where do you find these daemon killing bolters?

 

0b :P

[breng77]

Some anti-daemon thoughts.

 

1.) IF you want to run Cheese, go with an Inquisitor +mystics+ some shooty unit nearby.

 

2.) Dreads can help.

 

3.) Against non Slanesh Cover is your friend as most Daemons have no Grenades.

 

4.) Against Fiends, Ruins are your Friends, beasts cannot climb ruins.

 

5.) You can try to reserve your army as then they come in against nothing (especially if you take second turn)

 

6.) You most often want turn 2 against Daemons so you don't lose a round of Shooting.

 

7.) If you go first and feel you can spread out enough to deny the Daemons a safe landing zone this can hurt them. Alot. Especially with Mech Blood angels, if you force them into a corner you can run away with fast vehicles.

[bulley]

Bolters... :P

 

So where do you find these daemon killing bolters?

 

0b :P

 

 

Lol just talking about sheer rate of fire. I found that i could put in more shots than they could rather than try and enter their world of cc. Forcing as many saves on them seemed to whittle down the squads.

 

They get the invulnerable anyway so bolters feel as effective as a AC or HB lol

[Midnightmare]

Having not played Daemons, I would say loads of TLAC??? Baal's and Razors everywhere, even a dread to act as a distraction, what about spread out as opposed to castle up and mow them down in the crossfire when they arrive.

[bulley]

I pld them last thurs w/ my standard 1500 list.

 

My assault terms took down 4 units (but gave up their 3 KP's), and my razor spam took down another 3 or 4. But could have quite easily taken down more if they put their back into it a bit more.

 

AC's are great (easy to wound) and w/ 4 TL shots I found on average I was forcing more than 2 saves per AC on him. HB's much the same. The hurricane bolters off my LR took of about 3 wounds from a lord of change!

 

I think part comes down to missions as well.

 

I was in a KP mission and did not want to let my shiney 2 KP razor/ras get near the assaulty people. In a objective mission, I'd pick and move to get around the objectives I want and probably then just sit down and lay fire into them.

 

One thing I felt was definatly deploying helped my cause.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

First what I say here is based on the assumption you are playing a competitive Gamer with a good list. The thing about bolters is if you are rapid firing then that means your unit is probably going to be in assault range the following turn. If you are in a position where you have the weight of numbers then it's probably okay, otherwise you might simply be trading a squad of Marines for a pack of daemons, which might not be a good trade. If it's a huge pack of Bloodletters then maybe you dont really have a choice. You've got to put a serious dent in before they hit your line.

 

I remember my last tournament I brought my Khorne daemons. The final match was for first place and I was pitted against a very shooty SW list. He couldn't beat me in close combat so the game came down to whether or not I could kill more of his units in my assault phases than he could kill of mine in his shooting phases. My waves came in backwards so he started off with the advantage since I decided to wait for my heavy hitters to show up before I charged into his line. I was really amazed at how much firepower the SW army could laydown - it was amazing. By the end of the game it was very close and I ended up winning by a single killpoint - it was just that close. I had to charge headlong into the jaws of death and take it on the chin. My opponent was pretty shrewd and kept his units all spread out across his DZ so that I couldn't multi charge his units, so it was always one of my units versus his each assault phase while he could torrent my units during his shooting phases. I was able to slowly corral his army into a corner and finally hit them all at once after breaking through his bubble wrap. The losses in terms of wounds taken from his shooting were horrendous but it worked out in my favor the last turn of the game. Like I said it was a close one and those bolters he was packing in his Grey Hunter squads were very painful so yes the bolter is good when there are lots of them. So I think actually it's a good strategy versus daemons but the typical armies you see now for Blood Angels just don't seem to have lots of units sporting bolters and that's the main reason why I feel a bit dubious about this strategy (lots of bolters in general) versus daemons.

 

I think the most popular daemon lists tend to run lots of fiends and Tzneetch units such as Horrors and Flamers plus Tzneetch Heralds mounted on chariots. Lots of withering shooting plus highly mobile high initiative assault units with lots of attacks. The Flamers and Heralds are also very mobile as well. Versus this type of daemon army we have our own mobility to counter theirs (Lucifer patterned chassis and jump packs). The Tzneetch daemons will fold in assault so you need to be able to run them down. The Fiends it's better to torrent with your guns.

