Ultramarines in the Deathwatch RPG

[Marshal Wilhelm]

(Deathwatch Rulebook, p. 54)

 

I find it interresting that the FFG authors added the last paragraph. The Codex Astartes is regarded by a lot of players (and GW authors...) as a restricting element, despite the fact that the Ultramarines are supposedly the most successful and at the same time the most Codex adherend Chapter.

 

That is very good to see.

<_<

 

Do any Ultras play DW and what do they think of the rules, etc. for the Ultras?

 

EDIT:

 

Why is there no upside down Omega symbol here? Ω

[Legatus]

I have only briefly glanced over the rules, and they seem ok to me. Every Marine from one of the six featured Chapters gains a bonus to two Characteristics and gains a special ability. In some cases there are additional bonuses or restrictions. E.g. a Black Templar gains +5 Weapon Skill and +5 Willpower and has the 'Righteous Zeal' Ability which helps fighting warp creatures. Black Templar DW Marines cannot chose the 'Devastator' or 'Librarian' speciality, and they do not get the bonus for Betchers gland and the sus-an membrane. (What's neat is that most of the organs have some kind of in game effect).

Ultramarines can freely chose two Characteristics to receive a +5 bonus to represent their diversity and they get the 'Favoured Son' ability that helps in dealing with other allies and coordinated efforts (dunno how exactly the effect works out). The Ultramarines are described as excellent mediators and ideal leaders in the book, as they have a measured and balanced demeanor and are not as likely to have issues with other more excentric Chapters.

Looks good to me, though I don't know how all of that will play out in the game.

 

Edit: It seems the different Chapters can also use a few unique abilities later. While the abilities described in the Chapter description are for "solo mode", there are a few "squad mode" abilities described later. During the game, players can act either in "solo mode" or in "squad mode", though I do not know how exactly that works. The Black Templar squad mode ability is 'Holy Vengeance' and when activated (I think the squad's leader can have one ability active) lets the Templar and all squad mates within support range roll extra attacks upon hitting a foe in close combat. The Ultramarine squad mode ability is 'Lead by Example', which grants every squad mate within support range a bonus equal to the Ultramarine's "fellowship" characteristic bonus for every test he needs to make, and the Ultramarine can nominate one member per turn who can re-roll one test. That seems like a pretty powerful ability to me, but again, I am not familiar with the rule system.

There are "defensive" abilities as well. The Black Templar defensive stance 'Armour of Faith' provides resistance against psychic powers and reduces damage suffered from psychic attacks, while the Utramarine stance 'Rally Cry' instantly restores "squad cohesion points" equal to the Ultramarine's fellowship bonus. Unlike other abilities the Ultramarine ability can be used only once per game session and cannot be improved with ranks, so I have no idea how useful it is. Since it is so restricted it might be quite potent.

 

I especially like the 'Lead by Example' ability. While the abilities of the other Chapters significantly improve one certain aspect, the Ultramarine ability improves the overall competence of the squad for all tests. The Black Templar ability let's squad mates make additional attacks, the Blood Angels ability improves squad mates' Weapon Skill, Strength and Toughness, the Space Wolves ability improves grappling, the outnumber bonus in combat and parry and dodge values, the Dark Angels ability let's squad mates act and attack normally while maintaining overwatch, the Storm Warden ability let's squad mates take one extra surprise round ("Lightning Strike"), while the Ultramarine ability grants a bonus to all tests squad mates have to pass and lets one squad mate re-roll one test per turn.

[Techmarine Data007]

You missed the restriction where Squad Mode abilities that aren't Codex can only be used by Brothers of that Chapter. So, a Blood Angel can't benefit from a Black Templar ability.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Wow, thanks Legatus. :tu:

 

Would you say that the book is as 'essential' as, say, the IA articles, for fluff and flavour?

Or is it more just a small part devoted to that and is really an RPG book that happens to be based in 40K?

 

With regards to the Storm Wardens, what are they like?

Deep and adding something to the universe?

 

M2C said the Forgeworld book with the Badab rebellion was an essential book, and I am wondering about this one too ^_^

 

You missed the restriction where Squad Mode abilities that aren't Codex can only be used by Brothers of that Chapter. So, a Blood Angel can't benefit from a Black Templar ability.

 

Really? I thought that was the whole point ~ your party goes into Ultra or Templar mode before the event. Somewhat like getting buffed before fighting monsters in D&D....

 

+++

 

No Devs? It is bad enough that we lose Betchers and sus-an, imo, just from some fluffy statement Pete Haines said in IA:IF ~ D'oh!

But no Devs?

