Ultramarines in the Deathwatch RPG

[Octavulg]

I don't think that is a fitting description. The portable Codex mentioned in the Deathwatch rulebook is said to contain "the core" of the Codex Astartes, or at least one interpretation of what would constitute its core. The actual Codex fills several librariums. When even some later founded loyalist Chapters, who have an actual copy of the full Codex, cannot allways interprete and apply the Codex doctrine as successful as the Ultramarines do, how much hope would a traitor who optained a "core version" or even a full librarium of the Codex have to abuse it in his favour?

 

Loyalists have turned traitor. I suspect Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges maintain copies. Guilliman disseminated at least some versions to his brothers. They could just steal it from a library.

 

A lot in strategy and tactics relies on estimating how the opponent will act, and coming up with a way to deny his goals or counter his plans. And I am putting it forward that the Codex is an incredible aid in that regard. It will tell of 10,000 years of manouvers and ploys different imperial or xeno generals have used, so will be usefull in recognising the motives of the opponent. It is, essentially, the experience of 10,000 years of warfare.

 

It will. But I'm sure you can also see how that could be exploited to the opponent's advantage, since the Ultramarines believe that the Codex contains the solutions to their problems. It will make it somewhat easier to mislead your opponent - because you have a much more concrete guide to what response a particular action is likely to provoke.

 

I'm not saying it's not useful, just that it also comes with disadvantages. This weird belief that being Codex adherent simultaneously makes you better at working with and without it is silly.

[Legatus]

I'm not saying it's not useful, just that it also comes with disadvantages. This weird belief that being Codex adherent simultaneously makes you better at working with and without it is silly.

I am more worried by the quite wide spread assumption that Codex Chapters are among the more restricted forces, and that reliance on the Codex is a disadvantage. It would be bad enough if only some players felt that way, but that seems to be the view of a few GW/BL authors as well.

 

Also, I would say that those Chapters being familiar with the Codex Astartes would have an easier time coming up with novel ideas than Chapters (or forces) that did not know the Codex, as those would be more bound to just repeat things form the past without being aware of that. (I would have loved to link the homer simpson trojan horse bit if I had found it on youtume, but I couldn't find it.)

 

Either way, I can think of four examples of the top of my head where Guilliman (three examples) or the Ultramarines (one example) were presented with a new and unresolved problem and managed to overcome them, so one can definitely not claim that intractable dogmatism and lack of innovation would be a disadvantage of the Ultramarines. In case of Guilliman that were his very first assignment to defeat the marauders in the Macraggan mountain area, which he did brilliantly. He had learned everything on military hitsory the libraries of Macragge had to offer, but in the past no general had managedo to really pacify that region, so he had no material to rely on. The next would be the way he conducted the Ultramarines' Great Cursade efforts and their supply lines, which he did more efficiently than any of the other Legions, so it does not appear to have been a pre-existing methodology either. The third for Guilliman is when he was fighting the Alpha Legion. Though the Alpha Legion managed to trap and harrass the Ultramarine advance force, his initial plan had succeeded (if not with the desired result), and he had demonstrated that he could cope with an enemy that was knowledgeable of his doctrines. Another example is how the Ultramarines managed to fight the Hive Fleet Behemoth. It was an entirely unconventional foe, but I think the Ultramarines were adapting pretty quickly. At least the fluff usually gives them credit for having been quite successful against Hive Fleet behemoth, and not really having survived on sheer luck alone. (An entire segmentum fleet was involved, of course, but IIRC Calgar had overall command of the defense efforts.) So, really, it is not like predictability or the inability to adjust is left open as a glaring flaw in the Ultramarines' record. I think it has been sufficiently adressed in the background.

[Gree]

You know, generally, what the Iron Warriors will do. However, the Ultramarines are kind enough to give you the book on what they will do.

