After reading the First Heretic

[Prot]

WARNING:

 

I'm not going to bother with spoiler box coding. Basically this whole post is a spoiler. So if you don't want to know anything... please stop here.

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Okay, hopefully that is enough warning, and we can draw the shades and reminisce about the book The First Heretic without the innocent eyes of those who haven't read it. It seems fitting to start conversation about this book in a conspiratorial setting.... :sweat:

 

Personally I have to admit, I haven't read any of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's books. (what a mouthful.... I'd probably change my name to Dembowski or some sort of hybrid and consider it a 'possessed' name. :lol: )

 

I really, really enjoyed his writing style. There are some things I just simply don't get. Some good, and some not so good moments. But a lot of this is just going to be opinion based obviously so take that for what it's worth.

 

First off I want to say I've noticed this disturbing trend that Aaron has managed to shake. It goes something like this; a traitor legion is set up to be all about friends, and sharing, and family, and then fighting the 'good' fight. Then half way through the book, some things take place. Brothers aren't all of the same mind anymore, and lines start getting drawn in the sand. Who's on whose side? It usually ends with a regret filled scene where brother fights brother for a belief the he/they don't share as a common bond anymore.

 

Thankfully Aaron shakes this in this novel. I applaud that as it was starting to get a tad too routine. But another disturbing trend has reared its ugly head; How is it that I am finding the first officers, or high ranking Captains appear to be -smarter- than their Primarchs? I've noticed this the past few books, but I try to come to grips with it.

 

Ahriman for instance, appears to be a lot more shrewd than Magnus. I really tried to tell myself that Magnus was just drunk from the power of the Ether and ignored common sense. It appears we have a very similar situation between Logar and Argel Tar. I don't understand it.

 

There is no doubt where we can see the obvious strengths of other legions, and to me the greatest strength of the Word Bearers is not -faith-, but rather manipulation. Not only of other Legions but of themselves, and Logar particularly. These guys are such manipulative *@$%@#%$s. I always knew Erebus was a shady dude, but what he does in this book is pretty twisted.

 

I find it an ironic twist that in this book we get to see the origin of the Chaplain, in the Word Bearers legion. We know that Chaplains aren't widely used until after the Heresy, and they are used in principle to keep the Emperor's word, and enforce it by word, or fist. But it appears the Word Bearers employ the use of Chaplains purely to manipulate the thinking of their own men, their Primarch, and more importantly all other Legions. Wow.

 

I had trouble not liking Argel Tar. I found myself finding an interesting internal conflict within him. I guess all 'good' bad guys are written this way. He's capable of many things.... it's too bad he wasn't with another legion. ^_^

 

Some of you said you read this book and wanted to play Word Bearers. I find that interesting and I wonder why? To me, I probably had a greater chance of playing them before I read this book. I mean the Primarch is portrayed as 'weak' (IE: the big brawl on Isstvan V). The Legion seems to be taking the word of Daemons.....

 

And this is the crux of what I don't get.... after Argel Tar is stuck in the Warp with Mr. Stinky-Snake body daemon, what exactly has these Word Bearers buying into this concept? I'm not sure I understand. The 'truth'? The truth is kind of described as an ugly truth? The truth was denied by the eldar and they all died - their souls being sucked into the warp, and the birth of Slaanesh.... what is the alternative? You walk around waiting for a Daemon to posses your mind and body? Why would anyone sign up for this? What did I miss? Was there supposed to be a sort of flexible co-existence that I missed? A 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' sort of thing?

 

Don't get me wrong, I thought the book was awesome. I think Aaron was super lucky to go from a 'new guy' to writing a Heresy novel that gets to explain.... let's see:

 

-Chaos

-Primarch birth (yes I know we have seen evidence of this from WAY back but still)

-Several Primarchs wailing on each other

-the Isstvan V massacre. (Fulgrim just touched on this)

-Custodes (and no, they aren't just golden roosters running around with lightsabers)

-The brow-beating of Logar on the 'perfect' planet.

 

The list goes on. That's pretty darn impressive to get that responsibility. I honestly had trouble putting the book down. I'm not what my teachers would call 'a strong reader' but I think I finished this in 3 days. As much as I love one or two other of the Heresy novels, this one is easily one of the most... satisfying on several levels.

 

I'd like to end with some of my favourite thoughts/observations:

 

- Some parents know how to handle their kids. Some kids you can go the hard road with and they will learn. Some kids you have to calmly explain and guide them through their errors. The Emperor, as a parent, sucks.

 

- Chaos? I still wanted to feel like there was -more- in it for Logar to turn his back on dad. This still feels like a bit of an empty bargain. (?) I was hoping for more here.

 

- Custodes. I never knew they were genetical test tube types. I didn't know they were this far up the ladder physically sitting somewhere between Primarch and Astartes. Their appearance is very cool. But their lack of personality (while part of the story line) kind of reminds me the way everyone wrote marine fiction 10+ years ago. Still, they're cool enough to pull off red feather plumes sticking out of a gold helmet.... that's pretty powerful stuff.