We have HW specialists just like anyone else, it's just that they repel each other like magnets and they can't be in the same squad together :P

.... well, at least until next Codex :drool:

....

[Legatus]

You missed the restriction where Squad Mode abilities that aren't Codex can only be used by Brothers of that Chapter. So, a Blood Angel can't benefit from a Black Templar ability.

Yeah, I am only just reding a bit into the rule system. Seems like only the generic squad mode abilities extend to all members, while the Chapter abilities only work for other members of that Chapter. Though 'Tactical' Marines can chose an ability that lets them extend the benefits to non-Chapter members as well. That test is difficult at first, but gets easier at later ranks.

 

The Ultramarines Ability is perhaps not as potent as I was initially thinking. It adds about a +3 to +5 (or even more, depending on the 'Fellowship' characteristic of the Ultramarine) to tests made, but tests are made with a 'percentile' roll of rolling two D10, so you will have a result between 01 to 100. Where a Test would usually require you to roll under a 53 (example), with the Ultramarine ability it would be improved by a small bit. Though in later ranks that bonus gets doubled, in which case it will become more potent (+6 to +10). Still, I like it as an Ultramarine ability, where the overall competence is improved slightly. And the single re-roll per turn is probably the more substantial element of that rule. (I am not sure whether the model that can re-roll is nominated at the start of the turn or whether you can pick it as a reaction to a failed roll...)

 

 

Would you say that the book is as 'essential' as, say, the IA articles, for fluff and flavour?

Or is it more just a small part devoted to that and is really an RPG book that happens to be based in 40K?

I would hesitate to call it an essential book, as it is not from GW themselves and not even from a direct subsidiary of GW like Black Library or Fanatic Games. Fantasy Flight Games does games for a lot of other companies and settings too. That said, the book is packed with fluff, and especially the fluff on the featured Chapters is a neat collection. It is about three pages per Chapter, and contains the most important informations like their theme, history and combat doctrine. A lot of it is taken directly from the Codex or Index startes, so you will already have read a lot of the passages, but there are a few new bits (like the elaboration on the Codex Astartes' I quoted earlier).

I think the book is a good investment, it is packed with fluff and descriptions of wargear and interresting mechanics. Personally, I love seeing how the typical Chapter traits get translated into a different rule system, or a slightly different description of the Chapters by non-GW authors. I also like getting into rule systems and checking out how other things like the Astartes implants or the weapons and different types of grenade or ammunition are represented in the rules.

As I said, I would not call it "essential", but it is well worth the price.

 

 

With regards to the Storm Wardens, what are they like?

Deep and adding something to the universe?

I haven't looked at them too much. I was more interrested in how the known Chapters are represented. (And I have mostly looked at the Ultramarines so far.) From what I have read the Storm Wardens favour armoured assaults, and they have some kind of honour duel schtick (which would also not have been misplaced with the Templars...). As their solo ability they can call out an enemy to a duel, their 'attack' squad mode lets the squad members take an extra surprise turn and their 'defensive' squad mode improves their shield using abilities (when fighting with a shield they can also parry attacks made against nearby allies and they can make reaction attacks against foes that struck them in close combat).

I am personally more interested in the classic Chapters, but so far I have not seen anything about them that rubbed me the wrong way. But so far I have not read their entire fluff. The Deathwatch Game takes place in one particular region of the Galaxy, and the Storm Wardens are active there, so from a narrative point of view it is explained why they are there.

 

 

I am not sure whether Tactical Marines or other Marines will be able to carry heavy weapons later on (Devastators start with a heavy bolter). I cannot seem to find any reference where any of the classes is upgraded with the 'Heavy Weapon Specialisation' trait. Not even the Devastator. That might be a mistake, or perhaps I have just not found it yet.

 

Edit: Ah, found it. Apparently the Talent 'Astartes Weapon Training' which all Marines start with already includes profficiency for all the weapon classes, including heavy weapons. The 'Heavy Weapon Specialisation' would be a redundant Talent for a Space Marine character, but the book includes a lot of such talents that are not really suitable for Marines but may be found on enemies or other characters. So essentially a Tactical Marine (or Assault Marine, at that), could use heavy weapons as well, if he manages to acquire one (not sure how equipping works). Those 'classes' will still get different talents, skills and characteristic advances than a Devastator Marine, though.

[Techmarine Data007]

First, yeah, no dice on cross-Chapter buffing. That said, generally, the Codex maneuvers are pretty good.

 

Second, I get the no Devs thing for the BT. After all, as a Chapter, they almost universally prefer taking the fight to the enemy.

