Dorn's death

[khalifah]

^true words.

 

dont think i would have it any other way.

[Clewz]

@cosmo438

 

They are loyal to themselves and eternal war for mankind, the latter needs both chaos and loyalists to continue. He also knew the Golden Age of Peace was a dream that would never be reached, an opinion shared by loyalists as well, including Dorn's own first captain and that belief is not arrogance, it was wise. In Horus Rising, Sigismund made Loken look like an ignorant fool when he found out what "reality" the Luna Wolf saw for the future.

 

If anything, the race of mankind becoming that which The Emperor and his Primarchs set out to destroy on the Great Crusade is foolish. Religon, faith in False Gods, unfounded fear and awe, empty prayers, idolatry, these are all things to a being who spent his whole life fighting against it, simply anathema.

 

Had the Loyal Primarchs knew the future, I often wonder if they would have willingly chosen the course that they did, for in reality, it was just as damning as taking up arms against a brother.

 

Think your theory from a while ago says it best:

 

I'll throw up a post I did a few years ago telling my side of the story, replying to the intelligence of the Alpha Legion. *Spoiler*.

 

“It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all. Horus for what he will do, and you for what you will undo.”

 

 

Legion lied to you all.

 

Legion hid what it truly was, what it truly meant to tell you right in front of your hooded eyes, and yet all of you accepted what you read, accepted the lie you were meant to read I might add. The truth was just that, simple, plain, and hidden so perfectly in what you read, when you finish reading this, you’ll scratch your head and think “…. hmm… this makes sense….”.

 

Confused yet? Let me explain simply now.

 

It is often looked at that within the novel Legion, there are only 2 truth holders, that is to say, 2 bodies in which the audience can look to for unquestioned honesty without fault. 2 bodies that in a book of Lies and Deceit, are the only way for us to gauge what is real and what is not. These bodies are Dinas Chayne, and the Cabal itself. Chayne is ruled by unchangeable values where to lie is as alien as being able to sprout wings. To him, lies are a waste of time and have no value whatsoever for good or for ill. He is essentially un-corruptable. The Cabal, the actual council (not Grammaticus) is truthful in the sense that lying to humans, is a step towards giving them the benefit of equality on a galactic level… and since the Cabal despises the simplicity of man, they must be dealt with in a brutal, honest fashion. Lies are meant to deceive equals, and they certainly wouldn’t even speak to men unless it was to say something of worth. Plus, Abnett himself has on several occasions made it known to readers that these 2 character groups were the bearers of truth in his novel, it really isn’t rocket science for us to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Now, take the information overload that is Legion into your head, and see it from the eyes of those 2 sources alone.

 

You’ll find this: Dinas Chayne openly states that the Alpha Legion lie with every breath they speak to the human compliance force (and implies anyone outside the legion itself) and he is the only one to independently identify and discover Grammaticus, something nobody could do.

 

The Cabal give us the most important information. Understand that if you accept that the cabal is a truth holder, YOU MUST believe everything they say, not just the bits and pieces that make sense to you. You don’t get to pick and choose.

 

They give us the idea of an impending civil war that will allow chaos to enter real space and devour humanity. They also tell us that they have tried “recruiting” or talking to other legions over centuries (but due to flaws in the other legions, none could be successful in the undertaking) before Legion even takes place. Understand that a detail like this means that their outcome is truthful, but the players and the path are changeable. They tell you this, which means, when they offer the 2 outcomes of the Horus Heresy, and ask the Alpha Legion to choose their place, there is choice involved. The choice to make the path of the events your own, but end up in the one of the outcomes, it doesn’t have to be cut and dried.

 

The choice was:

 

1) Horus wins, in his self loathing he immolates man and extinguishes it as a vessel for chaos. The galaxy is allowed to live due to humanity’s sacrifice.

 

2) The Emperor wins, is placed within the golden throne and bring Horus down with him, stagnation occurs and the worlds are torn by war for thousands of years, allowing chaos to slowly triumph

 

The acuity followed this, and the future played out for them, they lived a lifetime in an instant.

 

You ALL think Alpharius/Omegon chose option 1, SOULY based on the principal that the Alpha Legion fought on Horus’ side. You are wrong.

 

The Primarchs never answered out loud.

