Reclusiarc versus Libby w/ Unleash Rage

[jbarket]

Hey guys,

 

I'm working on an alternate version of my 1850 list that doesn't use any special characters. We've got a lot of tournaments around here that work that way.

 

Anyway, here's the issue I've run into... why would I take a Reclusiarc over a Librarian with Unleash Rage if I don't take DC?

 

If it's successful, UR will give the squad Preferred Enemy, which allows them rerolls... much like the Chaplain ability does.

 

Am I essentially choosing between a few more attacks and a power weapon versus a psychic hood and another power?

 

Obviously the Libby can fail, or have his ability shut down by other psykers, but other than that...

[Brother Nathan]

reclusiarch has far better stats including an extra wound and initive, an inv save. but the libby has phsycic powers and a hood. but the main difference youd notice, the libby can use his power in both phases, but has to pass a test. the chaplin only gives it when he charges.

personally i run a fast list so my character needs a jumppack. so i used to run a jumpy reclus, but to save points, and because i need models alive the libby with sheild and unlease rage is better for me now. and i dont need epistolary to use his powers effictively...

[Dingareth]

The libby is by far better. Why the Chapy has an Invul, his ability doesn't work in the opponents turn, or in the second round of combat, he can't shut down enemy Psykers, and doesn't have a secondary ability like a Libby does. Also, the Libby has a Force Weapon, so it just comes down to the Invul really.

[jbarket]

That's been my thinking too. Shield has the potential to give a significant portion of my army a temporary invul save, and UR working in both turns makes up for the difference in attacks.

 

Thanks guys.

[Redfinger]

Libby all the way, you get redundancy, protection, effectiveness. It is not about power, it is about balance. Now if you can affoard it I think there are times that running a chappy w/ the smallest unit of DC as a "honor guard" of sorts makes a fun little hitting hard unit.

 

Ashton

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is a tough call. I would say the libby is good but not great. The Recluisarch is always there for you.

[SamaNagol]

It's not an even comparison, because against Nids, Space Wolves and Eldar you won't be casting Unleash Range often. Even against Space MArines you can get shut down.

 

And if you are charging with a Chaplain and a full squad, you should be winning combat in the second round easily anyway.

 

Librarians are not combat HQs and should not be relied on as such. I would run them defensively rather than offensively.

[bulley]

Libby is the more balanced - though part can depend on your meta game.

 

Most "groups" you'll run against other psykers and the hood becomes very valuable. UR gives you bonus on combat in both turns (pending successful roll) and shield (the best 2 combo imo) gives you protection (and on tanks in the open which is bonza if you want to go dakka on 1st turn!).

 

Also he's 100 points to boot!.

 

The rec is nice, better stats, invul save and no need to cast litergies. But he's also v.expensive and basically only useful if you get into combat (obviously) where as the libby has the ability to try and block other powers which is pretty tasty.

 

Its up to you, the Rec is a nice HQ, especially in a very assaulty force, and he does have a bit more surviability. If you dont have Eldar or Psyker heavy in your meta - he's not a bad option.

[Redfinger]

It's not an even comparison, because against Nids, Space Wolves and Eldar you won't be casting Unleash Range often. Even against Space MArines you can get shut down.

 

And if you are charging with a Chaplain and a full squad, you should be winning combat in the second round easily anyway.

 

Librarians are not combat HQs and should not be relied on as such. I would run them defensively rather than offensively.

 

 

This is a good point. Assault based armies are usally lacking in the support area, they will kick your a$$ in assault, but may have a tough time getting there. That is why I feel the Libby is a better choice in assault based lists. However, when the points can be affoarded the chappy and libby combo can be quite nice, I would personally not consider this at any point level below 2k, that is just too much cost.

 

Ashton

[SamaNagol]

I would strongly consider a Librarian in a Rhino with a squad acting as mobile cover for your Assault MArines jump packing, much like the 4th Ed PDF list

[Ozybonza]

While I'd still rather a libby, remember that his power can be countered by hoods/shadow of the warp etc.

 

Just some food for thought.

[Dingareth]

I would strongly suggest that you don't do that, as Hybrid armies hardly ever work well. You're much better off going pure Jumper or pure Mech. The Libby fits well in both of those, as cover can be difficult for both armies to gain- either through dangerous terrain checks or sparse LoS-blocking cover. So the Libby is a better fit than a Chaplain, simply in terms of army survivability.

[Mezkh]

What squads and stuff are you running?

 

Chaplain is much worth the extra points you pay for him IMO. You're guaranteed those rerolls on the charge, and you're guaranteed a fearless squad (nobody has mentioned this?)

 

Morale based abilities are coming back in a big way, fearless is pretty valuable.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am currently running a Librarian with an Honor Guard. Part of the decision to take the Librarian is based on my successor chapter's background. You can always run a Chaplain as a support character in lieu of the Recluisarch. The Chaplain is a great deal for the points with the power weapon and 4++ built in, plus Litanies of Hate and making the unit he is attached to Fearless. My Librarian I upgraded to an Epistolary so he can cast both Unleash Rage and the Sanguine Sword simultaneously. He is a beast when attached to the choppy Honor Guard... There is a lot of serious synergy going on. I think it's important to have S10 built into your army for 5ed so you can insta gib nobs, thunderpups and warbosses - plus you can take out walkers and vehicles as well. There are some units the Librarian will not matchup against so you have to protect him as opposed to the Recluisarch. I'm sure people playing other SM armies wish they had access to a Recluisarch, so he's nothing to sneeze at.