 

Another fairly popular daemon army is Nurgle based featuring the Tallyman. You'd be surprised how quickly they can bump up the tally then they are death incarnate in close combat. These lists you tend to see one or two GUOs, Nurgle daemon princes, Plague Bearers and lots of Nurglings. The Nurglings can be quite annoying since you can't insta gib them (Eternal Warrior). The daemon princes are really bad news, especially when they have wings. Mech BA should matchup well versus Tallyman armies since we are much faster and can torrent to death the big bad meanies. DoA style armies you have to hit hard and fast clearing out whole units on the charge. Once the daemons start wounding on 4+ and ignoring armor saves it gets really hairy - you simply have to be able to overwhelm them in close combat.

 

Then there is the hated Fatecrusher armies. These are really bad news as the Crushers can easily sweep aside Marine units. I think here again our speed is our biggest advantage. You have to keep the Crushers at arm's length. This is to me the toughest matchup for Blood Angels. We don't have access to Null Zone unfortunately so it's all about pure weight of numbers. It's hard to both play the keep away game and shoot the tar out of them at the same time unless you specifically design your list to do so which is typically not the case.

 

0b

[Dingareth]

Actually, I've had good luck against Fate Crusher with Mech Angels. Assault Cannons bring down Mr. Weaver, and Furiosos are fantastic at taking down (and holding up) Blood Crushers. If there's one thing that Demons hate more than tanks, it's fast tanks- they give us such a huge advantage.

[bushman101]

I played against a Demon army last week. I lost, but here's some advice that helped me keep it close.

 

* spread out your non-DSing stuff. If you can, put the rear armor of your vehicles close to the table edge so the Demons don't get access to it.

*remember we get to re-roll our DS-ing stuff. If the Demon army has nothing on the table yet, try to keep your stuff off as well.

*I highly recommend a Reclusiarch. I took one with a Honor Guard with a Chapter Banner and killed a Demon Prince and almost killed a 2nd.

* I recommend things with multi-meltas to take out Greater Demons. (I took a stock Dreadnaught and a Attack Bike with the Melta upgrade)

 

 

hope it helps

[breng77]

...put the rear armor of your vehicles close to the table edge so the Demons don't get access to it.

 

not sure about this one. Maybe if you are facing shooty daemons, against a mostly CC army armor facing does not matter as in CC you always hit the rear armor.

[Taz]

*remember we get to re-roll our DS-ing stuff. If the Demon army has nothing on the table yet, try to keep your stuff off as well.

 

Actualy DoA only lets you reroll failed reserve rolls.

[SamaNagol]

Assault Cannons on vehicles moving 12" > Daemons

 

Kill anything that can open up or stop your vehicles first, namely flamers and soulgrinders or Tzeentch Princes. Then keep moving 12" a turn and pump S6 TL shots into the infantry until they are softened up enough to beat in combat

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A well built daemon army will have counters to mech. Blood Angels have a good advantage due to their speed. Daemons can be built that are fast and very shooty plus highly mobile assault units. Tzneetch mixed with Fiends immediately comes to mind. Daemons can have problems versus landraiders if they dont take the right tools. I play daemons a lot and have not had any major problems versus MEQ armies. I will say that the DoA style list can beat daemons in close combat due to the speed and Furious Charge. As Samanagol has noted one of the best strategies versus daemons is to soften them up then charge them.

 

0b :P

[SamaNagol]

The only thing I fear with my Razorback/Vindicator build is shooting. And the Daemons find it very difficult to get much shooting to bear against vehicles.

 

As I said, the Tzeentch daemons and the Soulgrinder pose a threat.

[Ozybonza]

For all the people who do something other than booring old mech spam, here's my BA vs Deamons tactics:

 

Casstle up with JPs and priests. Chances are he will try and surround you on the drop, units on each side. You should then be able to send all your squads in one direction, hopefully out of charge range of the other direction.

