After reading the First Heretic

[quiethood]

How is Lorgar a failure? 10k years later, he is still around pimping chaos. His father's empire lay in ruin and a constant state of decay. I don't remember reading anywhere that Lorgar's goal was to kill his father. He set out to prove his father wrong, and he did. Ultamately it proves to be the ruin of, as Corax put it," the perfect order", but sometimes you have to crack a few eggs. Chaos got what it wanted in the end, and eternity of death, war, and misery.

I think one thing that's interesting is how Lorgar's brothers fail him. Everyone wants to cry the Emperor was such a bad father figure, but look at the primarchs, too. Magnus just drops the ball completely. It makes him even more deserving of his fate, especially combined with reading A Thousand Sons. You also have Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus just go douche bag towards him. Guilliman shows no compassion towards him or his legion. He finds out that there's been talk of destroying his legion, but is defended by Russ and Horus. Lorgar just gets reemed from his "family".

On a side note, though, I want to know what the shtich between Konrad and Corax is. The scene where the Night Lords primarch steps in to save Lorgar, easily stole the show for me. It was like a supernova of awesomeness. I found myself wanting to know where and what the Night Haunter did next. And what did Sevetar do to Corax?

I notice that the picture of the possesed marine on the front of the book looks a lot like the possessed marine in the chaos codex(pg29)? I was just wondering if that was the inspiration for what Argel Tal is supose to look like?

[Lord Tharand]

How is Lorgar a failure? 10k years later, he is still around pimping chaos. His father's empire lay in ruin and a constant state of decay. I don't remember reading anywhere that Lorgar's goal was to kill his father. He set out to prove his father wrong, and he did. Ultamately it proves to be the ruin of, as Corax put it," the perfect order", but sometimes you have to crack a few eggs. Chaos got what it wanted in the end, and eternity of death, war, and misery.

I think one thing that's interesting is how Lorgar's brothers fail him. Everyone wants to cry the Emperor was such a bad father figure, but look at the primarchs, too. Magnus just drops the ball completely. It makes him even more deserving of his fate, especially combined with reading A Thousand Sons. You also have Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus just go douche bag towards him. Guilliman shows no compassion towards him or his legion. He finds out that there's been talk of destroying his legion, but is defended by Russ and Horus. Lorgar just gets reemed from his "family".

On a side note, though, I want to know what the shtich between Konrad and Corax is. The scene where the Night Lords primarch steps in to save Lorgar, easily stole the show for me. It was like a supernova of awesomeness. I found myself wanting to know where and what the Night Haunter did next. And what did Sevetar do to Corax?

I notice that the picture of the possesed marine on the front of the book looks a lot like the possessed marine in the chaos codex(pg29)? I was just wondering if that was the inspiration for what Argel Tal is supose to look like?

 

Did Chaos get what it wanted? Lorgar? In my opinion no. Sure, the brought the Imperium low but didn't break it's back. In fact, his bringing the "Truth" of Chaos to humanity seems to have had the opposite effect. I highly doubt the chaos gods wanted the Emperor deified by most of humanity. Most of humanity further rejects Lorgar's truth and want nothing to do with daemonic entities. So yes, Lorgar failed a second time in trying to bring the chaotic truth to the masses and usurping his father with Horus. The traitor legions were broken and driven back into the Eye of Terror. He got close to winning but close on counts in hand grenades, horseshoes, and nuclear weapons.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Did Chaos get what it wanted? Lorgar? In my opinion no. Sure, the brought the Imperium low but didn't break it's back. In fact, his bringing the "Truth" of Chaos to humanity seems to have had the opposite effect. I highly doubt the chaos gods wanted the Emperor deified by most of humanity. Most of humanity further rejects Lorgar's truth and want nothing to do with daemonic entities. So yes, Lorgar failed a second time in trying to bring the chaotic truth to the masses and usurping his father with Horus. The traitor legions were broken and driven back into the Eye of Terror. He got close to winning but close on counts in hand grenades, horseshoes, and nuclear weapons.