 

Third, any Marine can carry the standard heavy weapons, i.e. the non-exotic ones. The advantage of playing a Dev, like I do, is that you don't pay requisition to get your heavy bolter and it's ammo backpack, which you would as any other class. That and the two abilities you get to choose from as a Dev are nice.

[Brother Pariah]

This is an interesting topic, but not strictly germain to the research project, so I split it off into a new thread. Enjoy.

[Vash113]

Actually the RPG books are supposedly strictly canon. I'd suggest talking to Kurgan about that more for more direct information on the subject.

 

In any case, I think such an interpretation makes perfect sense. Any guidebook has the inbuilt weakness that those who follow it strictly are predictable, and in war, predictability can be deadly. If an enemy knows exactly how you will react in any given situation you can be manipulated with contemptuous ease and in fact this very notion is used often in Chaos Space Marine material.

[Brother Pariah]

Actually the RPG books are supposedly strictly canon. I'd suggest talking to Kurgan about that more for more direct information on the subject.

 

In any case, I think such an interpretation makes perfect sense. Any guidebook has the inbuilt weakness that those who follow it strictly are predictable, and in war, predictability can be deadly. If an enemy knows exactly how you will react in any given situation you can be manipulated with contemptuous ease and in fact this very notion is used often in Chaos Space Marine material.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't make any sense in reality. That would be like saying that someone could beat the US Marines with contemptuous ease, because they've read their operations manual and their various other field manuals. If you had perfect intelligence on the marines' force, deployment, etc., AND had time to correlate that information with the manual (which you aren't as familiar with) THEN you have a big advantage, but that's a best-case scenario.

[Vash113]

Yeah, but that doesn't make any sense in reality. That would be like saying that someone could beat the US Marines with contemptuous ease, because they've read their operations manual and their various other field manuals. If you had perfect intelligence on the marines' force, deployment, etc., AND had time to correlate that information with the manual (which you aren't as familiar with) THEN you have a big advantage, but that's a best-case scenario.

 

On the contrary, the Flying Tigers in World War II studied Japanese training manuals and with that information they proved highly effective in combat against the Japanese airforce. General Lee was a graduate of West Point and knew the tactics and strategies taught to United States officers during the Civil War and as such knew all of the tricks his opponents would pull until they eventually learned to adapt, but it took time. Suetonius defeated Boudica's Rebellion in ~AD 60 despite having already lost a significant portion of the Roman's military strength in the Britain because he knew how Boudica's soldiers would react and took full advantage of that knowledge to gain the upper hand.

 

And those are just a few examples. There are literally thousands of instances in military history of just such things happening, anytime a military force is predictable they will suffer setbacks of this nature and yes if you have read Marine operations and field manuals you will know what they will do in a given situation and as such can plan ambushes and counter-tactics much easier. As Sun Tzu said: "Know thy enemy." It is a long accepted aspect of military strategy.

 

This concept has other applications as well. The Tet Offensive and George Washington's Crossing the Delaware are examples of attacking when you know your enemy will be unprepared. The North Vietnamese attacked during the Tet Offensive on January, 31st a national holiday when many South Vietnamese and United States personnel were on leave and George Washington attacked across the Delaware on December 25th or Christmas.

 

More subtle and small scale applications exist as well. During World War II the Germans left many booby-traps specially designed to target specific aspects of their opponents. Concertina wire was stretched across roads to behead people driving in the open topped jeeps used by the United States forces. Bombs and live grenades were left in jewelry boxes or attached to skewed paintings, in toilet bowls or behind toilet seats and so on and so forth. In many cases the booby-traps were designed to target enemy officers, the Germans believing that only officers would generally bother to straighten a painting, put down a toilet seat and so on and so forth and it worked. Many cold-hearted snipers have used the strategy of wounding enemy soldiers to draw their comrades into the open and shoot them too, turning one target into three or four, a tactic that relies on the reactions of an opponent and knowing what they will do in a given situation. While relatively unsophisticated and personality based these examples still follow the philosophy of knowing how your enemy will act or re-act in a given situation.

 

Heck the military philosophy even applies to Warhammer and tabletop wargames. One of my favorite strategies against Sisters of Battle or 3.5 Edition Khorn armies was to send infiltrating units behind them to force their berserk units to run away from the real fight and my gunlines. Walking opponents off the board, or forcing Necrons to phase out are other applications of knowing your opponents playbook.

 

So we come back to the concept of the Codex Astartes and predictability and quite simply, anyone who follows a strict set of military guidelines and tactics and faces an opponent who knows that material as well will be predictable and will be at a disadvantage because of this. Just knowing the organization of a Codex Company gives an opponent knowledge of what forces they are facing.

