After reading the First Heretic

[minigun762]

Just finished the book about an hour ago and overall I really enjoyed it. Without sounding too fanboyish, I must say that A D-B is quickly approaching the top of my list as far as BL authors are concerned. His novels feel like they have a good balance of action and plot without the whole thing being either complete bolter-porn or too dry and dull.

 

As for the book, I had a few thoughts in no particular order.

 

It probably doesn't matter at this point but SPOILERS BELOW!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) It was a nice little tidbit to find out that the Word Bearers were formerly known as the Imperial Heralds. Doesn't really change much but it fleshes them out a bit more.

2) We are seeing some evidence of various Primarchs being "humanized", and Lorgar is a prime example of that. The collapsing into the dirt after the Emperor's speech, the lack of drive afterwards. Even the relationship he has with the Word Bearers is much more friendly and close then what we see in other Legions. If you didn't know better, you would have to assume that Lorgar is just a man.

3) I very much liked the insight into the whole possession/possessed Marine. The description made it so you could get a sense of what they were really feeling or going through.

4) The Corax/Lorgar/Curze battle was a highlight of the book. I also liked how Lorgar was outmatched and knew it but went for it anyway. That and Curze's disgust at both his weakness and corruption were great additions.

5) Not much was said about the Iron Warriors but I did enjoy their remarks about shooting down transports and the wreckage falling into their allies' forces. Also was it just me or did it seem heavily implied that Lorgar/Erebus/Kor might have started the rebellion on Olympia to force the Iron Warriors' hand?

6) More evidence of the lost legions and what happened to them. Since it was implied that they were absorbed into the Ultramarines, it makes you wonder why them and why not spread throughout all the Legions.

 

Anyway, great book. One of the better ones of the Horus Heresy series I'd say.

[Captain Idaho]

I loved the interaction between the Legions. You can see the cracks in their allegiance before even their first battle together! The callous disregard of the Ironwarriors, the cynicalism of the Nightlords and terror that was Night Haunter and the enigmatic Alpha Legion were very interesting to read.

 

I think Lorgar comes across as a very interesting and flawed character.

 

Definitely. I wouldn't say interesting per se, but very real and believable.

 

The real interesting Primarch I think we can all agree over shadowed any other in this book was Curze! The little page time he did have was used so well that we got a real impression of what he is like and that there is more to him than we ever considered.

 

He is also seriously bad- :(

[Clewz]

Started reading this today. Have been barely able to put it down. Loving the "human failings" that are apparent in Lorgar and the cheeky nudges towards filling the gaps in regards to the missing legions

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

5) Not much was said about the Iron Warriors but I did enjoy their remarks about shooting down transports and the wreckage falling into their allies' forces. Also was it just me or did it seem heavily implied that Lorgar/Erebus/Kor might have started the rebellion on Olympia to force the Iron Warriors' hand?

 

I doubt they would have needed to, Perturabo was already harboring ill feelings towards the Emperor for what he perceived were constant and unwarranted slights against he and his Legion in lieu of Dorn and the Imperial Fists. He'd have turned just for the chance to prove he was the better warrior, leader, and siegecrafter. Olympia would have just been another excuse, but it is one that could very well have been fomented by the Word Bearers just to add that excess baggage.

 

The First Heretic is now #28 on the NY Times Bestseller List, by the way. B)

[Wolf Lord Beowulf]

I wouldn't play Word Bearers, but I am highly tempted to make some pre-Monarchia/Pre Heresy units of them.

 

Parchment white armor, stained glass blue shoulderpad design, and gold trimmings with red cloth.

 

Basically, I want them to look like the inside of a Church. It'll look great.

 

 

Anyhoo, the book was amazing. I do hope it's the first part of a series instead of a stand alone. After this book, I despise Lorgar and his cohorts even more. Their fall to Chaos was due to their weakness of needing faith to show the way.