 

If what the Cabal told Alpharius and Omegon in Legion was the truth, then Chaos did get exactly what it wanted: the "Anathema" neutralized, humanity on the slope to a slow extinction, and 9 Legions' worth of a toehold in the material universe to inflict its will upon the galaxy. I'd say Lorgar played exactly the role he needed to play, even if the end result wasn't what Lorgar desired.

[Captain Idaho]

Did Chaos get what it wanted? Lorgar? In my opinion no. Sure, the brought the Imperium low but didn't break it's back. In fact, his bringing the "Truth" of Chaos to humanity seems to have had the opposite effect. I highly doubt the chaos gods wanted the Emperor deified by most of humanity. Most of humanity further rejects Lorgar's truth and want nothing to do with daemonic entities. So yes, Lorgar failed a second time in trying to bring the chaotic truth to the masses and usurping his father with Horus. The traitor legions were broken and driven back into the Eye of Terror. He got close to winning but close on counts in hand grenades, horseshoes, and nuclear weapons.

 

If what the Cabal told Alpharius and Omegon in Legion was the truth, then Chaos did get exactly what it wanted: the "Anathema" neutralized, humanity on the slope to a slow extinction, and 9 Legions' worth of a toehold in the material universe to inflict its will upon the galaxy. I'd say Lorgar played exactly the role he needed to play, even if the end result wasn't what Lorgar desired.

 

Is that what Chaos wanted though? They get much of their power from humanities dominance of the stars. Sure they will continue to be around without Humanity, but what a blow to their power!

 

I have a hard time believing the Acuity as fact as it was such an unknown source we just don't know it's nature or even if it is accurate. I mean, just 2 choices possible and both of them end in the destruction of humanity? We need more info on that thing.

 

Lorgar did play the role he needed to play, but not as success but rather a pawn. Given his nature, that is exactly what he wanted loyal or traitor, so he would consider that a success. It's all a matter of perspective I guess.

[Prot]

The moment with the Alpha Legion and the cabal definitely entered my mind as I read this book too....

 

But I think you guys might be missing something. Just a hunch but not only is this most likely true:

 

If what the Cabal told Alpharius and Omegon in Legion was the truth, then Chaos did get exactly what it wanted: the "Anathema" neutralized, humanity on the slope to a slow extinction, and 9 Legions' worth of a toehold in the material universe to inflict its will upon the galaxy.

 

But my hunch is that chaos knew the Emperor is actually planning on attacking Chaos. This manipulation was in some aspect perhaps a move of desperation against the Emperor. Logar was the backdoor to Horus, who in turn is Chaos' best chance to stop the Emperor's attack?

 

We now know that the Emperor used Chaos to help create the Primarchs. This establishes some form of relationship between Chaos and the big E. (Perhaps well before the Primarchs, stretching back who knows how long ago?)

[Captain Idaho]

We now know that the Emperor used Chaos to help create the Primarchs. This establishes some form of relationship between Chaos and the big E. (Perhaps well before the Primarchs, stretching back who knows how long ago?)

 

We don't really know. We have the word of a Daemon. There's probably a bit of truth but I doubt it was because the Emperor was a former cultist who got too big for his boots!

 

I always considered the Alpha Legion as out and out traitors but they weren't mentioned at all in the battle on Istvaan. That piqued my attention. They have chaos followers in present 40K but maybe those are a minority or maybe GW are changing that bit of fluff slightly? Or maybe their road to damnation is just longer than others?

[A D-B]

I just think it's important that at least one/some of the primarchs come into their own after Chaos takes hold. If they all become bloated, deluded fools, that's not exactly a great and/or inspiring enemy. Lorgar in The First Heretic was a soulful, lost creation, seeking a path. He only really finds that path after Isstvan V, when it's his duty to stand at Horus's side and rally half of the Imperium to the cause of Chaos. Now the betrayal is done, he can begin to shape humanity the way he believes it should be shaped. That was always his strength, his vision, and he'll get his chance to do that as the war rages on.

 

Interesting take. In some ways, and I could be miles off your intention here, he alone retains himself the further along his creation he travels. He is a man built upon his faith, especially in view of self esteem. He believes he is human for being devoted to to a higher being than himself as that is what he believes is a core of being human. So in a twisted way, he is more human for becoming a Daemon Primarch.