 

The end result is you getting the charge, facing down half his first wave, with all/most of your army. Hopefully, you can wipe all/most of them out before the rest of his first wave, or his entire second wave, comes in to support.

 

Also, flamers. Lots and lots of flamers.

[Zid]

Daemons are one of the easiest armies to face honestly.

 

First off, give them the first turn. Spread out and respond to where he drops; if he doesn't go first your entire first turn will be moving around and give him better options where to drop.

 

Secondly, each god has a specific strength and specific weakness; Tzeentch is great at shooting, have great invuns, but are weak in CC. Khorne is strong in CC, but slow and clunky. Nurgle is resiliant, slow, and really hard to kill. Slaneesh has bad saves, but is very fast.

 

Pretty much your target priority should be as follows:

1) Tzeentch GD's or DP's if your playing mech. if your playing heavy infantry, soul grinders, blood crushers, and bloodthirsters

2) Anything really punchy. Crushers and fiends normally

3) Everything else

 

An easy breakdown of each daemon and how to deal with em as BA is as follows:

Bloodthirster - shoot it. DO NOT get into assault, it will kill whatever you have easily

Deamon princes - Shoot the khorne/nurgle ones as they own in CC, assault tzeentch/slaneesh as they're a bit weaker. If they do not buy ironhide focus these down first as they will easily drop.

Fateweaver - Shoot him, assault him, and prey your foe has some bad rolls...

The named nurgle and khorne guy - shoot these. They go down under massed fire easily. The khorne named thirster is weaker than a normal thirster as hes far slower and buffs your army as well.

Bloodcrushers - shoot them and get the charge. If they charge you, your likely to lose quite a bit

Fiends - shoot them

Seekers/Screamers/Flamers/pretty much anything thats not the above or a troop - shoot/assault them

Daemonettes - shoot them, avoid CC if you can (they get 4 attacks each on the charge with rending)

Bloodletters - shoot them, get the charge. If you have FC you will win. If you don't, your going to lose a hefty amount of stuff

Plaguebearers - shoot them/assault them and prey... they're tough to take down

Horrors - assault them, they suck in CC

 

Thats not every unit in the dex, but a fare share. Honestly if you kill the big nastys you'll win the day. Land raiders are daemons worst enemies (only Bloodthirsters and Soulgrinders can reliably pop them), and mech in general they have a rough time with. Fatecrusher builds, however, are ALWAYS hard to beat. An army of rerollable saves is always painful to face!

[Crynn]

Daemons are one of the easiest armies to face honestly.

 

First off, give them the first turn. Spread out and respond to where he drops; if he doesn't go first your entire first turn will be moving around and give him better options where to drop.

 

Secondly, each god has a specific strength and specific weakness; Tzeentch is great at shooting, have great invuns, but are weak in CC. Khorne is strong in CC, but slow and clunky. Nurgle is resiliant, slow, and really hard to kill. Slaneesh has bad saves, but is very fast.

 

Pretty much your target priority should be as follows:

1) Tzeentch GD's or DP's if your playing mech. if your playing heavy infantry, soul grinders, blood crushers, and bloodthirsters

2) Anything really punchy. Crushers and fiends normally

3) Everything else

 

An easy breakdown of each daemon and how to deal with em as BA is as follows:

Bloodthirster - shoot it. DO NOT get into assault, it will kill whatever you have easily

Deamon princes - Shoot the khorne/nurgle ones as they own in CC, assault tzeentch/slaneesh as they're a bit weaker. If they do not buy ironhide focus these down first as they will easily drop.

Fateweaver - Shoot him, assault him, and prey your foe has some bad rolls...

The named nurgle and khorne guy - shoot these. They go down under massed fire easily. The khorne named thirster is weaker than a normal thirster as hes far slower and buffs your army as well.