 

The concept has been used a number of times in 40k background. In the Ravens Flight audiobook Corax plans an ambush based purely on what forces he detects composing an Iron Warriors battlegroup and the tactics those forces will adopt when engaged. The discipline of the Iron Warriors made them predictable, and that predictability allowed the Raven Guard to stage a devastating and deadly ambush. The Soul Drinkers books include a team of scouts ambushing a Crimson Fist marine that is part of a sweeper team based off of the team's Codex standard search pattern and formation. Understanding the Codex doctrine tells the scouts exactly how many marines are in the group, how far apart they are, the positioning of each marine in the combat squad and their predictable reaction to an attack.

 

The book Angels of Darkness is all about Cypher staying one step ahead of the Dark Angels, predicting their reactions at every step Cypher leads them to disaster based solely on his knowledge of the Dark Angels traits and doctrine. The last book in the Ultramarines series also relies heavily on the philosophy, with the character of Honsou basing his entire attack, his manipulations and his tactics on the predictable reactions and tactical doctrine of the Ultramarines, whose very discipline allows Honsou to stay one step ahead of them.

 

In short, when you know your opponents playbook and your opponent sticks to that playbook then your opponent becomes predictable, and a predictable opponent is much easier to counter, ambush and defeat than an unpredictable opponent.

 

In fact, now that I think about it, it is this concept that practically defines the Orks in Warhammer 40,000. Their strength is that they are unpredictable and play havoc with the disciplined and organized forces of the Imperium. This is demonstrated no better than in the story Iron Inferno in the short story anthology Fear the Alien.

 

Anyway, the Ultramarines discipline and adherence to the Codex Astartes makes them a formidable force against most opponents, but when facing other Space Marines the Ultramarines are at a disadvantage. The strength when facing an ordinary opponent becomes predictable, unsurprising and easy to counter when facing an opponent who plays or at least knows those same rules and doctrines.

[Legatus]

The concept has been used a number of times in 40k background. In the Ravens Flight audiobook Corax plans an ambush based purely on what forces he detects composing an Iron Warriors battlegroup and the tactics those forces will adopt when engaged.

Other than a Codex army, the Iron Warriors had a very distinct approach.

 

 

The Soul Drinkers books include a team of scouts ambushing a Crimson Fist marine that is part of a sweeper team based off of the team's Codex standard search pattern and formation.

How unfortunate for the Crimson Fist that the Soul Drinkers were aware that their enemies are Astartes, but the Crimson Fists apparently were not.

 

 

The book Angels of Darkness is all about Cypher staying one step ahead of the Dark Angels, predicting their reactions at every step Cypher leads them to disaster based solely on his knowledge of the Dark Angels traits and doctrine.

This is odd since Cypther would not be familiar with the content of the Codex Astartes, which the Dark Angels had adopted after the destruction of Caliban and the following Second Founding. At least the Soul Drinkers would have been familiar with it, having been a loyalist Chapter themselves.

 

 

The last book in the Ultramarines series also relies heavily on the philosophy, with the character of Honsou basing his entire attack, his manipulations and his tactics on the predictable reactions and tactical doctrine of the Ultramarines, whose very discipline allows Honsou to stay one step ahead of them.

Again, Honsou would not have been familiar with the Codex Astartes. Or was he a former Imperial Fist? I don't remember. Either way, the "Codex Astartes" includes 10,000 years of accounts of battles against other Astartes, so that the Ultramarines could be taken by surprise like this is really rather implausible. But then this is Graham "the Codex is a disadvantage" McNeill we are talking about.

 

And that is really the crux of the matter. The Codex is not a guide a la "every time the enemy approaches with tanks, do X" type of manual. It does have descriptions on how to perform all kinds of anti tank manouvers, but it then includes 10,000 years of history on tank battles against all foes imaginable. How do Orks use tanks? How do Eldar use tanks? How to deal with tanks if you don't have the proper forces and equipment? what kind of different ploys or gambits have been used with tanks? How to fight tanks if you have the 1st Company available. How to fight tanks if you have the 10th Company available. How to fight tanks if they are accompanies by a massed infantry advance? How to fight tanks if they have mutated faces and tentacles?

To catch the Ultramarines on the wrong foot one would have to come up with a ploy that has not been attempted in the past 10,000 years of military history.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This is an interesting topic, but not strictly germain to the research project, so I split it off into a new thread. Enjoy.