 

That's... actually a very elegant way of putting it. I feel the same, though your explanation sums it up much neater than mine would've.

 

The only thing to be careful with is the use of the term "human" in describing primarchs. (And I don't necessarily mean you, I just mean in general.) I think there's a dichotomy between primarchs and the Legiones Astartes, in that an Astartes loses some of his humanity to a degree - becoming distant from humanity on some levels - while a primarch is humanity magnified. In a very real sense, they're More Human Than Human: the traits of the human condition amplified tenfold.

 

But yeah, from a twisted perspective, I agree with you.

[Lord Tharand]

We now know that the Emperor used Chaos to help create the Primarchs. This establishes some form of relationship between Chaos and the big E. (Perhaps well before the Primarchs, stretching back who knows how long ago?)

 

We don't really know. We have the word of a Daemon. There's probably a bit of truth but I doubt it was because the Emperor was a former cultist who got too big for his boots!

 

I always considered the Alpha Legion as out and out traitors but they weren't mentioned at all in the battle on Istvaan. That piqued my attention. They have chaos followers in present 40K but maybe those are a minority or maybe GW are changing that bit of fluff slightly? Or maybe their road to damnation is just longer than others?

 

A-D-B mentioned Alpha Legion in The First Heretic and I believe Graham McNeill mentions them as well at Isstvan.

 

The thing about the Cabal is that their word can't be trusted and most of the book is filled with misdirection or out and out lies from different groups. I also think Captain Idaho has it right about not trusting a daemon's word. We just don't know if the Emperor made a deal with Chaos to create the Primarchs because the evidence just isn't there. It can certainly be proven that the Emperor wanted to keep Chaos away from the Primarchs and that he possibly might have used some "warp power" to help in the process.

[minigun762]

I think there's a dichotomy between primarchs and the Legiones Astartes, in that an Astartes loses some of his humanity to a degree - becoming distant from humanity on some levels - while a primarch is humanity magnified. In a very real sense, they're More Human Than Human: the traits of the human condition amplified tenfold.

 

I've never thought of it that way.

 

Before I saw it more as a heirarchy, with the Emperor at the top followed by his Primarchs, then Astartes and finally humanity. This meant that the Emperor and Primarchs were far removed from being a normal human, which always made me wonder at their very human errors and flaws when they should be immune to them.

 

What you're saying is that the Emperor and Primarchs are more like concentrated humanity, with the Emperor embodying it all and the various Primarchs each representing a facet of the Emperor and therefore a facet of humanity.

[Prot]

We now know that the Emperor used Chaos to help create the Primarchs. This establishes some form of relationship between Chaos and the big E. (Perhaps well before the Primarchs, stretching back who knows how long ago?)

 

We don't really know. We have the word of a Daemon. There's probably a bit of truth but I doubt it was because the Emperor was a former cultist who got too big for his boots!

 

I always considered the Alpha Legion as out and out traitors but they weren't mentioned at all in the battle on Istvaan. That piqued my attention. They have chaos followers in present 40K but maybe those are a minority or maybe GW are changing that bit of fluff slightly? Or maybe their road to damnation is just longer than others?

 

A-D-B mentioned Alpha Legion in The First Heretic and I believe Graham McNeill mentions them as well at Isstvan.

 

The thing about the Cabal is that their word can't be trusted and most of the book is filled with misdirection or out and out lies from different groups. I also think Captain Idaho has it right about not trusting a daemon's word. We just don't know if the Emperor made a deal with Chaos to create the Primarchs because the evidence just isn't there. It can certainly be proven that the Emperor wanted to keep Chaos away from the Primarchs and that he possibly might have used some "warp power" to help in the process.

 

Well I guess it is possible Chaos did not have a hand in the creation of the Primarchs, and I agree there is a lot of misdirection and deceit in the book,... BUT the visions or flashbacks appear to be real, as there is one point where they interact with the 'flashback' and it has a real world result.