 

Be that as it may, I did enjoy the delicious irony that Lorgar's writings (licticio divinatus), Emperor's Tarot, and shrine worlds are all ideas he started and are now prevalent in the 41'st millenium. whereas the "New Word" is kind of like an artists "magnum opus" that he sees as his best work, his previous works being childs writings in comparison, yet never sees the same popularity and success as his earlier writing in his career. It was marvelous.

 

....I mean, if we had to get two terrible Dark Angles books, we deserve two or more Good Word Bearers books. (no offense to DA players, but those books were pretty bad)

 

Eagerly awaiting "Prospero Burns" to see if they expand on the "There are no Wolves on Fenris" thing, and maybe a little more on Russ possibly only "acting" like a barbarian/viking, hiding something.

 

Also, woot woot, first post in over a year of not watching B&C. (Note the extremely old member number. lol)

[Clewz]

Eagerly awaiting "Prospero Burns" to see if they expand on the "There are no Wolves on Fenris" thing, and maybe a little more on Russ possibly only "acting" like a barbarian/viking, hiding something.

 

Also an explanation as to why the wolves are allowed rune priests would be nice

[Walter Payton]

Sure, I can completely agree with that. I understand that history shows us many great generals..... from Hannibal to whomever... that were leaders, and strategists, but probably couldn't raise a bronze sword to defend themselves.

 

There's been a few; the Duke of Wellington had to defend himself with a sword at the Battle of Assaye, Alexander was believed to have sometimes fought alongside his men, as was Richard the Lionheart, Horatio Nelson was at just as much risk as any other aboard his warships (possibly more so, because of his gaudy uniform). Sir David Baird, personally led the storming party against Seringapatam in 1798, and was reported to have slain tens of Indian soldiers. Even Sir Douglas Haig took aerial trips over the frontlines, running the risk of being shot down. Colonel Swinton of the 78th Highlanders took up a musket at Assaye when his regiment was almost annihilated. The Archbishop of Canterbury reputedly fought at Crecy, encased in black armour and armed with a mace (some accounts even have him wearing his mitre atop his helmet). Even Adolf Hitler, the archetypal armchair commander, earned an Iron Cross 1st Class in WWI. Hermann Goering was an ace fighter pilot, despite being a staggeringly inept fighter commander. General Harris of the British Army lost a scrap of his skull at Bunker Hill.

 

But these are exceptions rather than rules; a commander can't coordinate effectively from the centre of combat.

[Brother Hadafix]

IT seemed strange the Lorgar and Fulgrim did not get on. Fulgrim was as much an artist, philosopher and politician as a warrior, yet it seems he snubbed Lorgar... dont get, what am I missing?

 

Other than that, the book was great.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

IT seemed strange the Lorgar and Fulgrim did not get on. Fulgrim was as much an artist, philosopher and politician as a warrior, yet it seems he snubbed Lorgar... dont get, what am I missing?

 

Other than that, the book was great.

 

To be honest, I think it's a testament to the charisma of Horus that he was able to cobble together so many Primarchs that really didn't like each other very much. Magnus and Mortarion's mutual contempt, Lorgar and just about everyone, bitter Perturabo with something to prove, Curze and Fulgrim's strange rivalry and disloyalty to each other; it really is more a cult of personality that the only things these guys had in common was their love for Horus and their hate for the Emperor.

[minigun762]

I'm sure it has already been brought up before but this was a new idea to me regarding why the Emperor didn't explain that there were gods in the warp.

 

What if his goal was to weaken the gods by both denying their existence and killing off those cultures who worshipped them?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm sure it has already been brought up before but this was a new idea to me regarding why the Emperor didn't explain that there were gods in the warp.

 

What if his goal was to weaken the gods by both denying their existence and killing off those cultures who worshipped them?

 

Build the Imperium of Man and then strip Man of his Humanity? Sounds like something an inhuman user would resort to as a tactic. :lol:

[randian]

Can't he see these guys are steering him to their own end?

That makes the revelations about Lorgar in Dark Creed rather more interesting, doesn't it?