 

- The traitor Primarchs.... Interesting stuff that meeting over Isstvan. It appears not everyone is buddies. I guess that was my delusional preconception. It's obvious to me how self serving these guys are. The Night Lords (for their minute appearance) seem to almost reject the 'faith' part of this.

 

- Best scene? Easy.... envisioning Lorgar pounding the bejesus out of Guilleman... right across the chest, cracking his armour. Sweet. Take that boyscout!!

 

- Unexpectedly cool: Corax. This dude is deadly. I have a whole new vision of this guy in my head.... deadly steel bladed jet pack? Cool. I'd love to draw this guy.

 

- The Chaos tie in with all of mankinds 'superstitions' was clever. We've seen it done before, but this was a clever tie in to make the whole thing just a bit more believable.

 

- Kor Pharon and Erebus.... easily still two of my most despised 40K characters.

 

- Iron Warriors. This was a pleasant surprise! It was short but sweet.

 

I could go on and on. I'd love to hear what others thought.

[Hyaenidae]

- Some parents know how to handle their kids. Some kids you can go the hard road with and they will learn. Some kids you have to calmly explain and guide them through their errors. The Emperor, as a parent, sucks.

 

Hah, hope you don't mind, but I'm making that my sig!

 

I'd say you got most of the cool stuff covered, except 1 thing. Magnus and Lorgar chatting about the lost legions. Damn, that's the closest the BL has ever come to explaining what the hell happened to them. I know that GW hasn't wanted to reveal why they're gone for years, but I think they might. They might as well.

[Prot]

Go for the quote. It's a simple truth... the guy's parenting skills could fill a season of Jerry Springer episodes.

 

From very old resources, I recall why the Emperor is doing what he is doing on Terra. BUT I have never figured out why he won't tell his family.

 

I work with someone... who thinks the Emperor is a Chaos god. Personally I remember the reference to the 'star child'. And a group that exist to kill him in his throne because they believe mankind would be better off if he were dead (for reasons beyond the scope of this topic). But nowhere in there can I really figure out why the big E won't tell his sons of the 'master plan'.

 

After I read a past book where Horus is felled by a daemonic blade (the whole sequence of events put in motion by Word Bearers) made me realize that Horus is most likely just a puppet. And you've got Word Bearers pulling the strings.

 

I guess that's why I could never play Black Legion, but I don't know if my belief here is true or not. Now that I think of it, isn't there reference in one of the books that Chaos wanted Magnus first, but thought him too powerful? Or too... insightful in the warp?

 

After reading this book, I thought it would be really cool if the author did some Raven Guard, or even Iron Warrior stuff.

 

Magnus and Lorgar chatting about the lost legions. Damn, that's the closest the BL has ever come to explaining what the hell happened to them.

 

Yes that is very cool. I forgot to mention that. If I can recall, the reason I (more than ever) believe one of them is the Blood Ravens is a reference in A Thousand Sons.

[Brother Nathan]

sounds like the book is a good read. on the emperor thing. ever heard the theory that theres something else also hapening? all the primarchs seem distant from everyone but their father and their brothers, and even then... and that some seem to have been in contact with him long beore they were found (sanguinus and the thousand sos dude) one of my favoured theorys is that the emperor is actually the eldar forge god dude. and that the herasy was the only way to protect the emperium from a greater threat from elsewhere and was orchestrated by the emperor. cause by the sounds of itsome of he traitors arnt as traitorus as we think, look at the thousand sons. and if ive heard right isnt one of the primarchs souls trapped somewhere and is possesed? regardless, they were designed o last and were all around for a long while(bar the 2, one of which i believe to be the legion of the dammed, and if so their primarch would look awsome, and explain why they were 'wiped' out)and they all died, fleed etc in a relatively short space of time. maby there is more to the primarchs than what we are still seeing? after all they arnt really human so wont come accross as youd think in any way...

[Gree]

Some of you said you read this book and wanted to play Word Bearers. I find that interesting and I wonder why? To me, I probably had a greater chance of playing them before I read this book. I mean the Primarch is portrayed as 'weak' (IE: the big brawl on Isstvan V).

 

You don't need a Primarch to be this super-awesome badass fighter to be interesting. Lorgar was interesting because he had his own personality outside of the generic military gung-ho warlord. He was almost symphathetic at points. I definitely liked Lorgar after this book.

 

Of course I still am a die-hard Black Legion player.

 

And this is the crux of what I don't get.... after Argel Tar is stuck in the Warp with Mr. Stinky-Snake body daemon, what exactly has these Word Bearers buying into this concept? I'm not sure I understand. The 'truth'? The truth is kind of described as an ugly truth? The truth was denied by the eldar and they all died - their souls being sucked into the warp, and the birth of Slaanesh.... what is the alternative? You walk around waiting for a Daemon to posses your mind and body? Why would anyone sign up for this? What did I miss? Was there supposed to be a sort of flexible co-existence that I missed? A 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' sort of thing?

 

Why not? Possesed are awesome.