 

The Ultramarines would know roughly what the Iron Warriors might do - but the Iron Warriors would seem more likely to move outside the sphere of what they have done in the past, since they don't think they have a book that does not need to be moved away from. They also might have an easier time predicting what the Ultramarines will do - because the Ultramarines were polite enough to write it down for them. The Iron Warriors have preferred methods, but the Ultramarines have codified doctrine, if you will. Great Ultramarines will transcend doctrine when necessary - but not all Ultramarines can be great Ultramarines.

 

However the Iron Warriors have ot have knowledge of everything in the Codex to have a good prediction, not exactly an easy thing when the Codex is being revised and updated over the centuries and the only complete form would be in the minds of an entire company.

 

But yes, to use the Codex fully one has to be a good enough leader to use it.

 

Eskrador demonstrates this decently - the Alpha Legion knew what to expect from the Ultramarines. However, it also demonstrates that at least one Ultramarine knows the risks of this and works to avoid them - Guilliman breaks with the Codex in his attack, with at least medium success.

 

Eskrador is a rather poor example. Much of what we know is suspect because Kravin was strongly implied to be an Alpha Legion traitor. Much of the facts are rather dubious.

 

Loyalists have turned traitor. I suspect Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges maintain copies. Guilliman disseminated at least some versions to his brothers. They could just steal it from a library.

 

It might not always be the same version that the Ultramarines are using. Insignium Astartes points out that many ''codices'' have gotten interpreted and changed by different chapters. What is true in one version of the Codex may not be true in the Ultramarines version of the codex.

[Legatus]

Perhaps we should decide whether to discuss the Codex Astartes and adherence to it in general or whether to focus in aprticulat on the Ultramarines' adherence and use of it.

 

I am not sure every Astartes ship has a copy of the Codex Astartes. As an electronical version that might be plausible, but on the other hand the 40K universe often uses the notion of dusty old libraries with ancient tomes, and I would not be surprised if the Codex Astartes of a Chapter would only exist in such libraries at their fortress monastery. Perhaps in some cases as actual books, but in other cases in the form of old and big data machines. Both is feasible, and I do not think we can positively assume either way.

Edit: At least I do not remember having read about it off the top of myhead.

 

 

Edit2: Another point that just occured to me. For as monumental and as exhaustive as the Codex is said to be, and for as little as we know about it's detailed content, don't you think that the issue of the opponent being knowledgeable about the Codex Astartes would have been adressed in the Codex? After all, one of the Codex' main articles is the decree to limit Chapter size, which was a result of the fear that in the future other commanders would turn and take their Marines with them. So obviously Chapters adhering to the Codex Astartes doctrine turning traitor had been contemplated as a real possibility by Guilliman. And the purpose of the Codex had never been to elevate one particular Chapter over another, but to enable all Chapters to operate to the highest standard. Two Codex Chapters going to war against each other would probably have been considered. Of course in that case the Codex can not provide any tips to dominate above the other, just a few very important guidelines to keep in mind. It would then be entirely up to the individual Chapter commanders, their warriors and their resources.

[chaplain belisarius]

any more info on the storm wardens? they seem pretty interesting...^_^

[The Emperor's Champion]

DWRPG pg174

The entirety of the Codex Astartes fills immense librariums, but many Space Marines carry the heart of this sacred text into battle. Of course, interpretations of what passages form the core of the codex vary even more than the forms it has been transcribed into over the millennia since the Second Founding. From hand-copied tomes in etched leather to crystal-circuited data-crypts, the collected wisdom of Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines--and arguably the most celebrated war tactician the Imperium has ever seen--endures in forms uncounted. It is also the guiding doctrine for how most Chapters operate today. many Battle-Brothers, particularly the descendants of Guilliman, never pass a day without studying from this text.

[Night Dragon]

I don't have a lot of canon knowledge of the Codex Astartes, but I have always thought of it like Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". Tactical advice which applies to any situation. The way I picture Guilliman wrote it was initially as a small collection of tactical advice, maybe boiled down into pithy little statements like in the Art of War, with elaborating information. Throughout the years, more case studies have been added to it, and it's basic tenets have been analyzed extensively.