 

 

Specifically, the reason the Imperium hasn't seen anything of Lorgar is because he has (on his own orders according to Erebus) for the last 8,000 years or so been locked up in a temple meditating on Chaos, rather than going out and fighting for Chaos, leaving Erebus and Kor Phaeron in total control of the Legion. Maybe they manipulated Lorgar into doing that too.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

What so Erebus doesn't get killed in a later HH novel? That is the most disappointing news I ever heard! :tu:

 

I'm sure it has already been brought up before but this was a new idea to me regarding why the Emperor didn't explain that there were gods in the warp.

 

What if his goal was to weaken the gods by both denying their existence and killing off those cultures who worshipped them?

 

It has been discussed at length many times by me! Search for the topic "The God Question".

 

But yes, the Imperial Truth was there to weaken the influence and power of the Chaos Gods so the later stages of The Emperor's plans could finish the job. It's likely, as brought up by myself and others, that The Emperor sought to turn himself into a god, or at least a being very close to them in power. He was getting more and more powerful as people worshipped him, even the Space Marines worship him.

 

If he never sought to directly turn himself into a God, then it was certain he was happy with the status quo (possessing God power as a mortal) and the Imperial Truth eliminating his rivals works that way too.

 

The issue is the nature of "worship" in 40K. Paying someone homage, giving praise, exemplifying a beings' ideals etc, these are all providing power for a warp entity even if not out and out religous worship.

 

If you tell everyone that there are other Gods but you must worship me and not them you open the door for people to search for other "truths". But "enlightening" the masses by telling them that there are no Gods, but encouraging people to follow your ideals still allows you harness their power.

 

You could say that the Emperor is the God of Atheism!

[Yogi]

EDIT for the madman who has not read the book but is reading this thread my entire post is a spoiler!.

 

 

I read this in one day as I always do with any ADB book. I.e today. I was really looking forward to it and was not disappointed.

 

What to say about this book?

 

Well I found it a very dark yet enjoyable read. (generally I hate dark/horror fiction). I found it capable of stirring my emotions. The Primarchs are depicted very well. Guilliman in his no nonsense fashion. Curze as a badass. The Undivided legions all made great cameos, the IW's collateral damage. The mysterious AL who give nothing of their motives away, the NL being the epic badasses they are. Lots of great mysteries were touched on such as the stuff about the emperor creating the primarchs. The event horizon moment where the bridge officer announces he can hear vanice screaming and then shoots him in the stomach so everyone else can hear it. That was great.

 

Probably the saddest moment for me was when the nice guy Ravenguard Captain gets betrayed. It really came across as base treachery, as a despicable act you couldn't enjoy even if you love chaos. Ie great job.

 

I also find it funny that the Custodes come across as blind Zealots. In a book about the original chaos zealots. Yet the world bearers don’t come across as zealots. Not a criticism though.

 

In the beginning I wanted that hustler Ishaq to die painfully, but even he grew on me, which was surprising.

 

I do have a criticism and that has to do with Lorgar. Its minor but its there. Lorgar is depicted and the gentle soul thrust into the shoes of a warlord. Cool. He wants to be a priest not a soldier; he needs something to believe in to feel whole. Cool. His major flaw is his trusting nature which allows him to fail to see he is surrounded by power hungry vipers. Cool.

 

The problem for me is that he just lacks confidence. He's a primarch but seems to be almost fearful, hesitant. His interactions with his brother Ferrus for example make him come across as a :o. It’s too much weakness. He's interesting, but you don't respect him. His humanity makes him indecisive when the sacrifices come around. He's not a sociopathic monster and that understandable, but rather then steeling himself towards these horrible acts he needs to commit to get the job done and sticking with what he believes in. Or realizing he is wrong and trying to salvage the situation. He punks out and tries to suicide by Corax. Then Curze saves him and calls him pathetic and as the reader I agree. You pity him. He is a coward.