 

But anyway, the Possesed are only a small portion of the Word Bearers. The Word Bearers looked at the Imperium after the Emperor's chatisment of them, decided it was built on lies and weakness, and went for the truth. The truth may have been ugly, but at least they were'nt being lied to anymore.

 

- Best scene? Easy.... envisioning Lorgar pounding the bejesus out of Guilleman... right across the chest, cracking his armour. Sweet. Take that boyscout!!

 

Oh? You mean Guilliman calmly getting up and calling Lorgar out on his temper tantrum? Yeah, that was cool for me. Real badass.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Loved the book, but I didn't think it was as strong as ADB's Night Lords material. My favorite scene by far was the chastisement scene in the beginning, though everything that happened over or on the surface of Istvaan III was just neat-o.

 

I was worried that the character of "the Blessed Lady" was going to irritate me, but she is not over stated and I think she highlighted the sympathetic side of the Word Bearers. I also had some doubts about the Remembrancers, because at first it was looking to be a straight rehash of the Remembrancers from the first three books. That they also weren't over played but still integral to the story was good planning on ADB's part, I think. After the Fulgrim book I was sort of done with the lives and times of Fleet Remembrancers.

 

The smacking Guilleman thing has been mentioned. I think it's something many Chaos players liked to read, but, as was pointed out by Gree it wasn't "fan service", it portrayed both Primarchs in what I think was a realistic light. Same goes for the Corax versus Lorgar fight. Lorgar was set up for that fight for pretty much the entire book, and it wasn't a surprise when another Primarch pummeled him handily.

 

Kor Phaeron is a worm, and that comes across excellently.

 

All that being said, I was sort of disappointed with the revelations part of the story where Argel Tal and his crew are sent into the Eye of Terror. Out of the entire book of that part felt different somehow. That and the goings on at Cadia. I also thought the device where Lorgar is transcribing Argel Tal's experience was a little awkward. The scene where the daemon kills Argel Tal was great, however.

 

Another great scene: when Argel Tal initiates the betrayal on the surface of Istvaan with flashbacks and thoughts of regrets and the words "I'm sorry". That moment with a "throwaway character" was a lot stronger than the showdown between Argel Tal and the Custodes he had called a brother for forty years. Not sure how that happened, but maybe it was just anticlimactic after the Istvaan III battle.

 

Again, I loved the book!

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Magnus and Lorgar chatting about the lost legions. Damn, that's the closest the BL has ever come to explaining what the hell happened to them.

 

Yes that is very cool. I forgot to mention that. If I can recall, the reason I (more than ever) believe one of them is the Blood Ravens is a reference in A Thousand Sons.

 

Yeah, the Horus Heresy has explained a lot. And simply because they were talking about them made it very interesting, one of the most interesting scenes in the book.

 

The few major complaints I have against it are thus -

 

Xaphen. I felt like he was more of a plot tool than a character. Mostly because he was a complete tool. I felt like when he died, it was there to appease the readers, to give them satisfaction at seeing what was finally going to happen. IMHO, it would have been better had he lived, at least for the book. It would have made the Word Bearers's transistion from searching for truth to worshiping Chaos more... complete.

 

The imagist died. He was the single most interesting and human character in BL, at least where 40k is concerned. You could actually relate to him, and found yourself actually interested in his fate. And then he died. Why? Again, for the book it would have been betterif he had lived, and been shown the truth through the Word Bearers, or perhaps through the Blessed Lady.

 

Argel Tal... I could tell the author wrote him in the mindset he wouldn't resist, he would accept his primarchs plans because that's what a captain would do. He had some conflict, yes, but it whould have been more... with a chance of him actually disobeying his orders and joining the Custodes.

 

Speaking the Custodes, they were incredibly well done. The insight of lions vs wolves was brilliant, and the Custode that killed Xaphen with his final actions gained a very loyal follower when he did so. I found myself actually sad that he had to die as well, but unlike the other deaths it benefitted the story and captured the essence of the Custodes - fearless, yet highly individual warriors who know what they're doing and do whatever that is with complete confidence. My hat's off to you, ADB.

 

There were other things I really liked - the discovery that Cadia was Cadia was one of them - and overall it was a very good book, and I am proud to have my favored legion portrayed as well as they were. Even if Xaphen was a tool. :)

[Prot]

And this is the crux of what I don't get.... after Argel Tar is stuck in the Warp with Mr. Stinky-Snake body daemon, what exactly has these Word Bearers buying into this concept? I'm not sure I understand. The 'truth'? The truth is kind of described as an ugly truth? The truth was denied by the eldar and they all died - their souls being sucked into the warp, and the birth of Slaanesh.... what is the alternative? You walk around waiting for a Daemon to posses your mind and body? Why would anyone sign up for this? What did I miss? Was there supposed to be a sort of flexible co-existence that I missed? A 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' sort of thing?

 

But anyway, the Possesed are only a small portion of the Word Bearers. The Word Bearers looked at the Imperium after the Emperor's chatisment of them, decided it was built on lies and weakness, and went for the truth. The truth may have been ugly, but at least they were'nt being lied to anymore.