 

I agree with people saying that not all Ultramarines are "Great" Ultramarines, and many can and have been outwitted by more skilled opponents. Not everyone can be an exceptional leader, some have to be average or just plain bad. But I don't think knowledge of the Codex Astartes would help anyone outwit the Ultramarines specifically. It would help anyone who got their hands on it become a better strategist and tactician, which would help them beat anybody.

[chaplain belisarius]

i see it as like a cross between the art of war and a US military manual...possibly consisting of several volumes?

 

kinda like the encyclopaedia brittannica....OF WAR! :)

[Grey Mage]

I'm not saying it's not useful, just that it also comes with disadvantages. This weird belief that being Codex adherent simultaneously makes you better at working with and without it is silly.

I am more worried by the quite wide spread assumption that Codex Chapters are among the more restricted forces, and that reliance on the Codex is a disadvantage. It would be bad enough if only some players felt that way, but that seems to be the view of a few GW/BL authors as well.

Since they write the canon, perhaps theres reason for this?

[Legatus]

Thankfully such notions have not been included in any Codex yet. McNeill just keeps including it in his Ultramarine novels. But his history of handling the Ultramarines is not exactly stellar. When he was writing the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines he gave them two distinct units, and when he was given the task to write a novel series about the Ultrtamarines he chose to write one about a decidedly "un-ultramarine" Character. With the script for the movie being written by Abnett, perhaps someone at GW has finally realized that their poster Chapter should be handled by someone who knows what he's doing. And so they had Matt Ward write the new Codex Space Marines... On second thought...

[The Emperor's Champion]

Well, I'll take Ward's shenanigans over McNeill's any day.

 

I'm just hoping that giving Abnett the movie and giving Kyme the Black Reach/Damnos books means they've FINALLY figured out that McNeill needs to be kept away from it.

[NightrawenII]

But I don't think knowledge of the Codex Astartes would help anyone outwit the Ultramarines specifically. It would help anyone who got their hands on it become a better strategist and tactician, which would help them beat anybody.

It's much easier to examine the enemy actions, when you have these very actions written black on white. Rather than roughly knowing, how would your opponent respond.

[Legatus]

Not neccessarily if the enemy actions are spread over several librariums.

[Grey Mage]

Not neccessarily if the enemy actions are spread over several librariums.

But fairly easy if the majority of what they use is available in a single volume- like the one carried by most ultramarines into battle.

 

Even easier with a captured rapid strike vessel's potential databanks and hypno-induction facilities.......

[Gree]

Not neccessarily if the enemy actions are spread over several librariums.

But fairly easy if the majority of what they use is available in a single volume- like the one carried by most ultramarines into battle.

 

Most Ultramarines carry the entire Codex Astartes into battle? I was under the impression that the codex was spread out among the Company.

 

Even easier with a captured rapid strike vessel's potential databanks and hypno-induction facilities.......

 

I'm not sure hypno-induction faculties will quite work that way. Going from the Ragnar books those kind of machines are anchient and not exactly understood by Astartes (Although that could be just true for the Wolves, I don't know)

 

For example you could pop in a Black Legionary, and try and have him learn about the Codex and then have him wake up talking about the glory of Guilliman or something like that.

[NightrawenII]

Not neccessarily if the enemy actions are spread over several librariums.

Not neccessary if you create a standard situation, as described in codex you have in possession, to provoke a reaction from enemy. In such case you know with high confidence, that enemy will react in *this and that* way.

 

Most Ultramarines carry the entire Codex Astartes into battle? I was under the impression that the codex was spread out among the Company.

There is contradiction to it.

 

The DW rpg states, that each individual marine carry a "core" Codex with him.

The C: UM states that the knowledge of Codex is spread amongs the members of Company.

 

Knowing this, I would say there "core" rulebook is easy to get(kill a marine), but the expansions on themes are in minds of marines and therefore a little difficult to obtain.

[Legatus]

Not neccessarily if the enemy actions are spread over several librariums.

But fairly easy if the majority of what they use is available in a single volume- like the one carried by most ultramarines into battle.