 

The problem I have with this is here is meant to be the architect of the Chaos betrayal, the zealot who when he is scorned turns to the real gods of the galaxy. But he is so desperate and so pathetic that his seconds are doing all the work. He believes in this ideal but shys away from full commitment. If I can be harsh, he is a limp puppet for others to play.

 

That’s why I believe people are like they don't wanna collect word bearers after reading. It’s not about making him "the best" it’s about making him competent, it’s about making him respectable. He just isn’t.

 

Reading that back it sound quite harsh, like I hated the book, but that’s not true. Argel Tals character and possession was beautifully written, the fact that you always chuck as many female characters as possible is great. I really liked the blind lady, she was warm and kind yet strong. The execution of tie ins like the blind lady whos dream becomes a reality at the end was fantastic. It’s just Lorgars characterization that stops this being a homerun for me.

 

2 skulls of one of the numberless fans.

 

 

EDIT: I forgot to say that the Daival Shan Seperatist Warlord quote at the beginning is awesome. I love that quote.

[A D-B]

That’s why I believe people are like they don't wanna collect word bearers after reading. It’s not about making him "the best" it’s about making him competent, it’s about making him respectable. He just isn’t.

 

Well, as I said, it's not something I really believe myself. And thankfully, the overwhelming opinion has been of a primarch depicted pretty much "better" (take that however you want it) than primarchs in many/most other novels. But that said, I do see why you say it, Yogi - I don't see him as incompetent myself at all; just at a terrible point in his life. He is not the man he's supposed to be, and he knows it.

 

Narratively-speaking, the novel doesn't dwell on his successes - even when his Legion (or Lorgar himself) achieves great things, Lorgar never pays attention to them because that's how his mind works. Ambitious, hard-working people always look to the horizon, rarely dwelling on The Now. After the censure, it's mentioned that the Word Bearers become one of the very best and most efficient Legions in the Great Crusade, but Lorgar pays it no heed. He doesn't care. It doesn't enter his thoughts. He himself is slaughtering countless Raven Guard with no effort at all, but pays it no attention. Narratively speaking, his achievements are toned down in the text, purely because they're filtered through his eyes to being almost ignorable. He wants other things.

 

Excuse the cut and paste from a vaguely-related topic on another forum. I was mentioning this the other day:

 

"To me, it's always seemed like Lorgar came into his own as a Chaos Primarch. That's when he shifted gears and everything started to feel "right" for him. He got to be the archpriest he always wanted to be, and he was a natural at it.

 

The Lorgar we see in The First Heretic is at the point when his genetic gifts have all failed him, he's lost in the entirety of creation, his worldview is annihilated, and he's at his lowest ebb. This is Lorgar at the nadir of his existence, from the chastisement, to the discovery of the hideous truth, to taking part in fratricide and the butchery of the greatest betrayal he can imagine. At no part is he exactly 'together' and firing on all cylinders. And I didn't want him to be: I wanted the first view of him as The World's Greatest Orator to be when he's on some rebellious world in front of a "Horus Needs You!" poster, so every reader of the series can go: "Damn, this is what he should've been like on the Blue Team..."

 

A lot of the reviews have noted The First Heretic has a similar feel as the opening three novels. That's intentional. Some of the Horus Heresy novels have been more standalone than others (Legion, Mechanium) while others were more intended as part of their own series-within-series (Horus Rising, Descent of Angels). The First Heretic is, I guess, one of the latter examples (I always thought the epilogue made it especially clear these characters had more to do in the relatively near future). Those same characters will go on to fight in the Calth book(s?) if and when they get done, they'll fight in crusades during the Age of Darkness, and we'll see them at the Siege of Terra, too. Just as with Horus and Loken in the original three novels, we'll see Lorgar and Argel Tal change and develop over the course of the Heresy. Argel Tal's death is even set in stone, and it's not too hard to work out how he'll croak."