Bloodcrushers - shoot them and get the charge. If they charge you, your likely to lose quite a bit

Fiends - shoot them

Seekers/Screamers/Flamers/pretty much anything thats not the above or a troop - shoot/assault them

Daemonettes - shoot them, avoid CC if you can (they get 4 attacks each on the charge with rending)

Bloodletters - shoot them, get the charge. If you have FC you will win. If you don't, your going to lose a hefty amount of stuff

Plaguebearers - shoot them/assault them and prey... they're tough to take down

Horrors - assault them, they suck in CC

 

Thats not every unit in the dex, but a fare share. Honestly if you kill the big nastys you'll win the day. Land raiders are daemons worst enemies (only Bloodthirsters and Soulgrinders can reliably pop them), and mech in general they have a rough time with. Fatecrusher builds, however, are ALWAYS hard to beat. An army of rerollable saves is always painful to face!

 

Said like someone who's never played a decent daemon player. If tooled correctly they are actually quite difficult to beat with BA's whos have many combat specialists that we pay high points for but cant beat many daemon units in CC. The biggest problem for most armies are fate crusher lists so I'll stick with them. Also a simple shoot this, assault this really doesnt help anyone but the most basic of player on the forum.

 

An easy breakdown of each daemon and how to deal with em as BA is as follows:

Bloodthirster - shoot it. DO NOT get into assault, it will kill whatever you have easily. Wow huge insight if you have TH//SS termies you can CC it and you'll win

Deamon princes - Shoot the khorne/nurgle ones as they own in CC, assault tzeentch/slaneesh as they're a bit weaker. If they do not buy ironhide focus these down first as they will easily drop. if they have iron hide a fate weaver they will not go down to small arms fire you will need high ap fire, if they have wings you may not get too many turns to be able to shoot them. They are all relatively good in CC the mark actually makes little difference slightly tougher one more attack one more str they will kill anything that isnt a dedicated assault unit.

Fateweaver - Shoot him, assault him, and prey your foe has some bad rolls... Praying for opponents bad luck isnt a tactic. he requires you on average to wound him 27 yes 27 f'ing imes to bring the bastard down! if the rest of his army is slow shoot him as he has to stay with them in order to recieve support and support them, if hes running fiends and princes you are better off trying to kill some of them before they reach you as even if you kill fateweaver its likely all you will have killed by the time they've hit your lines, even if you are mech BA's you can get cornered and locked if they know how to manouver properly.

The named nurgle and khorne guy - shoot these. They go down under massed fire easily. The khorne named thirster is weaker than a normal thirster as hes far slower and buffs your army as well. he is no weaker at all. he does buff your army but is generally used with fiends so that he strikes first with rerolls killing many more of your units so it doesnt matter so much if you have prefered enemy. If he isnt running high Int uits hes an idiot and well you should have an easy run. If he is running high int units he isnt a complete pushover

Bloodcrushers - shoot them and get the charge. If they charge you, your likely to lose quite a bit, even if charging be carefull with what u hit them with as they can be a pain with wound allocation and they might loose less in your initial strike than you think.

Fiends - shoot them. I feel safer already. You can also give them a nice furioso to deal with even with rending it is practically imperveous to them and will slowly eat away at the buggers

Seekers/Screamers/Flamers/pretty much anything thats not the above or a troop - shoot/assault them. You may want to CC these guys if you get the chance unless you are sure your shooting will wipe them out as even 1 when it gets close can cause huge dmg.

Daemonettes - shoot them, avoid CC if you can (they get 4 attacks each on the charge with rending) Again insert dread here. And thank the lord the werent smart enough to just take more fiends. Or they were being nice ;)

Bloodletters - shoot them, get the charge. If you have FC you will win. If you don't, your going to lose a hefty amount of stuff true true, again a dread is magic here also they have no assault grenades so rapid fire if you in cover even if you have fc available

Plaguebearers - shoot them/assault them and prey... they're tough to take down if you can spare the low ap weapons to shoot or cc these guys do so. it drastically decreases their amazing survivability and also helps you win combat by more making them take more fearless saves.

Horrors - assault them, they suck in CC, if you are mech and have an armoured wall just dont worry about them as they unless with a bolt cant hurt you.

 

A few additions to this very black and white way of looking at deamons.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree completely. Against a good daemon player there is no way it will ever be this easy. Daemons are bad matchup for Space Marines in general.

 

0b :D