 

The Primarchs chose the 2nd option. They chose against the prolonged life of the Xenos of the galaxy and chose the continual struggle against evil, even in the face of certain defeat. You Heard Me. The Alpha Legion chose the 2nd option. This is why.

 

What future does warhammer pan out to? Where did the Alpha Legion’s loyalty really lie? What makes up their very being? Control, loyalty to their own, intelligence, and above all, cunning.

 

Legion takes place 2 years before the Heresy, when The Emperor Himself still led the crusade. They are given this choice just after the triumph at Ullanor. The Alpha legion prepare to set up the biggest Con that the galaxy has ever known, the Death of Horus. It is something that only they have the ability, patience, inner loyalty, and scope to achieve.

 

“It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all. Horus for what he will do, and you for what you will undo.”

 

When the Cabal mentions this, it isn’t to be taken lightly. It is here that the Primarchs decide to Kill Horus. Or rather, to bring about the death of Horus. They knew that fighting on the side of the emperor, among his battle lines in pitched conflict with the Traitors would yield only death. If they fought for Horus, against their own brothers, only then could they secure the loyalty of the Warmaster, to be put in a position to do him the most harm, to take advantage in the hour of need when all hope was lost, and at the most opportune time.

 

They fought for the emperor, they would provide the emperor with the chance to lay Horus low and to end the conflict once and for all, even if it meant putting on a new face and sacrificing much to yield the greatest result. Such challenges and controlled deceit could only be handled by one legion.

 

To fight for the emperor, they fought for Horus, they turned on their brothers, and they bided their time. They waited, they planned, and they preformed well.

 

If any of you cannon guys out there know, to read all the editions rule books, army books, and fluff articles… is a lot to handle… and surprisingly enough, the articles tend to differ on the specifics, especially when seen from different accounts, both loyalist and traitor. Here is where you become a historian in a way, and decide for yourself the best course of interpretation on controversial material. To say that everything that was written about the Siege of Terra is presented in the same voice, demeanour, and outlook is foolish. It is a myth, there to be interpreted by us. This is my interpretation on over 2 decades worth of material.

 

Their moment came during the worst point of the Siege of Terra. With broken walls, and enclosing Traitors, the siege was in its last hour. We know that Horus’ ship lowered its shields. This is a fact, but as to why it was lowered is up to incredible debate. Some say he did it out of an emotional purpose, as a last chance, as a mock, you may look at it in any way, for this is one of the pivotal moments in the Heresy that is openly up to us to wonder about. To me, Horus doesn’t seem to show any remorse, regret or emotion until the moment he is about to strike down the Emperor. This is the first time, and because of that, it wasn’t him who lowered his shields… it was the Alpha Legion. They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus.

 

The only ones who could get close enough to the Warmaster, through personal means, or by agents, by operatives working the Con since before the Heresy even started. They planned it all. They had will, the means, the motive and the TIME to do something that you may say would be impossible. They waited YEARS for that moment, and they would have done nothing to screw it up.

 

They chose Option 2, they chose the Emperor, they chose to fight for the Utopian ideal still, and did it knowing that it would one day die out, but it was them that were in control of how it was to come about, and they would go down fighting. “The Alpha Legion is perfectly placed to control and direct it.”

 

And so it was, they chose loyalty by sacrifice, and gave humanity new life, even for a short while.

 

As for their own loyalties after the death of Horus and their complete inability to come back to the Imperium as protectors (Not by want to regain their old lives, but to uphold their great deed. “The greatest trick the Devil ever played was to make man believe he didn’t exist.”) no one will ever know what their true intentions are now.

 

As for Utopian ideals, yes, the Alpha Legion never believed in the ability to achieve an end goal they knew was impossible, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have still fought and struggled against it (much as they do when the book tells their story). It is all they could do, and it is what they were made to do. Pech and Thias tell you this. The choice I have surmised also follows this mindset, as they make their decision to uphold the Emperor’s work by continuing the un winnable fight against chaos. Their choice alone gives them control, and they never had anything against fighting for what the Emperor stood for, even if they thought it was un-achievable. They knew the bigger picture, and their choice reflected it, even if you don’t seem to agree with their sense of victory, as it was an internal victory as well as a death sentence.

 

“It was now at the very moment of his triumph that Horus made his one and only mistake. No one can say for sure why he did it, but Horus lowered the defence shields on his barge as this last cataclysmic battle begun. It was surmised that without the shields he was able to better witness the forthcoming destruction of the Emperor and His Imperium.”