 

EDIT: In short, we always see Chaos Primarchs as 'more badass' when they become corrupted, and we rarely see them actually any better. Horus becomes a bloated, deluded fool. Mortarion becomes foul and disgusting. Magnus is manipulated even more, and lord of a Legion of dust. Fulgrim is... well, the Prince of Pleasure, possessed and no longer himself at all. No one gets better with corruption. No one gets much of a good deal out of it, except being a better warrior. At least, that's how it often comes across in canon before.

 

I wanted Lorgar's story arc to fight that presentation. I wanted him to show how the Chaos Primarchs can really love their ascension after a while. That's when he finally lives up to his potential as a primarch, and becomes the man he aways wanted to be. He becomes the charismatic, successful, genius orator - the Archpriest of Chaos - and really starts to outshine his brothers in some regards.

 

EDIT 2: The Revenge of Editing: Every primarch has their flaws, and where Lorgar and his Legion are concerned, it's always been something that made them unpalatable to a lot of people, because it makes them look dependent and incompetent on an internal level. Lorgar's flaw is something that makes him incompetent and distasteful in general, too. He's often cited as "needing to believe in something", as if he can't function without faith. He's considered weak for being manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. Again, I'm not sure I really see it n such black and white terms. In The First Heretic, his need for faith is more than just a 21st Century atheistic disparagement of "needing religion for comfort", it's because he was raised - and truly believes - that the species needs faith in something greater to achieve its potential. He thinks it's core to the human condition, and he has every reason to believe it. Kor Phaeron and Erebus are able to manipulate him because they take the roles his brothers and father never took. The one primarch who was lost and alone needed guidance in an existence he had no passion for. And that guidance was provided by trusted the men that raised him and grew up with him, rather than his blood relations. And honestly, that rings a lot truer to me than many other primarch depictions, so I'm peachy keen when so many of the reviews and feedback comments see it the same way.

 

But as I said, I reckon Chaos Lorgar, neck-deep in the Heresy itself, will have thrown off his hesitance and doubt, as well as the shackles of reliance on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. He's the Archpriest of Chaos, and one of the best propaganda/recruitment weapons Chaos ever has. After all, Lorgar's Legion is the one that turns up with billions of cultists and daemons everywhere in the Heresy, bolstering Horus's forces by an insane amount. That's who Lorgar will become, later in the series.

[Yogi]

Thank you very much for the response.

 

I see what you are getting at. I had no doubt it was deliberate. All stories have conflict and Lorgar suffers a lot of internal conflict. Lorgar was also quite relatable to me. You could understand what he was trying to do. I guess I expect too much of the poor fella.

 

I also see what you mean about how he glazes over all his actual achievements as nothing hurts him. But you have to admit, what primarch couldn't kill the raven guard by the dozen? Primarchs are always depicted as super powerful. Comparing him to his peers, that isn't really an achievement. But yes he is highly critical of himself and so his failings do show up more.

 

I do stand by my point that he is unrespectable. Perhaps I am one of those "make him the best" readers. I guess I am just kinda of disappointed that the architect of chaos seems to have so little going for him strength wise. He can talk sure, the speech to the other undivided legions was a nice way of showing his skill as an orator. But Horus is a skillful talker as well as being a megadeath badass. What is Lorgar’s true talent? To me he doesn’t come across as having a standout talent/strength, which is disappointing in the “make him the best” fanboy way I think. He was the zealot with the crisis of faith who never really overcomes it. So even faith which would have been his standout feature is not there. Perhaps it’s because you intend this book as a trilogy, maybe you will build him up as you go?

Or maybe I am hopeless clueless.

 

 

Sorry for the late reply I saw you were in the thread, but I have to put my posts in word to make them readable.

 

 

EDIT Revenge of edits Edits.

 

I just see what you wrote now. And it is good. The idea of Lorgar actually being improved by chaos is a really wonderful idea. Also I get the need for faith, that was communicated very well by the book. I was just, I feel petulant now (lol) I was expecting more conviction once the betrayal was underway. Once again thankyou very much for sharing your thoughts. I enjoy reading them very much.

[A D-B]

Thank you very much for the response.