 

Woah! I was thinking 'I never posted such a thing'

:P

[Brother Captain Ed]

To catch the Ultramarines on the wrong foot one would have to come up with a ploy that has not been attempted in the past 10,000 years of military history.

 

Truth. Why the writers insist that having military doctrine and tactical training is somehow a disadvantage baffles me.

[Grey Mage]

To catch the Ultramarines on the wrong foot one would have to come up with a ploy that has not been attempted in the past 10,000 years of military history.

 

Truth. Why the writers insist that having military doctrine and tactical training is somehow a disadvantage baffles me.

Because, any set dogma becomes a libability over time.

 

This is brought up time and again, and some people refute it every time- but that doesnt change the truth of it.

 

Good advice is helpful, and a tactical manual full of good advice is very helpful. But following the letter of a book is its own disadvantage, as it leads to stagnation over time.

[Captain Idaho]

Because, any set dogma becomes a libability over time.

 

This is brought up time and again, and some people refute it every time- but that doesnt change the truth of it.

 

Good advice is helpful, and a tactical manual full of good advice is very helpful. But following the letter of a book is its own disadvantage, as it leads to stagnation over time.

 

I actually agree, and I think we need to elaborate so other members here understand what this means to the Ultramarines:

 

To be honest the true strength of the Ultramarines is their quick thinking military minds reinforced with the best possible advice they can get. The poorer commanders, the ones who fall to the Ultramarines "weakness", are the ones who allow their tactics to become stagnant and dogmatic.

 

It's why the Ultramarines are on the whole sucessful. Most of their Commanders were good enough to use be unpredictable and reinforced with sound advice, yet throughout history, just as the Space Wolves have their Wulfen, the Blood Angels those who fall to the Red Thirst and Black Rage, so too do the Ultramarines have moments when some of their number become dogmatic and predictable.

 

Of course, the latest Ultramarines books seem to be showing the Ultramarines being dogmatic and they suffer for it. If they are being dogmatic then they are going to suffer for it, but then that was part of Calgar's humility in the end scene of the book, where he realised he had fallen to pride and complacentancy.

 

A word on The Chapter's Due

 

McNeil's main fault with that book is it wasn't very clear that the Ultramarines were suffering from a fall from grace in a similar way to Blood Angels; that they were becoming dogmatic slowly but surely. I missed this first time round, but re-read the book and realised it now I wasn't initially shocked by the devastation in the book.

 

Ironically, the attack from the Ironwarriors and their Chaos allies actually saved the Ultramarines from their slow decline, as Calgar survived to learn from his lessons...

 

@ McNeil, if you are out there: To be honest I may have been being dense missing the Ultramarines' fall from grace (as I termed it), as shocked as I was by the events within the book. But I think I wasn't the only one to miss such a thing?

[Legatus]

I guess I should probably repeat the quote that originally spawned this thread (or the reply from Marhal Wilhelm).

 

 

"For any given tactical situation, the Codex offers hundreds of pages devoted to how it may be met and overcome. Each warrior of the [ultramarines] Chapter is required to memorise whole sections of the Codex so that within a company there exists an entire record of the Codex's tenets. The wisdom of thousands of the Imperium's warriors has contributed to the Codex, and details on everything from unit markings to launching a full-scale planetary assault are contained within its pages.

This is not to say that the Ultramarines are hidebound or unimaginative in their thinking, for it must not be forgotten that Primarch Roboute Guilliman is regarded as one of the most imaginative and innovative military thinkers of all time. It is rather a deep-seated belief that every problem can be solved with recourse to the Codex Astartes, that there is no need to reinvent solutions to dilemmas solved long ago. By their strict adherence to the Codex, the Ultramarines are in fact freed by it. The success of this doctrine is self-evident in the countless thousands of battle honours the Chapter has earned over then millennia of loyal service to the Imperium."

(Deathwatch Rulebook, p. 54)

 

 

So for one thing the Ultramarines are described as being quite capable to react to uncommon situations. I could give you several examples of where Guilliman had to deal with unusual situations but managed to overcome them, so there is historical precedent for that being true.

 

The next important point is that the Codex Astartes is not just some book, it is a massive piece of work spanning several books, and not even the average Ultramarine has memorized it in its entirety. It is therefor extremely unlikely and highly implausible for an enemy to "know" the Codex Astartes and be able to formulate counter strategies based on that.

The Codex Astartes is not "one way to fight", it is all ways to fight. The Ultramarines take their pick depending on the circumstances and the conditions. And if they happen to fight a former loyalist Chapter who would be knowledgeable of the Codex Astartes, then that too would be a specific circumstance calling for a diffeent approach.