 

In the pages you will see that Horus was more than capable of killing the Emperor and Final defenders without ever stepping foot on earth. He knew his gamble had succeeded not failed, because they were about to kill the only being in the Galaxy that Man could rally behind. The seige was to be won and broken in the hours this had happened, with more time than the hounding Loyalist reinforcements could make it there to matter.

 

Why did he do it full knowing the implications? Knowing he had victory in his grasp? There in lies the very likely chance that it wasn’t his choice, and that something outside his realm of control happened to turn off his shields in Horus’ hour of victory.

 

With full knowledge of what was going to happen, the Alpha legion was more than capable of setting up a network of spies, agents, and operatives within Horus’ fleet ever before Horus had his visions. The bulk of the Alpha Legion was elsewhere, but it is more than plausible to have dozens of operatives within the crew of Horus’ own ship, let alone their own representatives from their Marines, acting as liasons between the main Traitor force. The possibilities are endless, as again, they had the TIME to plant and insert and set up whatever they needed to succeed. Logistically it is sound.

 

 

They fought and chose to fight for the emperor. One of the 2 choices made by the cabal. Every prediction that followed, the death of Horus, the end of the physical emperor, the stagnation of the imperium, and the years of warfare all have come true. It makes perfect sense,.

 

This means 2 things (to mirror yours)

1) the cabal was right about their visions, as the choice and outcome match what is given.

2) the cabal told the truth

 

As for what you put stock in, the author told you that the givers of the acuity aren’t lying, and the result of the acuity is our current 40K universe.

 

There is no third choice, it is all in front of your eyes.

[Marshal Pentacost]

Oh I was unaware that phrases such as "Though many millennia have passed since Dorn's death..." "final moments" "supreme sacrifice" just meant it is believed he is dead...

 

I like the thery that he facked his death and stands to this day at the Emperors side, commanding the Custos in secret, awaiting the Emperors rebirth.

 

Isn't that the idea used in the Rise of the Tau fan fiction?

 

It's a common mistake, don't beat yourself up over it.

[calgar101]

What is a common mistake?

[Brother Tyler]

The common mistake is seeing the Index Astartes article say that Dorn's remains were found on the bridge of the ship, then seeing the statement about his skeletal hands being kept as sacred relics, and concluding that only Dorn's hands were recovered. Space Marine clearly described Dorn's body encased in amber, the Index Astartes article didn't say anything to counter that, and more recent material (page 27 of Codex: Space Marines, for example) clearly state that Dorn is dead.

 

The only piece of fluff we have that might be considered contradictory is the Games Day 99 UK Programme which gave us the history of the Crimson Fists (as known at that time). There is one statement about speculation that Dorn might be alive and leading the Adeptus Custodes. Whether or not the author of that piece knew about Dorn's death being given in Space Marine is unknown, but GW has clearly gone against that speculative statement with the more recent fluff (starting with the IA article and continuing with the present codex).

 

I'm a huge fan of Dorn, too, but I don't see how considering the Primarch of the 7th Legion to still be among the living is anything other than wishful thinking.

[Marshal Pentacost]

The only problem with that statement is that GW has stated tha Space Marine is no longer cannon, and it's fluf has largely been ret-conned. No further mention has been made regarding what remains were recovered except his hands.

 

Statements mentioning his death can just as easily be read as "his assumed death", allowing for the possability that he did in fact fake his death (weather by intent or seeing an unexpected oportunity). If he had sucsessfully faked his oun death, then naturaly all accounts of the event would read as if his death was a fact.

 

Further, there has not been anything relesed spicificly stating theat games day 99 UK program is not cannon.

[Astalon]

Just want to make it clear so i'm not misinterpreted as saying I believe or think Dorn should still be alive, I want to be neutral about those things. What I am saying/seeking is a better understanding of the circumstances of his deat, as the information so far seems flimsy at best and wasn't what I considered a usual way for a Primarch to be overcome.

[Candleshoes]

After quite a few reads and discussions, their loyalty to eternal war and the balance needed to continue it, seemed to eclipse the notion of loyalty to a side, including the Emperor.

 

Back on topic to Dorn's death, whether or not he is dead, story wise, it would be much more interesting if he was alive.