 

I guess what I meant was, I thought there was more to it. On the surface, the warp is an entity, or even a dimension that daemons manifest and want to raise hell. I thought when we got to this part of the story there would be more to... 'Chaos' and the Warp.

 

 

The smacking Guilleman thing has been mentioned. I think it's something many Chaos players liked to read, but, as was pointed out by Gree it wasn't "fan service", it portrayed both Primarchs in what I think was a realistic light. Same goes for the Corax versus Lorgar fight. Lorgar was set up for that fight for pretty much the entire book, and it wasn't a surprise when another Primarch pummeled him handily.

 

Kor Phaeron is a worm, and that comes across excellently.

 

 

Yes, and yes. BUT I really did not think Lorgar was going to get his arse handed to him. I really thought he would be emboldened with some chaotic force. But no, they kind of left him hanging there, didn't they? Things could have went terribly wrong there if Nightlord dude hadn't intervened.

 

This leads me to something else interesting.... The fortelling of Argel's death was wrong. The deamon within him thought it would end with Corax, but it didn't. This tells us perhaps not all is set in stone.

 

Part of what disappoints me in Lorgar is he is not as respected, or as decisive as I thought he was. I mean there are points where Erebus and Kor Phaeron are rolling their eyes in disgust at the primarch for waffling like a politician on decisions. For second I thought Kor Pharon was going to call him a 'baby' and slap him or something.

 

But this also tells me this indecisiveness, and lack of respect outside of his legion REQUIRED Chaos to go after Horus, the charismatic one! They just couldn't take a direct route to Horus.

 

Another great scene: when Argel Tal initiates the betrayal on the surface of Istvaan with flashbacks and thoughts of regrets and the words "I'm sorry". That moment with a "throwaway character" was a lot stronger than the showdown between Argel Tal and the Custodes he had called a brother for forty years. Not sure how that happened, but maybe it was just anticlimactic after the Istvaan III battle.

 

Again, I loved the book!

 

Yes, very good points. And I agree. It was a strong scene where Argel thinks of his birth family, and his closing moments with his family. He is still full of conflict, and it is a strong scene. And I also agree that I thought this would carry forward to a larger degree with Aquillion (?) the Custodes 'brother' of some 40 years. Actually it is Aquillion that is more emotional than ever before in the book.... almost trying to reach out to Argel, through the monster he has become. Of course Aquillion is ready to take him down regardless, but the lack of a real scene there was kind of a let down. Aquillion died quickly and with little hesitation from Argel.

 

Now you could say he was pissed off because the blessed lady was killed, but there is another bond here.... because I looked at Aquillion AS a mirror to Argel's soul... a -direct- contrast to the daemon possessing him. I thought the character was worth more than a head snapping, slam dunk.

 

 

There were other things I really liked - the discovery that Cadia was Cadia was one of them - and overall it was a very good book, and I am proud to have my favored legion portrayed as well as they were. Even if Xaphen was a tool. :D

 

Oh yea. I can't believe I almost forgot that. The Cadia revelation is very cool.

[Ulfast]

I think this is one of the best sof ar in the hours Heresy series. It was wonderful written with many intersting facts and plots about the heresy.

 

Greatest moment was when the emperor more or less crushed his son in the begining with humilating him and killing his people. That was very strong and you could really feel that this was the begining of something bad. To rub someone of faith without giving some new hope was just cruel and unfair for him to do. Lorgar and his warriors had no chance after that. Something would have happend, if not chaos, then perhaps drugs, or other things like lazyniess etc.

 

Something I also like is that Lorgar was indeed not a warrior but still didn´t back down when it came ot a fight. I dislike that everyone of the primach was this uberwarrior. Nice to see that one was actually more intersted in other stuff like politics, faith etc. My respect for Lorgar grew (and the writer).

 

As a side note I still think it´s bad that almost no primarch (on the traitor side) actually made his own chose. Everyone (and not in this book only) is painted that they fell because of random marinefellow that was closer to chaos then themself. Why couldnt a primach chose by himself? Of course not everyone has been potraited yet but so far it seems only Angron did a chose by himself.

[Astalon]

Got to say I agree with the original sentiment that Lorgar's portrayal would definitely stop me playing Word Bearers. Yes he has different strengths to the other Primarchs, but I fundamentally disagree about it being some how 'shallow' if they're all uber-warriors, that is exactly what the Emperor created them for, their very raison d'etre (sp?) is to be uber generals and warriors, and in that Lorgar failed. The interest and differentiation in Primarchs comes in how they deliver this fundamental meaning of their existence.

[A D-B]

The imagist died. He was the single most interesting and human character in BL, at least where 40k is concerned. You could actually relate to him, and found yourself actually interested in his fate. And then he died.

 

Ishaq? I don't recall killing him off - I wanted his fate to be more in doubt (like, no one's supposed to know what happened to him after he speaks to the Custodians), because - unlike most Traitor fleets - the Word Bearers still have their remembrancers during the Heresy itself. They want their "glory" recorded, and the Word Bearer remembrancers are the foundation of the bajillions of cultists recruited over the course of the war.