 

On the other hand, a few of the Legions were described as having very narrow sets of combat doctrines. Like the pre-heresy Imperial Fists: "Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative." Or the Iron Warriors: "The Iron Warriors follow a simple method. They commence battle with a (...)"

A lot of the Legions had very specific approaches to warfare. And a lot of these approaches had been included in the Codex Astartes. We know the Iron Warriors doctrine was.

 

It therefor stands to reason that the Ultramarines would know how the Iron Warriors fight, but the Iron Warriors would not know how the Ultramarines fight.

[The Emperor's Champion]

EDIT:

 

Why is there no upside down Omega symbol here? Ω

Agemo - ℧

 

The next important point is that the Codex Astartes is not just some book, it is a massive piece of work spanning several books, and not even the average Ultramarine has memorized it in its entirety. It is therefor extremely unlikely and highly implausible for an enemy to "know" the Codex Astartes and be able to formulate counter strategies based on that.

The Codex Astartes is not "one way to fight", it is all ways to fight. The Ultramarines take their pick depending on the circumstances and the conditions. And if they happen to fight a former loyalist Chapter who would be knowledgeable of the Codex Astartes, then that too would be a specific circumstance calling for a diffeent approach.

Aye. The original Codex Astartes that was written/compiled 10,000 years ago by Guilliman alone in a very small amount of time was said to be 4 volumes. The Codex Astartes has been growing and evolving for those 10,000 years with the input from thousands of master tacticians, generals, heroes, etc. The Codex Astartes must be truly immense now. Indeed, IIRC there is mention that the entire "document" now occupies several libraries.

 

It is my understanding, however, that there must be a "core" version of the Codex Astartes that is even more fundamental than the original 4 volumes produced by Guilliman, because many Codex Marines, and certainly every Ultramarine, carries with him a copy of the Codex Astartes, if the Deathwatch RPG book is to be believed (and I certainly think it's one of the most well thought out books to be produced in ages). Additionally, I find it unlikely that a Company of Marines would be capable of memorizing several libraries full of Codex doctrine between their 100 Brothers. Even with a full-strength Company of Marines with photographic memory (which many, but not all, have), that's a hell of a lot of information. They'd have to have far more time on their hands to dedicate to study than they do.

I suppose it's possible that every warrior carries with him a data-slate containing the original 4 volume Codex, but then it seems absurd to claim that it's hard to know what the original version says....

[chaplain belisarius]

fascinating..i really enjoyed this thread...:)

 

just checked out the storm wardens on lexicanium...they look very nice (but what is it with invented chapters and their origins being shrouded in mystery?)

[Gree]

General Lee was a graduate of West Point and knew the tactics and strategies taught to United States officers during the Civil War and as such knew all of the tricks his opponents would pull until they eventually learned to adapt, but it took time.

 

No, Lee was a great general, yes. But his main sucesses came from facing people who were vastly inferior to him in skill. McClelen could have destroyed Lee during the Seven Weeks or at Antetiem if he had only been a little bit more agressive. Poor Union intelligence also played a part in the early lack of Union sucesses against Lee. Pope was an idiot disliked even by his own command and Hooker simply was unlucky. McClellen was this close to victory over Lee on many occcasions, but suffered form his own timid nature.

 

The concept has been used a number of times in 40k background. In the Ravens Flight audiobook Corax plans an ambush based purely on what forces he detects composing an Iron Warriors battlegroup and the tactics those forces will adopt when engaged. The discipline of the Iron Warriors made them predictable, and that predictability allowed the Raven Guard to stage a devastating and deadly ambush.

 

Except the Iron Warriors pretty much have one method of combat. There IA even as it. Meanwhile the Ultramairnes are far more flexible in their methods of war.

 

The discipline of the Iron Warriors made them predictable, and that predictability allowed the Raven Guard to stage a devastating and deadly ambush. The Soul Drinkers books include a team of scouts ambushing a Crimson Fist marine that is part of a sweeper team based off of the team's Codex standard search pattern and formation. Understanding the Codex doctrine tells the scouts exactly how many marines are in the group, how far apart they are, the positioning of each marine in the combat squad and their predictable reaction to an attack.

 

As said before, The Fists were expecting cultists or Dark Eldar at Gravenhold, not Soul Drinker scouts in that instance.

 

The book Angels of Darkness is all about Cypher staying one step ahead of the Dark Angels, predicting their reactions at every step Cypher leads them to disaster based solely on his knowledge of the Dark Angels traits and doctrine.