 

Also, it makes sense that the Emperor NEEDED help. Or else why wouldn't he just continue to create more Primarchs? Also the use of the Geller (sp?) fields on the Primarch 'lab' seems to suggest a possible broken relationship or deal between the Emperor and Chaos. I can't think of any other time where something has had to protected by one of these fields unless it had some means of being effected by the warp.

 

Moving beyond that, there is a point before the Word Bearers break the field, that there is suggestion that the Emperor himself used some form of mass offering of souls to Chaos. I'm not calling the Emperor a mere Cultist, but if human sacrifice to Chaos isn't interacting with Chaos, I don't know what is.

[Captain Idaho]

If only Lorgar was created/born in 41st Millenium he would be the greatest hero of humanity!

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Personally, I don't think the daemon was lying the entire time. I find it quite believeable that the Emperor would cut a deal with Chaos while planning on destroying them in the end, like he would have with any pact made with a xeno. He simply may have underestimated the sheer power of the Warp, or overestimated his own ability to just welch on them and walk away without there being consequences, or that Chaos wouldn't have had a fallback plan in the event of treachery. In fact, given that they probably understand the nature of the Emperor better than any living entity, I'd go so far as to say they were expecting him to not keep to his side of the bargain. He apparently believed he understood them well enough that their fractitious nature meant they would never be able to mount a concentrated attack on him: nature of Chaos and all that.

 

We "know" from Horus' conversation with the daemons at Davin that the Emperor's Astronomican was causing all kinds of trouble in the Warp. We "know" from A Thousand Sons that he was trying to break into the Eldar webway, ostensibly to conquer it without fear of having to deal with the Warp directly anymore or the need to power the Astronomican. Now we "know" that the creation of the Primarchs came from a back-alley bargain between the Emperor and Chaos, and the Emperor took what he wanted and then told Chaos to take a long walk off a short pier. All of these events point to the actions of a being so purposefully xenocidal that he would go to any lengths to make anything not human in the galaxy dead or reduced to irrelevance and eventual extinction without any mercy or regard for their roles in existence.

[Brother Hadafix]

What you're saying is that the Emperor and Primarchs are more like concentrated humanity

Thats the way I have always seen it. It also means that they are as flawed as humans.

 

If only Lorgar was created/born in 41st Millenium he would be the greatest hero of humanity!

The irony of it eh? Now, one has to consider if Lorgars geneseed would be good to use.

[Captain Idaho]

What you're saying is that the Emperor and Primarchs are more like concentrated humanity

Thats the way I have always seen it. It also means that they are as flawed as humans.

 

And those flaws are concentrated also. Super humans have magnified human traits and that means magnified human virtues and vices...

 

 

If only Lorgar was created/born in 41st Millenium he would be the greatest hero of humanity!

The irony of it eh? Now, one has to consider if Lorgars geneseed would be good to use.

 

The Imperium did keep the Geneseed...

[Brother Hadafix]

What you\'re saying is that the Emperor and Primarchs are more like concentrated humanity

Thats the way I have always seen it. It also means that they are as flawed as humans.

 

And those flaws are concentrated also. Super humans have magnified human traits and that means magnified human virtues and vices...

Yup, galaxy changing bad if they get out get control.

 

If only Lorgar was created/born in 41st Millenium he would be the greatest hero of humanity!

The irony of it eh? Now, one has to consider if Lorgars geneseed would be good to use.

 

The Imperium did keep the Geneseed...

Are White Consuls said to worship the Emperor as a god?

[Rain]

Well I haven't posted here in a while, and haven't played either due to being busy and the Chaos codex just being impossible to make interesting lists with, but I picked this up since I remember liking Soul Hunter and ADB being a cool dude and I have to say, it was very very good, an easy notch above SH in my opinion, though that's probably not shared by many here.

 

First off, the whole "bad guy with a good side" shtick that gave me a sour taste in SH due to sadism being a natural trait of Night Lords actually works with Argel Tal, as there is a feeling that he was forced into the "conspiracy" in more ways than one. By the way this ties into the snake-snail-daemon's vision; as I understood it, it was not so much the vision itself that turned the WB aboard that ship as it was possession.