 

If Ishaq survived, then he'll be there at Calth. The First Heretic is more like Horus Rising in the sense of continuing characters than, say, Legion or Mechanicum. It's the beginning of the story, not the whole thing.

 

All that being said, I was sort of disappointed with the revelations part of the story where Argel Tal and his crew are sent into the Eye of Terror. Out of the entire book of that part felt different somehow. That and the goings on at Cadia. I also thought the device where Lorgar is transcribing Argel Tal's experience was a little awkward. The scene where the daemon kills Argel Tal was great, however.

 

Yeah, that's a weird part. Most of the reviews/feedback I've got have painted that as the best bit, but I completely understand why it's not to everyone's tastes.

 

I guess what I meant was, I thought there was more to it. On the surface, the warp is an entity, or even a dimension that daemons manifest and want to raise hell. I thought when we got to this part of the story there would be more to... 'Chaos' and the Warp.

 

Utimately, Argel Tal saw only a fraction of what Lorgar saw. Lorgar went in afterwards, alone, and stayed there for an indeterminate amount of time.

 

I think there should be a great deal of respectful distance where the primarchs and the Emperor are concerned. I loved the idea of an Astartes seeing a glimpse into the truth behind the universe - enough to tempt his primarch father to go in and see for himself - but without actually being privy to everything the primarch sees and learns. I always reckon it should be about piecing the picture together from compelling evidence, rather than finding out everything a primarch gets to learn by having it handed out.

 

The First Heretic was almost like Part 1 of a trilogy rather than a standalone in the series. It's still the very beginning of the Word Bearers' (and Lorgar's) true fall. Like I said, it's Horus Rising, not Mechanicum.

 

 

Something I also like is that Lorgar was indeed not a warrior but still didn´t back down when it came ot a fight. I dislike that everyone of the primach was this uberwarrior. Nice to see that one was actually more intersted in other stuff like politics, faith etc. My respect for Lorgar grew (and the writer).

 

Thanks, dude. I liked that, too.

 

There's occasionally an undertone of disgust among some fans for characters who are anything less than absolute combat ninja badasses. They're entitled to their opinions, natch, but that attitude always makes my skin crawl. You can have a deep/realistic/courageous/interesting/whatever character without them always being able to beat everyone else up. I mean, it's not Blade, for Christ's sake. Give it some depth.

[A D-B]

Got to say I agree with the original sentiment that Lorgar's portrayal would definitely stop me playing Word Bearers. Yes he has different strengths to the other Primarchs, but I fundamentally disagree about it being some how 'shallow' if they're all uber-warriors, that is exactly what the Emperor created them for, their very raison d'etre (sp?) is to be uber generals and warriors, and in that Lorgar failed. The interest and differentiation in Primarchs comes in how they deliver this fundamental meaning of their existence.

 

Lorgar failed to live up to what the Emperor wanted, and that's pretty much his whole shtick. I don't find him less compelling that he was a philosopher and a visionary: he wanted to be an archpriest, not a warlord. While his religious fanatcism leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, his choice not (and perhaps even inability) to live up to the Emperor's ideal is what makes him more interesting to me. The one son who never wanted to be a soldier. I dig that.

 

Historically, armies have been led, commanded, or ordered to war by kings, queens, generals and popes who never took to the battlefield themselves - or who marched with the army and yet didn't possess the best stat line in a codex. 40K fiction sometimes has a very narrow view of what makes a good commander: if they're not Leonidas, they're somehow failures. Lorgar was actually a fairly excellent general and an incredible warrior - he just hated the thought that it was all he could do with his existence. Just because he wasn't the close combat badass his brothers were doesn't diminish him in any way at all.

 

EDIT: Some fans are into 40K fiction so their faction "wins" and "is the best". I get that - it's prevalent among a fair few posters on various forums and you see it at signings, too. But that's never interested me much. I don't read about the factions I like to see them be better than other factions, I read about them to see them in realistic and interesting situations. I'll never get into an argument about why the primarch of [insert Favourite Chapter] is objectively better than [Your Favourite Chapter], because I couldn't care less. (I'm not addressing you specifically, Astalon, just branching out from your point.) I'd never not play a faction just because their primarch wasn't the warrior his brothers were, or was somehow "weaker". But I totally get that some people do care. The forum arguments over "HAHAHAHA, you only won at Prospero because we let you" and "We won! Russ kicked Magnus's ass!" are testament to some people's mindsets where all this is concerned. No one's wrong and no one's right; I just know which mindset I identify with as a fan and an author.

[Prot]

I guess what I meant was, I thought there was more to it. On the surface, the warp is an entity, or even a dimension that daemons manifest and want to raise hell. I thought when we got to this part of the story there would be more to... 'Chaos' and the Warp.

 

Utimately, Argel Tal saw only a fraction of what Lorgar saw. Lorgar went in afterwards, alone, and stayed there for an indeterminate amount of time.

 

I think there should be a great deal of respectful distance where the primarchs and the Emperor are concerned. I loved the idea of an Astartes seeing a glimpse into the truth behind the universe - enough to tempt his primarch father to go in and see for himself - but without actually being privy to everything the primarch sees and learns. I always reckon it should be about piecing the picture together from compelling evidence, rather than finding out everything a primarch gets to learn by having it handed out.