 

I see what you are getting at. I had no doubt it was deliberate. All stories have conflict and Lorgar suffers a lot of internal conflict. Lorgar was also quite relatable to me. You could understand what he was trying to do. I guess I expect too much of the poor fella.

 

I also see what you mean about how he glazes over all his actual achievements as nothing hurts him. But you have to admit, what primarch couldn't kill the raven guard by the dozen? Primarchs are always depicted as super powerful. Comparing him to his peers, that isn't really an achievement. But yes he is highly critical of himself and so his failings do show up more.

 

I do stand by my point that he is unrespectable. Perhaps I am one of those "make him the best" readers. I guess I am just kinda of disappointed that the architect of chaos seems to have so little going for him strength wise. He can talk sure, the speech to the other undivided legions was a nice way of showing his skill as an orator. But Horus is a skillful talker as well as being a megadeath badass. What is Lorgar’s true talent? To me he doesn’t come across as having a standout talent/strength, which is disappointing in the “make him the best” fanboy way I think. He was the zealot with the crisis of faith who never really overcomes it. So even faith which would have been his standout feature is not there. Perhaps it’s because you intend this book as a trilogy, maybe you will build him up as you go?

Or maybe I am hopeless clueless.

 

 

Sorry for the late reply I saw you were in the thread, but I have to put my posts in word to make them readable.

 

It's all good. And I don't think you're wrong, as it happens. I sympathise with Lorgar a great deal, but I don't respect him. Not yet, anyway. Chaos didn't choose Lorgar because he was powerful, the way it did with Horus and Magnus. It chose Lorgar because he was vulnerable.

 

In that regard, it's yet another reason why he's always seemed less beloved than most other primarchs. And sure, he'll become a great, powerful ruler in the wars to come. But I dig that vulnerability. I think it gives him depth and realism in a family that is already stuffed with charismatic, overachieving badasses - and I respect most of them, without sympathising (as much) with many of them. So I wanted to redress the balance.

 

I just think it's important that at least one/some of the primarchs come into their own after Chaos takes hold. If they all become bloated, deluded fools, that's not exactly a great and/or inspiring enemy. Lorgar in The First Heretic was a soulful, lost creation, seeking a path. He only really finds that path after Isstvan V, when it's his duty to stand at Horus's side and rally half of the Imperium to the cause of Chaos. Now the betrayal is done, he can begin to shape humanity the way he believes it should be shaped. That was always his strength, his vision, and he'll get his chance to do that as the war rages on.

[Yogi]

Well I am convinced.

 

In that regard, it's yet another reason why he's always seemed less beloved than most other primarchs. And sure, he'll become a great, powerful ruler in the wars to come. But I dig that vulnerability. I think it gives him depth and realism in a family that is already stuffed with charismatic, overachieving badasses - and I respect most of them, without sympathising (as much) with many of them. So I wanted to redress the balance.

 

Indeed it is true. My disappointment has faded reading your posts. But Just imagine if you wrote about leman russ and mostly focused of the fact that he is fully capable of being an intellectual and civilised yet doesn't dare show this side. (hinted at in A Thousand Sons.) And just hides it with ferocity and bravado.. There would be a million complaints.

 

Haha Anyway thanks for the discourse.

[Captain Idaho]

I just think it's important that at least one/some of the primarchs come into their own after Chaos takes hold. If they all become bloated, deluded fools, that's not exactly a great and/or inspiring enemy. Lorgar in The First Heretic was a soulful, lost creation, seeking a path. He only really finds that path after Isstvan V, when it's his duty to stand at Horus's side and rally half of the Imperium to the cause of Chaos. Now the betrayal is done, he can begin to shape humanity the way he believes it should be shaped. That was always his strength, his vision, and he'll get his chance to do that as the war rages on.

 

Interesting take. In some ways, and I could be miles off your intention here, he alone retains himself the further along his creation he travels. He is a man built upon his faith, especially in view of self esteem. He believes he is human for being devoted to to a higher being than himself as that is what he believes is a core of being human. So in a twisted way, he is more human for becoming a Daemon Primarch.