 

Not really. Cypher has been implied to be protected by an uknown benefactor (It was even in his rules). In any case that would be more with the Dark Angel's own traditons, not the Codex.

 

The last book in the Ultramarines series also relies heavily on the philosophy, with the character of Honsou basing his entire attack, his manipulations and his tactics on the predictable reactions and tactical doctrine of the Ultramarines, whose very discipline allows Honsou to stay one step ahead of them.

 

Not really, Honsou had his sucesses, but he ultimately lost. And the Ultramarrnes did't need to pull of some codex defying manuver to defeat the Bloodborn.

 

In fact, now that I think about it, it is this concept that practically defines the Orks in Warhammer 40,000. Their strength is that they are unpredictable and play havoc with the disciplined and organized forces of the Imperium. This is demonstrated no better than in the story Iron Inferno in the short story anthology Fear the Alien.

 

Not quite. We have many more examples of the orks getting owned by the Astartes in terms of tactics. Really, Orks often win over Astartes due to numbers rather than unpredicatability. Often orks tactics consist or a headlong charge into the teeth of enemy guns. (The orks in Iron Inferno were Blood Axe Kommandos, so hardly the normal orks terms of tactics. Plus the General in the short story was inexperianced with fighting orks. Sicarius or Calgar would have taken apart that ork force with ease.)

 

Anyway, the Ultramarines discipline and adherence to the Codex Astartes makes them a formidable force against most opponents, but when facing other Space Marines the Ultramarines are at a disadvantage. The strength when facing an ordinary opponent becomes predictable, unsurprising and easy to counter when facing an opponent who plays or at least knows those same rules and doctrines.

 

Not really, the Iron Warriors ultimately lost and when we see Ultramarines take on Chaos Marines in other media they often are not depicted as outschooled or even on the losing side that much.

 

Again, Honsou would not have been familiar with the Codex Astartes. Or was he a former Imperial Fist?

 

Honsou indicates that he was a Post-Heresy recruit to the Iron Warriros Legion with half Iron Warrior geneseed and half Fist geneseed. He appears to be raised an Iron Warrior.

 

Regarldess Legatus has a point, Honsou could not have known the company's worth of Codex information in his mind. Unless he had some sort of mental mutattion or some sort of Chaos gift.

[Grey Mage]

Regarldess Legatus has a point, Honsou could not have known the company's worth of Codex information in his mind. Unless he had some sort of mental mutattion or some sort of Chaos gift.

Why not?

 

The fluff talks about printings, copies, et all of the C:A in such a manner that they must be pretty common. Indeed, DW states that many marines carry a copy on them, and read from it daily. Getting ahold of one is as easy as killing a marine and stripping his body, something Honsou could easily have done with an Ultramarine Tac squad years before.

 

Yes, the codex does evolve- slowly. Yes, it has alot of information in it, and yes an excellent commander can make the most of that information while staying fresh with his strategy and unpredictable as need requires it. Most commanders will fall into habits however, and that includes ultramarines unless were going with the 'ultras are perfect so shush' stances, and will end up repeating certain tactics time and again because they work well. Careful study of the texts/events/personages that a leader has learned from will tell you alot about their fighting style, how they think, and wether or not theyll have a particular pattern for an attack- wich in turn can allow you to lead them into mental traps.

 

Indeed, happens all the time in 40k games :).

 

Is it so preposterous that the Ultras fall into this at times? Is it so shocking to note that not every single one of their commanders is superior to the chapter masters of most other orders? I dont think so. With such a wealth of information available to them I think it more likely that they would take what they needed from it as they needed from it, and like any other mortal would try what they 'know' to be a good idea before moving onto other thoughts.

[Octavulg]

In fact, the statement quoted above by Legatus mentons that they do resort to the Codex first...

[Legatus]

Is it so preposterous that the Ultras fall into this at times? Is it so shocking to note that not every single one of their commanders is superior to the chapter masters of most other orders? I dont think so. With such a wealth of information available to them I think it more likely that they would take what they needed from it as they needed from it, and like any other mortal would try what they 'know' to be a good idea before moving onto other thoughts.

I am more objecting to the notion that Chapters that rely on the Codex Astartes would be the ones that could easily be outmanouvered by someone else who heard about the Codex, when in the background the Codex doctrine is described as more universal and diverse and all the divergen Chapters or other forces are generally the ones described with a more limited approach to warfare. E.g. Iron Warriors, sieges all the time. White Scars, no heavy material, only light and fast units. The Ultramarines? They probably have the doctrines of both of those Chapters included in the Codex (the Iron Warrior doctrines are for sure), so does it really make sense that an Iron Warrior would be the one exploiting the limited options of the Ultramarines?