 

The First Heretic was almost like Part 1 of a trilogy rather than a standalone in the series. It's still the very beginning of the Word Bearers' (and Lorgar's) true fall. Like I said, it's Horus Rising, not Mechanicum.

 

Fair enough. I do realize in hindsight it is very brief, but there is mention of Lorgar going in there. I am surprised none of it is revealed though. I mean eventually.... 20, 25 books in, we (the reader) are going to want more. I think we are.... 20-23 books in to this?

 

I keep saying that I think this would make for a movie that -could-, potentially have the epicness of a Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. The development of this background is really impressive at this point.

 

Back to Lorgar. I keep seeing it in a very simple manner:

 

 

Lorgar might have been tremendously hurt by his father's choice of discipline, but this happens to all of us. The weakness I see in Lorgar is he seems to need something, anything... to believe in. And when the Emperor takes it away, Lorgar seems lost without that form of worship or meaning in his life. He throws everything he knows away to persue something that appears to be the height of evil.

 

Maybe this is why I followed Iron Warriors, and Night Lords so much more... I just don't see them getting sucked into the snake oil business as Lorgar seems to have.

 

 

Got to say I agree with the original sentiment that Lorgar's portrayal would definitely stop me playing Word Bearers. Yes he has different strengths to the other Primarchs, but I fundamentally disagree about it being some how 'shallow' if they're all uber-warriors, that is exactly what the Emperor created them for, their very raison d'etre (sp?) is to be uber generals and warriors, and in that Lorgar failed. The interest and differentiation in Primarchs comes in how they deliver this fundamental meaning of their existence.

 

Lorgar failed to live up to what the Emperor wanted, and that's pretty much his whole shtick. I don't find him less compelling that he was a philosopher and a visionary: he wanted to be an archpriest, not a warlord. While his religious fanatcism leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, his choice not (and perhaps even inability) to live up to the Emperor's ideal is what makes him more interesting to me. The one son who never wanted to be a soldier. I dig that.

 

Historically, armies have been led, commanded, or ordered to war by kings, queens, generals and popes who never took to the battlefield themselves - or who marched with the army and yet didn't possess the best stat line in a codex. 40K fiction sometimes has a very narrow view of what makes a good commander: if they're not Leonidas, they're somehow failures. Lorgar was actually a fairly excellent general and an incredible warrior - he just hated the thought that it was all he could do with his existence. Just because he wasn't the close combat badass his brothers were doesn't diminish him in any way at all.

 

Sure, I can completely agree with that. I understand that history shows us many great generals..... from Hannibal to whomever... that were leaders, and strategists, but probably couldn't raise a bronze sword to defend themselves. BUT... how many of these strong characters would be swayed by the likes of Erebus and Kor Pharon? (Plus we are talking about a 'super' human here. Not an Astartes, but even a greater being.)

 

Those two worms seem to be running the show? Am I wrong? As I said in my first post, I think the Word Bearers true forte is their ability to manipulate. Unfortunately they seem to manipulate each other, as much as their enemies/allies! Maybe that's in a nutshell what bugs me about Lorgar. (on top of his unending need to worship) Can't he see these guys are steering him to their own end?

 

(P.S. see Ciaphas Caine novels (Sandy Mitchell?) for some great leadership from a less than stellar warrior. ;) )

 

BTW: it is appreciated that you give us your 2 cents on what we are seeing/reading. It's interesting for hearing why you went the way you chose to on certain subjects.

 

As an aside, did writing this book give you any motivation or desire to write a different astartes book? If so, what tempts you?

[Astalon]

Got to say I agree with the original sentiment that Lorgar's portrayal would definitely stop me playing Word Bearers. Yes he has different strengths to the other Primarchs, but I fundamentally disagree about it being some how 'shallow' if they're all uber-warriors, that is exactly what the Emperor created them for, their very raison d'etre (sp?) is to be uber generals and warriors, and in that Lorgar failed. The interest and differentiation in Primarchs comes in how they deliver this fundamental meaning of their existence.

 

Lorgar failed to live up to what the Emperor wanted, and that's pretty much his whole shtick. I don't find him less compelling that he was a philosopher and a visionary: he wanted to be an archpriest, not a warlord. While his religious fanatcism leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, his choice not (and perhaps even inability) to live up to the Emperor's ideal is what makes him more interesting to me. The one son who never wanted to be a soldier. I dig that.

 

Historically, armies have been led, commanded, or ordered to war by kings, queens, generals and popes who never took to the battlefield themselves - or who marched with the army and yet didn't possess the best stat line in a codex. 40K fiction sometimes has a very narrow view of what makes a good commander: if they're not Leonidas, they're somehow failures. Lorgar was actually a fairly excellent general and an incredible warrior - he just hated the thought that it was all he could do with his existence. Just because he wasn't the close combat badass his brothers were doesn't diminish him in any way at all.

