multiple combats

[HJL]

something came up in a game yesterday, if a trygon multiple assaults 2 vehicles at the same time can ti hit them both?

 

i always thought that you had to allocate models against targets, not individual attacks. so basically could he attack with 3 attacks on each tank or would all 6 have to be on 1 tank?

 

does this also work on units too, so if i assault a squad with 2 hqs in and i can get them in b2b with a power fist serg or a nob with a klaw, can i attack 1 attack against each and attempt to kill them both?

 

can you let me know what the rules on this are and possible a page reference if you can find it? ive scoured the rule book on the toilet (my normal reading spot) and couldn't find it anywhere.

[Seahawk]

A trygon that assaults two vehicles at the same time has to be perfectly equidistant from both and must be able to touch both with its base when it gets there. This situation is so extremely rare I wonder how it got there in the first place, but anyhoo...

 

Yes, models with more than one attack that are in BTB with two different units can split their attacks as they wish.

 

Under multiple combats, under attacking, page 41

 

"- Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit. "

[thade]

Seahawk makes a good point; the set-up would have to be *perfect* for you to assault two vehicles with a single model, no matter how big.

 

You have to move the closest model in your unit to the closest model in the target unit using the shortest possible distance: in the case where you want to charge two vehicles with, say, a tactical squad, this isn't so bad...you just declare the assault on the vehicle that's furthest away, then the rules allow for you to multi-assault the other one as you're moving in. In the case where have have only one model (a Trygon in this case), for this to work at all, it would have to be beautiful coincidence that the Trygon's shortest-distance-path from where he is to BtB with the vehicle put him in contact with the other one.

 

Any scenario I can imagine this happening in either occurs in an idealist vacuum or with a great deal of hand-waving.

[HJL]

i think i probably got cheated but hay ho. i learnt something new.

 

also did you know that if you are in combat already and a second unit charges in you have to strike the unit you were initially in combat with, not the unit that is charging you?..... that is unless i was cheated there as well :/

[Seahawk]

Yea, you were cheated there too. How he played you was the grossly common misunderstanding of the rules (how people still don't understand it and insist the above, I'll never know). Those bullet points he probably pointed to refer to the following situation and quote:

 

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/mod/engaged.png

 

Say the green dude to the right of Mr. X there has a higher Initiative, and kills off the Blues before X strikes. The bullet point says that X cannot now attack the Reds, despite him being within 2" of a friendly in base contact with them, because he was engaged with only the Blues at the start of the combat. What people usually don't get is that the "start of the combat" is not and does not equal or mean "the start of the close combat phase."

[HJL]

oh well its only a game right? i shall have to bring this up with him before our next game i think.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Due to the size of the trygons base, its actual not that hard to multiassult units that are close by, you just have to adjust yourself in the movement/shooting phase (trygons are fleet if I recall) so the angle to the declared target takes you though the secondary targets, as "shortest distance" is not a strait line it forces you to skirt the edges of the secondary target and be engaged.

 

 

And yes, as seahawk said the start of combat is AFTER all assault moves/defender reactions/fall in moves. And it is at the start of combat that which models are engaged with which units is determined. However it is unlikely that you were cheated, being cheated implies intent. What likely happened was an honest missunderstanding. Subtle yet signifigant difference there.

[Seahawk]

Good point Frosty, I didn't really mean "cheated" so much as his opponent simply didn't understand. In the grand scheme of things HJL was 'cheated' of having a proper game by the rules, but it was caused by a misunderstanding...

 

I suppose if it was:

 

...[----].O

[-]

 

(ignore the periods)

 

The trygon could slide along the longer vehicle I suppose on the way to the shorter vehicle, being in BTB the whole time even when it gets to its target.

[HJL]

no, he didnt intentional cheat me, but i do still feel cheated out of a result, unfortunatly "mistakened" isnt a real word :D

[thade]

One other small pocketcase to consider: if two vehicles both Tank Shock! the Trygon and he, say, Death or Glories each of them to Stunned results, in the following Assault Phase - whether yours or your Opponent's!! - the Trygon can hit one or both of the vehicles.

[Reglor]

One other small pocketcase to consider: if two vehicles both Tank Shock! the Trygon and he, say, Death or Glories each of them to Stunned results, in the following Assault Phase - whether yours or your Opponent's!! - the Trygon can hit one or both of the vehicles.

 

I will agree that the Trygon can assault both tanks in its assault phase but I don't think that it can attack them in the tank's assault phase. The rules are written in a way that you have to already assaulted the tank to be able to hit in it's assault phase.

[SeattleDV8]

I'm still not convinced that a single model can multi-assault.

As the first model (the closest) only has premission to assault the declared unit.

BRB Pg. 34 "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units...."

[Commander Sasha]

Mech Guard quite often have multiple vehicles close together, and a Trygon base is pretty big, especially sideways. Also applies to units with multiple tank popping abilities: A Hive tyrant running with a few Tyrant guard comes to mind, lots of S5+ rending attacks.

[dswanick]

As pointed out by DV8 - a unit consisting of a single model may not multi-assault(ie. charge more than one unit), that single model only has permission to assault the unit declared as the target of a charge and must remain 1" away from any unit not the declared target of the charge. Multi-assaulting is only permitted to models in a unit after the first. Now if a single model finds it in BtB after it charges, then - yes it may distribute its attacks amongst multiple units.

[Seahawk]

Ah good point. That clinches it for me then!

[thade]

One other small pocketcase to consider: if two vehicles both Tank Shock! the Trygon and he, say, Death or Glories each of them to Stunned results, in the following Assault Phase - whether yours or your Opponent's!! - the Trygon can hit one or both of the vehicles.

 

I will agree that the Trygon can assault both tanks in its assault phase but I don't think that it can attack them in the tank's assault phase. The rules are written in a way that you have to already assaulted the tank to be able to hit in it's assault phase.

 

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I know we've addressed this on the board here many times before. If your models are in BtB with enemy models come *any* assault phase, your models can assault. It doesn't matter if it's your turn or your opponent's. Perhaps someone who remembers will chime in as to why.

[Reglor]

One other small pocketcase to consider: if two vehicles both Tank Shock! the Trygon and he, say, Death or Glories each of them to Stunned results, in the following Assault Phase - whether yours or your Opponent's!! - the Trygon can hit one or both of the vehicles.

 

I will agree that the Trygon can assault both tanks in its assault phase but I don't think that it can attack them in the tank's assault phase. The rules are written in a way that you have to already assaulted the tank to be able to hit in it's assault phase.

 

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I know we've addressed this on the board here many times before. If your models are in BtB with enemy models come *any* assault phase, your models can assault. It doesn't matter if it's your turn or your opponent's. Perhaps someone who remembers will chime in as to why.

 

I don't think we ever said that you can attack a vehicle that you have not assaulted. "Units that stillhave models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat" bold mine. I read that to mean you have to have charged in your assault phase to be able to attack it in its assault phase.

 

This is the only way to get model into BtB contact with a vehicle without assaulting it first so that may be what is causing the confusion.

[thade]

This is the only way to get model into BtB contact with a vehicle without assaulting it first so that may be what is causing the confusion.

 

As I said, consider the pocket case where two Rhinos Tank Shock! the same PF-wielding Sergeant. He Death or Glories both and succeeds in Immobilizing both of them. This happens during the Movement Phase.

 

Come the Assault phase that same turn (not the Serg's player's turn mind you) that Sergeant is now in BtB with not one but two Rhinos. He can split his attacks between them during that Assault Phase, based on that rule you just quoted. Charging is not necessary.