 

Also, does not relying on the Codex Astartes help one to come up with ploys and tricks that have not been used in the past 10,000 years? That does not really seem to be reasonable to assume either.

[Gree]

Regarldess Legatus has a point, Honsou could not have known the company's worth of Codex information in his mind. Unless he had some sort of mental mutattion or some sort of Chaos gift.

Why not?

 

The fluff talks about printings, copies, et all of the C:A in such a manner that they must be pretty common. Indeed, DW states that many marines carry a copy on them, and read from it daily. Getting ahold of one is as easy as killing a marine and stripping his body, something Honsou could easily have done with an Ultramarine Tac squad years before.

 

Except Honsou would only know a small part of the Codex in that case. Unless Honsou slaughtered an entire Ultramarine company and mandged to extract the entirety of that tactical doctrine from them, I don't see how how would know even a small portion of the Codex. Remember, a Codex is too big for just one Marine and is memorized throughout an entire company.

 

Yes, the codex does evolve- slowly.

 

No, we don't know the rate of which the codex evolves.

 

Careful study of the texts/events/personages that a leader has learned from will tell you alot about their fighting style, how they think, and wether or not theyll have a particular pattern for an attack- wich in turn can allow you to lead them into mental traps.

 

Indeed, happens all the time in 40k games :D.

 

I disagree, real war is hardly that simple. Some commanders do that, others are more unpredictable (Manstein at Krusk for instance) and still others followed a set of tactics in every battle yet still won. (Wellington's penchant for defense)

 

However going by your logic the Ultramarines would have an easier time to exploiting Honsou's style because he is an Iron Warrior who tends to follow a certain style of battle. The Ultramarines would have more options to choose from than the Iron Warriros limited playbook.

 

Is it so shocking to note that not every single one of their commanders is superior to the chapter masters of most other orders?

 

I don't believe anyone every claimed that. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Octavulg]

You know, generally, what the Iron Warriors will do. However, the Ultramarines are kind enough to give you the book on what they will do.

 

The Ultramarines would know roughly what the Iron Warriors might do - but the Iron Warriors would seem more likely to move outside the sphere of what they have done in the past, since they don't think they have a book that does not need to be moved away from. They also might have an easier time predicting what the Ultramarines will do - because the Ultramarines were polite enough to write it down for them. The Iron Warriors have preferred methods, but the Ultramarines have codified doctrine, if you will. Great Ultramarines will transcend doctrine when necessary - but not all Ultramarines can be great Ultramarines.

 

Eskrador demonstrates this decently - the Alpha Legion knew what to expect from the Ultramarines. However, it also demonstrates that at least one Ultramarine knows the risks of this and works to avoid them - Guilliman breaks with the Codex in his attack, with at least medium success.

 

I guess the point is that the Codex does come with drawbacks.

[Legatus]

You know, generally, what the Iron Warriors will do. However, the Ultramarines are kind enough to give you the book on what they will do.

I don't think that is a fitting description. The portable Codex mentioned in the Deathwatch rulebook is said to contain "the core" of the Codex Astartes, or at least one interpretation of what would constitute its core. The actual Codex fills several librariums. When even some later founded loyalist Chapters, who have an actual copy of the full Codex, cannot allways interprete and apply the Codex doctrine as successful as the Ultramarines do, how much hope would a traitor who optained a "core version" or even a full librarium of the Codex have to abuse it in his favour?

 

 

The Ultramarines would know roughly what the Iron Warriors might do - but the Iron Warriors would seem more likely to move outside the sphere of what they have done in the past, since they don't think they have a book that does not need to be moved away from. They also might have an easier time predicting what the Ultramarines will do - because the Ultramarines were polite enough to write it down for them. The Iron Warriors have preferred methods, but the Ultramarines have codified doctrine, if you will. Great Ultramarines will transcend doctrine when necessary - but not all Ultramarines can be great Ultramarines.

I would say the secret lies in the application. Whether the Codex will be of use depends on the ability of the commander to assess and recognise the conditions and then on him to decide which approach woul be most suitable. The Codex helps with that by suggesting efficient approaches on the one hand, and by providing an exhaustive library of precedents and examples on the other hand.

A lot in strategy and tactics relies on estimating how the opponent will act, and coming up with a way to deny his goals or counter his plans. And I am putting it forward that the Codex is an incredible aid in that regard. It will tell of 10,000 years of manouvers and ploys different imperial or xeno generals have used, so will be usefull in recognising the motives of the opponent. It is, essentially, the experience of 10,000 years of warfare.