[Ulfast]

Thanks A D-B, I know understand more clearer what you wanted to do (and shall do) with Lorgar and I must say that I like it. I´m actually pretty bored with all this primarch, runing around as bad ass warriors and not much else. Boring I say! They need more personality, both in positive and negative. Specially I would say some of the "good" primarch like Dorn and Gulliam but also the chaos ones. Its good that you have dared to take this step. Keep it up!

 

Right now I would be very intersting to read Pertubos story. Wonder if we will ever read that one?

[Prot]

EDIT: In short, we always see Chaos Primarchs as 'more badass' when they become corrupted, and we rarely see them actually any better. Horus becomes a bloated, deluded fool. Mortarion becomes foul and disgusting. Magnus is manipulated even more, and lord of a Legion of dust. Fulgrim is... well, the Prince of Pleasure, possessed and no longer himself at all. No one gets better with corruption. No one gets much of a good deal out of it, except being a better warrior. At least, that's how it often comes across in canon before.

 

I don't know.... I would personally go a different way with this. I would think that to be tempted to side with the heinous warp types, there would be some personal improvement one could look forward to.

 

I think a good example I can think of is Star Wars. Even as a kid something was always inviting about the dark side. Even as a kid I could see the Darkside definitely did some bad things to you, but man.... it just seemed so damn strong! Sure turning to the darkside usually included FAR more bad skin days than good, but so what? I'd be making bacon and eggs every morning with my new Force Lightning powers!

 

The Darkside was kind of what I thought Chaos would be more like. There is a price to this alliance, but there is a very substantial benefit to it as well.

 

Does everyone have to go crazy, and start oozing puss from their 27 belly buttons? I'm not sure why.

 

Perturabo seems to have done ok. I mean even as a loyal Primarch I wouldn't trust him to babysit my cats on the weekend, but he seems to have faired rather well. He is no more disturbed than he was. I always saw Perturabo as doing fairly well with his Chaos allegiance. He seems to ally himself with the stuff of Chaos well enough to benefit from things like: Daemonic weaponry and machines of war, but he doesn't seem so deep that he is lost to Chaos' desires entirely.

 

What about Alpaharius? Hard to imagine those guys going crazy (even if one dies). I kind of thought there was a fine line that could enjoy some treats from the Chaos buffet without being stuck for the entire bill.

 

I just think it's important that at least one/some of the primarchs come into their own after Chaos takes hold. If they all become bloated, deluded fools, that's not exactly a great and/or inspiring enemy. Lorgar in The First Heretic was a soulful, lost creation, seeking a path. He only really finds that path after Isstvan V, when it's his duty to stand at Horus's side and rally half of the Imperium to the cause of Chaos

^I like that. That's a cool direction IMHO.

 

 

 

Until these books, I really saw Chaos as being married. There is so much to benefit from being in the relationship on a day to day basis that it almost -warrants- the fact you are working to meet the desires of a hideous warp beast. (May my wife/warp beast NEVER read this post)

[A D-B]

I don't know.... I would personally go a different way with this. I would think that to be tempted to side with the heinous warp types, there would be some personal improvement one could look forward to.

 

Definitely. I just think that's something that could've come across more/better in published canon over the years.

[Lord Tharand]

EDIT: In short, we always see Chaos Primarchs as 'more badass' when they become corrupted, and we rarely see them actually any better. Horus becomes a bloated, deluded fool. Mortarion becomes foul and disgusting. Magnus is manipulated even more, and lord of a Legion of dust. Fulgrim is... well, the Prince of Pleasure, possessed and no longer himself at all. No one gets better with corruption. No one gets much of a good deal out of it, except being a better warrior. At least, that's how it often comes across in canon before.

 

I don't know.... I would personally go a different way with this. I would think that to be tempted to side with the heinous warp types, there would be some personal improvement one could look forward to.