Most Ultramarines carry the entire Codex Astartes into battle? I was under the impression that the codex was spread out among the Company.

The Deathwatch Rulebook has a "Codex Astartes" item that Deathwatch Marines can carry with them (unfortunately it does not confer any kind of bonus...). It is said to include the "core" of the Codex Astartes, or at least one of the myriad interpretation fo what would constitute the "core".

 

While I think that this would be quite useful for a traitor Legion to obtain, mainly for improving their own understanding of tactics and effective Astartes operations, I don't really think that it would help them outwit a Codex Chapter which uses the actual multi-librarium Codex Astartes as the basis for their operations. The book that Deathwatch Marines get to take with them is a small item that joe average Marine carries with him for personal study. It is not the extent of knowledge a Space Marine Captain should have about it.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I imagine that comparing the Codex Astartes carried by Marines into battle to the Codex Astartes that fills vast libraries, would be just about the same as comparing Pocket Ref to several libraries full of survival manuals, medical journals, English/math/science/physics/chemistry textbooks, electricians manuals, phone books, Boy Scout Handbooks, etc etc etc.

 

Yea, it's handy to have a little pocket sized guide to a bewildering array of subjects, but it's still nothing compared to the colossal amounts of information needed to actually master any of those subjects.

 

 

 

For the record, Pocket Ref is freakin' awesome.

[Hrvat]

There is a lot of debate what C:A is and what it includes. This is my personal opinion based on what I had read in the last dozen years or so.

 

The original codex was writen in archaic prose(that allows different interpretation, if those blurbs in the C:SM are anything to go by these could mean anything) and as it can be read these were guidlines how to fight battles, the only rule was 1000-man thing, followed by exaples (Emperor help SM if that was writen in the same form as those blurbs because from our 'modern' point of view it is almost useless). A thing worth remembering is that Guilliman was not gathering all the tactics, but just the ones he thought were correct ways of fighting. I agree that on most occassions these are the best but I find it beyond belief that his personal preferances and views of combat did not blind him to other in certain situations more benifitial ways of war(AL or NL style). We also know that once he decided what proper tactics were he used them without deviation. Only time when he went against them was on Eskrador and UM deny that happened which would mean he never did deviate from what he chose as correct.

 

In general Codex is a great thing but we know that the original no longer exists and the oldes copy is from M33, and is generaly thought to be Apocrphy of Skaros(this document also includes histories of some SM chapters like White Scars) thought other three document make the same claim. All of these differe from one another. The problem comes from the fact that the original guidelines were over the millenia turned into a "highly developed treaties" and yet when people talk about the Codex say words such as rigid adherance. How can you adhere rigidly to an ever evolving document. There my personal belief is that Imperium as a whole develops the Codex but SM Chapter do their own thing sticking to their "originals".

 

How could GW see codex as a weaknees? Well because it is, codex is a liability of sorts. It gives you the "correct" guidelines how to conduct a certain operation and the only thing the enemy needs to outwit you is to replicate battle A into battle B and they will know how you will react and what will you do. What makes Codex so great is its great witdh and covering of various subject but in a way a Codex force is just like a Black Templar or Space Wolf force, though the later is somewhat more flexible, due to their tendency for earatic behaviour.

 

In short Codex is a great asset to any space marine, but it is just the "correct" way of fighting a war as seen by Guilliman(though he did include thoughts of others when he saw merit in their ways) and not the best way Space Marines can fight. Add to that the tendency of chapters not to deviate much from its teaching it is not hard to see why GW sees codex as a liability as well as a bon.

[NightrawenII]

To emphasise what Hrvat said.

 

To say *I'm codex adherent* is like saying *I'm made food only in cook-book-approved way."

Which doesn't make sence at all, because:

There are cook-books for Chinese, Japan, Hungary or whatever food.

Even the cook-books about the "same" food differ in size and recipes included.

And even the recipes could vary from book to book.