[calgar101]

Ah I have not read Space Marine so I did not know that, My quote earlier was taken directly from the 5th edition Space Marine codex anyways and that categorically states him as Dead.

[Brother Tyler]

The only problem with that statement is that GW has stated tha Space Marine is no longer cannon, and it's fluf has largely been ret-conned. No further mention has been made regarding what remains were recovered except his hands.

 

Statements mentioning his death can just as easily be read as "his assumed death", allowing for the possability that he did in fact fake his death (weather by intent or seeing an unexpected oportunity). If he had sucsessfully faked his oun death, then naturaly all accounts of the event would read as if his death was a fact.

 

Further, there has not been anything relesed spicificly stating theat games day 99 UK program is not cannon.

The problem with the first paragraph is that the only thing really ret-conned was the Squats. With only a few minor internal consistency errors (e.g., timeline), everything else in the book (as far as I can recall) has been incorporated into the current fluff. This includes the name of key Imperial Fists characters (Vladimir Pugh, Lo Chang, Franz Grenstein), the Imperial Fists recruiting from Necromunda, the Imperial Fists being based on a mobile space fortress (though it wasn't explicitly named "Phalanx" in the novel), the Imperial Fists using the Pain Glove, the Imperial Fists having honour duels, etc. The IA article even said that Dorn was dead and briefly described the use of the deceased Primarch's hands. All of the details on the Imperial Fists given in the Index Astartes article and later has been wholly consistent with Space Marine. Even the name of the Blood Drinker's homeworld was given in that book and retained in current fluff.

 

The problem with the second paragraph is that none of the descriptions of Dorn's fate really leave any question. Except for the one mention of speculation about his fate, every other mention has clearly portrayed Dorn as unequivocally dead.

 

Yes, the GD UK 99 Programme can be considered as cannon. Nothing in it contradicts anything else, not least because the only real mention of Dorn's fate has been in the context of speculation. It never mentioned this speculation in the context of skepticism about the Primarch's fate and can be chalked up as either ignorance on the part of the author or denial on the part of those that perpetuate the skepticism (much like those that believe that Elvis Presley still lives ).

 

Ultimately, GW has been extremely consistent in describing the fate of Dorn, with only one exception. That one exception was a programme, something that has less of a pedigree than anything else mentioned (including the woefully outdated Space Marine), and which has been contradicted at least twice by much more reliable sources (the IA article and the current codex).

 

So I'll revise my previous estimate - rumors about Dorn still being among the living can be chalked up to wishful thinking, misinterpretation, and rationalization (or perhaps any combination of two or all three).

 

As for how he died, I'd say it was pretty simple. He fought with his comrades, probably killed a lot of traitors, but eventually fell to weight of numbers. We don't have any detailed descriptions of the event, so we're left with the broad facts and lots of room for speculation. He fought and died, and his body was returned to the Phalanx, his hands being removed and kept for scrimshandering by the successive Chapter Masters of the Imperial Fists while the rest of his body was cased in amber (putting together all of the facts given in the various sources).

[AGPO]

@Servus Christi:

 

That sums up my view entirely, and shows why Dorn is my favourite Primarch. Dorn was the model officer - a great leader, a meticulous strategist, but also selfless and with an unsurpassed dedication to duty. We know Dorn died because in all but the latest slightly obscured versions it is made clear that the Fists took back the ship and recovered his body.

 

A tiny force of Fists under the leadership of their Primarch crippled an entire Black Crusade. How much did the Imperium throw against Abaddon in the Eye of Terror campaign again? Yeah. Exactly. Best legion bar none :)

[augustmanifesto]

where does GW say Space Marine is no longer cannon?

[Legatus]

Black Library says so in the description to the novel.

[augustmanifesto]

thank you :)

 

edit: wait, no, it doesn't say that at all on the BL blurb.

[Legatus]

"Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background (...)"

 

"Not conforming to current background" means "not canon".

[augustmanifesto]

"significant portions" is the operative referent, it does not say "the novel as a whole." So, crucially, that maintains the standing directive that the book is canon except where it contradicts later official publications, i.e. "current background," in which the later publications supersede Space Marine.

 

That's quite different than 'this is no longer canon.'

 

Importantly, though, that does mean that later comments on Dorn's death which leave it more open ended supersede those more certain comments found in Space Marine.

 

does that sound about right?