 

EDIT: Some fans are into 40K fiction so their faction "wins" and "is the best". I get that - it's prevalent among a fair few posters on various forums and you see it at signings, too. But that's never interested me much. I don't read about the factions I like to see them be better than other factions, I read about them to see them in realistic and interesting situations. I'll never get into an argument about why the primarch of [insert Favourite Chapter] is objectively better than [Your Favourite Chapter], because I couldn't care less. (I'm not addressing you specifically, Astalon, just branching out from your point.) I'd never not play a faction just because their primarch wasn't the warrior his brothers were, or was somehow "weaker". But I totally get that some people do care. The forum arguments over "HAHAHAHA, you only won at Prospero because we let you" and "We won! Russ kicked Magnus's ass!" are testament to some people's mindsets where all this is concerned. No one's wrong and no one's right; I just know which mindset I identify with as a fan and an author.

 

I appreciate your comments and edit to the effect you are not characterising my position as one which simply wants to play "the best thing".

 

I think the idea i'm trying to project is kind of an Aristotelian one, in the sense of something seeking excellence in expressing the nature of its kind to the greatest degree (my reading of aristotle anyway), in the sense of a dog being characterised as an excellent dog by its "dog-ness". So what I'm getting at is that I'm happy for Kor Phaeron to be the general who never gets his hands dirty, as it were, but that I feel disappointed and slightly pity Lorgar for his inability to express his "primarch-ness". But such is the skill of your characterisation that I am made to feel that perculiar set of feelings towards a being as great as Lorgar. I'd appreciate your further thoughts on this, if any, I suppose I agree with the poster below me - Lorgar is coddled by a mere half Astartes!

[A D-B]

I appreciate your comments and edit to the effect you are not characterising my position as one which simply wants to play "the best thing".

 

Naw, definitely not, dude. I was just spinning off on a tangential whim - definitely wasn't a criticism of your point.

 

My lunch break just ended, and if I don't finish this Dark Angel story by sunset I'm a dead man, but I'll reply properly later.

[Legatus]

(P.S. see Ciaphas Caine novels (Sandy Mitchell?) for some great leadership from a less than stellar warrior. msn-wink.gif )

IIRC Cain was quite the swordsman. ;)

[caboosebe]

You are all overlooking the fact that even though Lorgar was "blamed" for haven a falls faith in the Emperor, the post-Heresy Imperium survives because of the same faith Lorgar had.

I for one liked the fact that Lorgar doesn't like to fight. If all Primarchs would be combat ninja badasses (great quote A D-B ) it would be boring. Might aswell make servitors out of them who can't feel emotions but just do as they are told.

 

In MY OPINION, the book was one of the better ones, explaining a lot we didn't know, the story was well writen and the feelings of the characters really showed well. At the same time it left many things unexplained, leaving the gap for personal thoughts and spiculations (one of the core things that keeps Warhammer 40K going)

 

Unlike the Iron Warriors, who just went traitor because they wanted to go traitor, the Word Bearers accually saw all the lies The Emperor told his 'minions' to keep the Imperium together. Yes, yes, it was all for the greater good, but still I share the hate the Word Bearers showed for the Emperor for just saying those lies.

 

The book also mentions that Lorgar already was trying to make people understand that the Emperor was a god for several years (maybe decades), yet still he only stops Lorgar now, after so long, and how? By humiliating him in front of his Legion and brother. Yes I can understand the argument: a parent has to be hard on his child, but this isn't 'being hard' in the way people mean it.

 

 

At the opinion that Horus was a mere puppet of the Word Bearers: yes at first, but after fully being embraced by Chaos, things turned around (read Nemesis)

At the opinion of making a movie: Personally; no, don't do it. When making movies, it narrows down the fantasy people can have of how things went and how things looked like. A book is still a personal view of the reader, while movies is a public view. Also, warhammer 40K is too large to fit in even a dozen movies, to much info, wich they have too scale down and leave a lot of things out if they want to make a movie.

 

 

But again, this is all a personal view on the facts.

Keep in mind that some people just don't like some chararistics of Legions/Primarchs/... while other people do. (I totally hate Space Wolves and Dark Angels because of their hypocrisy, but I can understand some people love them)

Still, would like to thank A D-B (while you're online) for the great novel

 

(edit: typos)

[Prot]

(P.S. see Ciaphas Caine novels (Sandy Mitchell?) for some great leadership from a less than stellar warrior. msn-wink.gif )

IIRC Cain was quite the swordsman. :o

 

Ah you got me there. He was indeed. I guess I just keep seeing him as a coward... with incredible survival instincts. :P

 

As far as the who is better argument? I'm not sure why people would engage in any argument of that nature considering we are talking about a future history that we already know the ending to.

 

I am attracted to tacticians over personal power. For instance as much as I enjoy employing a squad of World Eaters, I much prefer Perturabo... always have. Same goes for guys like Alpharius. I don't know if I've ever read of Perturabo exercising personal glory on the battlefield, but I sure enjoy reading about their 'style' of warfare. (Corax was mighty impressive though).

 

I've always wanted to take a shot at Emperor's Children but usually falter. Their's is a strange motivation.