 

0b

[BigBaals]

Totally agree on the ST10 build in your army. There are quite a few Dreadnoughts and a couple Monoliths around my area. Close combat ST10 is a real godsend. Thank you Libby's, Dreads, and Mephiston.

[JamesI]

My experience is the higher stats of the Reclusiarch wins over the every turn rerolls of the libby.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The only time I would take a Librarian over Reclusiarch (I use them together often) is a Librarian in TDA with a SS in a group of Assault Terminators.

It's pretty devastating (Unleash Rage & Sanguine Sword.. yeah I make him an Epistolary).

[DextrousWombat]

The only time I would take a Librarian over Reclusiarch (I use them together often) is a Librarian in TDA with a SS in a group of Assault Terminators.

It's pretty devastating (Unleash Rage & Sanguine Sword.. yeah I make him an Epistolary).

 

Im the same in this regard, i usually run a reclusiarch with infernus pistol and melta bombs and a 5 man unit fo death company as escort in a rhino. Really sweet when it comes to being first to the fight and i dont mind being a bit reckless with them either. All those armour 14 vehicles generally tend to to drop to dreadnoughts or meltaguns anyway.

[Zealadin]

The arguement that powers can be shut down is unrealistic when trying to remove the Lib as a choice.

He has a hood meaning those EXTREMELY dangerous powers your enemy might be using can be strategically blocked (as well as the dice roll that is) just the same as he can be blocked in turn. He is also a psychological weapon on the battle feild with the hood projecting an anti psycher bubble.

He can also be decked out for any role you might need, and is much more supportive than the recl. who plays a single role and has to get the charge to be (truly) effective.

Also I see the 5+ cover save as being pretty amazing for a jumper list, as its a hell of a lot better than rolling over to all the heavy weaponry that will be coming your way.

 

If I was running DC in a LR or SR with a pretty much guaranteed charge I would use the Reclusiarch for the obvious reasons.

 

Considering how dangerous the Recl. makes squads its also fair to say many opponents will be wise enough to avoid being charged so its safe to say the Recl. is equally unreliable to the Lib in this regard unless you greatly out-skill any opponents or as stated previously invest in a delivery system.

The Force weap on the Lib is also a boon.

 

They are relatively close in some respects but cater for different army styles.

[Ruthven]

I've used them both a lot. They are both extremely useful. If you have room for two HQs I would advocate taking one of each.

 

I love running my Reclusiarch/Chaplain with some death company in a rhino with a few extra power weapons and a fist if I have the points. Turn 1, move 18 and pop smoke. If the transport gets popped and your opponent unloads on your Death Company, they probaby shot most of everything they have at the Black-painted marines and left the Red ones mostly alone. Assuming the rest of the assault marines moved up at the same speed or as close to it as they could (jump pack marines going 12" and running if they aren't going to DS), if the enemy focuses all their energy on the death company, the rest of your army has a much easier time on your next turn. If your opponent doesn't deal with the Death Company... well they just left 10 salivating Death machines right in front of his entire army. Sure I know some people are down on the DC, but hey, its fluffy and fun, and with a little planning you can almost always make sure they're not chasing a land speeder across the board. :)

 

As for the Librarian, I've run them both with jump packs and in transports. Both are worth their points. I would almost always be inclined to take the Sanguine Sword and Shield of Sanguinius on the Librarian because I feel it gives him the best balance of offense and defense. Unleash Rage is nice too; it really comes down to personal preference. And again, it comes down to planning. If you're facing another heavy CC army, leave the Librarian in the back of the unit for the first turn of combat, or leave him in the transport so he doesn't get eaten. If you can get the charge and have the initiative, let him have at it.

 

If I am tight on points, it is the librarian every time. If its a smaller game and I am set on bringing my Death Company, then its the Reclusiarch. The two models have very different applications, so it all comes down to how you want your army to work and what your play style is.

[SamaNagol]

I think at the end of the day it is testament to the good job Matt Ward did balancing out the Librarian and Reclusiarch entries. They are both excellent HQ choices.

[Redo]

I think it can be a tough choice but in the end I like to go for the reliablility of the Reclusiarch's power and his improved stats and save. Libby is always my second choice.

[princemigi]

My Librarian I upgraded to an Epistolary so he can cast both Unleash Rage and the Sanguine Sword simultaneously.

 

From what I've read, Sanguine Sword is a one use power that lasts the entire game.

Every other power says something along the lines of "...until the end of the Assault Phase." while Sanguine Sword does not.

[HERO]

My Librarian I upgraded to an Epistolary so he can cast both Unleash Rage and the Sanguine Sword simultaneously.

 

From what I've read, Sanguine Sword is a one use power that lasts the entire game.

Every other power says something along the lines of "...until the end of the Assault Phase." while Sanguine Sword does not.

 

How sure are you of this? And is there an official FAQ on this?

 

Edit: Just looked through the BRB and the actual wording of the spell. Unlike Might of Ancients, there is no expiration to this ability by RAW. But by RAI, you better play like there is or man, will that be a dick move.

[shatter]

What he said.

 

MOST people operate the power phase by phase. MOST people would consider it pretty weak sportsmanship to make it a game-long power.