 

I think a good example I can think of is Star Wars. Even as a kid something was always inviting about the dark side. Even as a kid I could see the Darkside definitely did some bad things to you, but man.... it just seemed so damn strong! Sure turning to the darkside usually included FAR more bad skin days than good, but so what? I'd be making bacon and eggs every morning with my new Force Lightning powers!

 

The Darkside was kind of what I thought Chaos would be more like. There is a price to this alliance, but there is a very substantial benefit to it as well.

 

Does everyone have to go crazy, and start oozing puss from their 27 belly buttons? I'm not sure why.

 

Perturabo seems to have done ok. I mean even as a loyal Primarch I wouldn't trust him to babysit my cats on the weekend, but he seems to have faired rather well. He is no more disturbed than he was. I always saw Perturabo as doing fairly well with his Chaos allegiance. He seems to ally himself with the stuff of Chaos well enough to benefit from things like: Daemonic weaponry and machines of war, but he doesn't seem so deep that he is lost to Chaos' desires entirely.

 

What about Alpaharius? Hard to imagine those guys going crazy (even if one dies). I kind of thought there was a fine line that could enjoy some treats from the Chaos buffet without being stuck for the entire bill.

 

I just think it's important that at least one/some of the primarchs come into their own after Chaos takes hold. If they all become bloated, deluded fools, that's not exactly a great and/or inspiring enemy. Lorgar in The First Heretic was a soulful, lost creation, seeking a path. He only really finds that path after Isstvan V, when it's his duty to stand at Horus's side and rally half of the Imperium to the cause of Chaos

^I like that. That's a cool direction IMHO.

 

 

 

Until these books, I really saw Chaos as being married. There is so much to benefit from being in the relationship on a day to day basis that it almost -warrants- the fact you are working to meet the desires of a hideous warp beast. (May my wife/warp beast NEVER read this post)

 

Thats what happens when you make a deal with the devil. Bad things man...bad things!

 

We can all agree that Vader was the most badass evil bad guy ever and we see his power pretty easily but we don't always see the price he paid. He's all burned up, missing his arms, can't breath on his own anymore, he lost the love of his life and his children. This is a steep price to pay for a man who originally was just attempting to save his wife. Sure he doesn't have a vomitting head growing out of his stomach but it's still pretty bad!

 

I like the way 40k has done it. I like the idea that you can throw off the yoke of the Emperor/society/whatever and gain some measure of power/freedom in a hateful universe but theres a price to pay. The chaos gods and daemons want blood and a lot of times it's your blood they want! Lorgar might be pretty badass right now that his legion has recovered and started the heresy but come the failure of truly killing the Emperor and having Chaos dominate he's just a failure again. He's had 10000 years to ponder that while locked away in his temple. He's a failure to his father and shortly he'll be a failure to the chaos gods! There's some irony in there someplace.

 

Having said that, I would totally sell out and become a Sith Lord! But on the other hand I would think twice about becoming a plague marine. Sure, I could live forever and be immune to any disease but no one is going want to go out to dinner with me!

[Prot]

I just got a friend to pick up the book, and it's kind of funny because his reactions are basically mirroring mine.

 

The thing I don't get is why is the Emperor so rare in the other books? I understand he isn't a main focus of the series yet, but still. Also the Primarchs are rather mysterious characters for some reason and this book gives us tons of that.

 

My friend is simply enjoying the book (at this point) based on those points.

 

I picked up the Nightlords novel so I already started it and went through my Night Lords stuff. Thankfully I sold most of it. :)

 

Back to this book... I would say some other people have dabbled in this but A D-B, I'd be surprised if you didn't get a bigger piece of the pie down the road. Locally the reaction to the book has been thoroughly positive. Hopefully the Black Library keeps you busy.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I imagine there's a certain reluctance to do direct portrayals of the Emperor for any great length of time. Writing about the Primarchs is pretty ballsy; writing solid canon on the Emperor before he became the psychic vampire lighthouse is most likely something undertaken with strange robed creatures watching every word you type.