 

Lorgar isn't my cup of tea. That's what I got from the story, but I know some people that absolutely love this stuff; the manipulation, the deception, etc. (but this might go back to what A D-B said about army loyalty since they are Word Bearer players. I've played just about everything at one point myself, so I am probably a little more open.)

 

Anyway A D-B, you managed to give us a lot to talk about. I probably still hold onto the first novel as my favorite. Just because of the comradery of the Sons of Horus, and the innocence of the times. And Abnett's way of weaving that tale. But this has become my second favourite of the series, and I read the little snippit from your first Night Lords novel.... (contained in the novel) and I will definitely order the series (especially curious about Red Corsairs/portrayal of Huron.)

 

[ One of my fears is re-starting my Night Lords project. Yes, I am that weak minded. Many times some good fiction steers me in a direction or project I can never finish. Gods help me. ]

[Gree]

(P.S. see Ciaphas Caine novels (Sandy Mitchell?) for some great leadership from a less than stellar warrior. :o )

 

Actually Cain is noted to be a great warrior. He is noted to be an excellent swordsman in the novels by Inquisitor Vai (Who knows his reputation is overblown) and he actually holds his own against a Berzerker in close combat long enough for backup to arrive. In close quarters he generally goes through cultists like a hot knife through butter. Cain calls himself a coward, but he has excellent fighting skills regardless.

 

EDIT; Ninja'd by Legatus. Never mind.

[Captain Tezdal]

My favorite part of the novel was most def the Istavaan scenes, Curze opening up a can, the Iron Warriors causing "collateral damage" on the other traitor legions shooting down the RG, all in all came out pretty epic.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

My lunch break just ended, and if I don't finish this Dark Angel story by sunset I'm a dead man, but I'll reply properly later.

 

A death mark's not an easy thing to live with. On the other hand, Dark Angels. . .? :rolleyes:

[Walter Payton]

Best Ciaphas Cain quotation:

 

"Blood for the Blood God!"

"Well you can't have mine."

[Ulfast]

The book also mentions that Lorgar already was trying to make people understand that the Emperor was a god for several years (maybe decades), yet still he only stops Lorgar now, after so long, and how? By humiliating him in front of his Legion and brother. Yes I can understand the argument: a parent has to be hard on his child, but this isn't 'being hard' in the way people mean it.

 

(edit: typos)

 

I think this was a very good thing with the book, that they actually did the "right" thing in giving people something to believe and hope in and they got a beating for it. After that they saw the truth behind the emperor and they got really upset and disapointed. As a true astarte and defender of humankind, I think it was a good move to find something else. Of course they could never know that chaos was so and will be so bad as it turns out.

 

Or will it? I like those thoughts that without chaos humankind will die out, similiar to eldar. That thought is indeed something to think about and gives a new meaning to the world of modern 40k.

 

Great to read your thought of your book A D-B and also intersting to see that more will come about the word bearers. I can´t wait to read more of them, they are fast becoming another favorit legion to follow.

[Iron Lord]

Best Ciaphas Cain quotation:

 

"Blood for the Blood God!"

"Well you can't have mine."

 

It's phrased slightly differently in the book:

 

"Kolbe," I said, placing the young praetor at last. "What can I do for you?"

"I thought it was the other way round. Excuse me a minute..."

He was interrupted by a burst of incoherent screaming which sounded like the warcry of a Khornate fanatic and which terminated abruptly in the thud of a power maul on full charge and a gurgle which sounded distinctively unhealthy.

"Well he's not getting mine... Sorry commissar, where were we?"

[Lord Tharand]

I think Lorgar comes across as a very interesting and flawed character. Some of my favorite parts of the book were the discussions around the Word Bearers geneseed and how it breeds greater loyalty to their primarch than most other legions. One might not consider this a flaw (especially in a military organization) but it's pointed out many times in the book so it must be important. As Erebus describes there are purges in the legion but they're clearly smaller than any other traitor legion. And I think that gets to the fundamental point of how a genetic superhuman would be willing to accept "The Truth" as Lorgar sees it because they're predisposed to it. Kor Phaeron and Erebus are able to exploit this and corrupt to Chaos through the distraught Lorgar. At least that’s how I sort of imagine things.

 

The other thing about Lorgar is that he doesn't appear to be a pioneer. He's only ever pushed into action by something or something. For example: Visions of the Emperor push him to start a faith and civil war on his home world. Kor Phaeron and Erebus push him down the path to Chaos. Argel Tal's "sacrifice" in the Eye pushes him to go look himself. It's as if he's afraid to go himself to see the truth. Argel Tal even remarks about this a bit. And finally, at the very end, its Kor Phaeron and Erebus that finally push him forward on Isstvan. So what we see is that Lorgar is very indecisive and to some degree weak willed but he has an incredible thirst for knowledge. It's no wonder the chaos gods picked the Word Bearers as the first Legion to corrupt. They were the easiest target and once bent to their will they would see the job through with unswerving faith.

 

A-D-B, I loved the book and I truly enjoyed and liked Argel Tal. I felt great love for him at the same time I was very disgusted by his actions.