 

Now, tell me what is cook-book-approved way.. B)

[Legatus]

How could GW see codex as a weaknees? Well because it is, codex is a liability of sorts. It gives you the "correct" guidelines how to conduct a certain operation (...)

 

n short Codex is a great asset to any space marine, but it is just the "correct" way of fighting a war as seen by Guilliman(though he did include thoughts of others when he saw merit in their ways) and not the best way Space Marines can fight.

I think you are being a bit unfair there. Guilliman was certainly deciding that some doctrines were either not efficient or were beneath his ideals of conduct, so he was not including them among the doctrines a Codex Chapter should use. However, he would still have recognised that opposing forces would employ such doctrines, so those doctrines would be described and methods to combat them included none the less.

I think the notion that just because Guilliman would not fight in a certain way he would not be familiar with that way or not write about it is a faulty one, but unfortunately it is a notion a few GW or BL authors I can think of would go with. (Thankfully the "formerly GW, now BL" athor that immedately comes to mind has not written about that in his contributions to GW material.)

 

 

the only thing the enemy needs to outwit you is to replicate battle A into battle B and they will know how you will react and what will you do.

It is almost impossible to recreate the exact conditions of a battle a second time. If only the terrain, the weather, or the available forces are slightly off, the commander might decide on a different approach. Also, even if all those factors would be the same, the exact same forces, terrain and everything, there would still be a crucial difference: It is imensely important whether an opponent is encountered for the first time or whether the opponent is already known. Using the same approach under the same conditions against the same opponent would be a pretty basic mistake. So the only way to achieve that would not just be to somehow exactly replicate the conditions fo a previous battle between these two forces, it would also have to be hidden from the opponent who it was he was fighting. It would be quite an effort to pull all that off.

 

 

The Codex Astartes does not tell the commander A what to do to defeat opponent X. The Codex Astartes provides precedent and accounts that might have been similar and suggests which approach would be most efficient to achieve what kind of goal. Commander A does not need to know what manouvers his opponent will perform. But he will know which approach will generally be the most advantageous under the circumstances.

What you describe, on the other hand, is that if opponent X was to somehow optain a copy of the Codex Astartes or fight against commander A enough, he will know exactly what commander A will do and which manouvers he will perform. I dno't think that is a plausible scenario.

[Grey Mage]

In general Codex is a great thing but we know that the original no longer exists and the oldes copy is from M33, and is generaly thought to be Apocrphy of Skaros(this document also includes histories of some SM chapters like White Scars)

That would in fact be hilarious, as the SWs are supposed to have a copy that was given to Russ by Guilliman sitting in the bowels of the Fang as a chapter relic. *William Kings SW books*

 

The Irony of the SWs having perhaps the only copy of the original C:A is just to much.

[Gree]

In general Codex is a great thing but we know that the original no longer exists and the oldes copy is from M33, and is generaly thought to be Apocrphy of Skaros(this document also includes histories of some SM chapters like White Scars)

That would in fact be hilarious, as the SWs are supposed to have a copy that was given to Russ by Guilliman sitting in the bowels of the Fang as a chapter relic. *William Kings SW books*

 

The Irony of the SWs having perhaps the only copy of the original C:A is just to much.

 

The Ultramarines have the original handwritten copy in the Library of Ptolomy according to Chapter's Due.

[Grey Mage]

In general Codex is a great thing but we know that the original no longer exists and the oldes copy is from M33, and is generaly thought to be Apocrphy of Skaros(this document also includes histories of some SM chapters like White Scars)

That would in fact be hilarious, as the SWs are supposed to have a copy that was given to Russ by Guilliman sitting in the bowels of the Fang as a chapter relic. *William Kings SW books*

 

The Irony of the SWs having perhaps the only copy of the original C:A is just to much.

 

The Ultramarines have the original handwritten copy in the Library of Ptolomy according to Chapter's Due.

That makes alot more sense.

[Octavulg]

So no one knows what form the Codex originally took...

 

Except the Ultramarines, who have it.

 

There appears to be some inconsistency here...