[Legatus]

"significant portions" is the operative referent, it does not say "the novel as a whole." So, crucially, that maintains the standing directive that the book is canon except where it contradicts later official publications

I would say it means you can take nothing from this book for granted, as you will not know which elements are intended to be canonical and which are not. GW will not give you a list describing that squats and zoats are no longer canon. They are not gone because newer background specifically states there are no zoats. They are gone because they are not described in contemporary Tyranid sources.

[Brother Tyler]

I'd say that it's safe to conclude that anything that is supported by current material is "canon", while those things that aren't supported by current material would be considered "non-canon". I listed the majority of things in both categories in one of my previous posts (though I later realized that the Slann Mage that is described in the book should have been added to the "non-canon" bits with the Squats :D ).

[augustmanifesto]

Obviously, new canon has always overuled old canon, so the information on the link merely applies something we already know along with the addendum "we left some stuff in for fun."

 

but the point remains: it isn't as if the book as been entirely wiped, e.g. Lexandro still exist, or existed (see forgeworld etched brass).

[Magic Dragon]

Just an idea but what if Dorn were captured by the chaos legions and even now is being harvested for geneseed to make new chaos marines...

[Bolt16]

How do we actually know it was the first Black Crusade. I was looking into this for fluff for my DIY Fists successor Chapter and began to think it more likely that it was the Third Black Crusade where he fell rather than the first........For the life of me can't remember why I thought this but when I get home tonight I will try and look it all up......Anyway just throwing this one out there!

[Badaboom]

How do we actually know it was the first Black Crusade.

 

Because I sincerely doubt Abbaddon would dare to attempt a serious attack on the Imperium with a Primarch on the defending side. I might be wrong, though, and that was the Third Black Crusade...

[Gree]

Index Astartes states that the Black Crusade occured shortly after the disappearance of Corax.

 

Soon after the disappearance of Corax, Primarch of the Raven Guard, the Imperial Fists were asked to help against a Black Crusade bludgeoning its way through the Cadian Gate.

 

It's not really stated but going from this statement it's implied that it was the First. The Third would have been a good time after M31.

[Bolt16]

So the first Black Crusade was in 781 M.31 and apparently the invasion into Cadia and the surrounding area was relatively successful with there being little hope of defeating it. Forces from all of the arms of the Imperium, including the Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus and Space Marines, fought and finally forced Abaddon back. The distance which the Crusade penetrated the Imperium forced the Imperium to respond by building defences on Cadia and a vast naval port at Belis Corona.

 

The second Black Crusade was in 597 M.32 which consisted primarily of a massive assault on the newly constructed bastion of Cadia. The attacks were no less powerful in numbers and strength, or in savage viciousness, but the Imperium had had time to prepare themselves for the oncoming attack. The apex of the fighting was the siege of Cadia. The siege lasted for five years of hell while the attackers suffered from frustration at the impervious defences that lay against them. After being held at Cadia the Chaos forces broke apart and Abaddon was forced to retreat back into the Eye of Terror.

 

Other than the fact that the Third Black Crusade took part in 909 M.32 I can't find any information about it.

 

Of the Black Crusade that is claimed to have bore witness to Dorn's final hours what references I have found suggest, Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. He directed his forces to carry out hit-and-run attacks on the Chaos fleet while it prepared buying time until reinforcements could arrive. Other sources I have come across often state that thanks largely to the work of Dorn and the Imperial Fists the Black Crusade was almost defeated before it ever really got going.

 

Now I realise before I said the Third Black Crusade but I meant the Second was getting confused (don't you hate not having all your reference material at work with you!!). So like I was saying I have a feeling that Dorn disappeared/Died (I favour this position) in the Second Black Crusade....the first just seems to have been too successful to have seen Dorn do so well against the Chaos fleet. Whereas the Second they barely make it past Cadia due to the siege....and possibly the actions of the Fists against the fleet? What do people think? Granted timelinewise this is late but we know Dorn was one of the last to die and the Age of the Imperium was after the Scouring with the immediate Age of rebirth between M.31 and M.32 I think it could fit.

 

Sorry to have hijacked this topic a bit (didn't mean to) but I kind of figure whether he is dead or not may also be impacted on when it all takes place.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

dorn, just like sanginius & ferrus is dead, He will only come back if the emperor wills it. Personaly i think the circumstances in his death are very very odd. Wonder what exactly happend