 

They might not have immediately recognized the effects of the possession, but I'm guessing it began working at them right then, especially in the case of Xaphen. This actually works in my mind, unlike Graham's clumsy evil sword plot in Fulgrim. The reason it works is because their 7 month Event Horizon reenactment was quite simply a better and more convincing plot device than an evil sword, even though the theme of possession is the same. The only quibbles I had were with the photographer who I thought was a bit of a throwaway character and too similar to Hawke from Storm of Iron who I hated, but he had a brief enough presence that I didn't care much.

 

Speaking of which, the portrayal of Iron Warriors was absolutely spot on, by which I mean matching the mental picture of the legion I've had of the legion for years now. The scene in which the IW are causing collateral damage to their "allies" and their sardonic response to Kor Phaeron are pure gold. Also the sheer lack of bolter porn was nice, and no scenes from the point of view of land raiders was certainly good, in fact no part of the book had the sometimes awkward or hammy breaks from immersion that plagued SH for me. Really, really well done overall, and I'm not really an ADB fanboy either.

 

Edit: On the point about Chaos "getting what it wanted" I think what people are missing is just how little the gods themselves care about what happens in the mortal universe on the relative scheme of things. Chaos fluff seems to imply that the Emperor was planning some kind of game changer that would really harm the gods so they took a small amount of their time to prevent that from happening, and succeeded. To them though, it was just a tiny exertion compared to the energy they put into the Great Game, which forms the lion's share of what Chaos "cares" about. I guess what I mean is that Horus failed, the traitor legions failed, Lorgar failed, but Chaos succeeded, which is the whole point, the gods see their mortal servants as pawns and who runs what galaxy is of little consequence to them.

[Prot]

The reason it works is because their 7 month Event Horizon reenactment was quite simply a better and more convincing plot device than an evil sword, even though the theme of possession is the same.

 

The possession was interesting.... but I still did like Fulgrim's possession. It sticks with me because I think it started with that really freakin' weird painting screwing with Fulgrim. It's been a while since I read Fulgrim, and even though I felt like I could rip out the first 200 pages and not miss them, the arse end of the book was pretty entertaining IMO. Fulgrim's possession (I believe) became complete when he could not land the finishing blow on Ferrus.

 

And even though it has been a long time since I read Fulgrim, the scene still sticks with me where Horus looks at Fulgrim differently, knowing he has sort of 'lost' his brother, but requires the 'Daemon Fulgrim' to keep the Emperor's Children in line. It was well done, and told me right there that the Daemons definitely NEED us. Chaos does too... it's a symbiotic relationship IMO. They need the materium.

Speaking of which, the portrayal of Iron Warriors was absolutely spot on, by which I mean matching the mental picture of the legion I've had of the legion for years now. The scene in which the IW are causing collateral damage to their "allies" and their sardonic response to Kor Phaeron are pure gold. Also the sheer lack of bolter porn was nice, and no scenes from the point of view of land raiders was certainly good

 

I am re-visiting what chaos wants, and what chaos gets out of being associated, or possessing Astartes, or humans for that matter. I am re-reading Dan Abnett's Sabbat Crusade stuff, including the entire Crusade book as a warm up to re-reading The Lost series (Traitor General (awesome book) and on to Blood Pact).

 

Basically I think Chaos gets a lot out of the relationship, but being associated with Chaos isn't necessarily a one way ticket to the looney bin. It couldn't be or this wouldn't be on going. It would be exhausted, and short lived. It's like Abnett said- there has to be more to Chaos than nailing a baby to your head and killing until bed time.

 

Chaos gets something from all of this, and there is an ongoing symbiotic relationship that makes it worth while for both parts of the whole. Just like Anakawar Sek of the Blood Pact is 'gifted' and had killed MILLIONS of imperial guard without succumbing to some stupid rancid possession, so does Horus benefit from this relationship. It's not just being conned by a typical 'I'm the Devil and have I got an offer for you..." sort of thing.

[Rain]

I didn't like the Fulgrim at all, so agree to disagree there. The painting was just an allusion to Oscar Wilde and not a well done one in my opinion, but yes, the book had its moments but they were too few and far between, and the book stands up very badly to deconstruction, even when considering that it's a universe full of space daemons and rocket machine guns.

 

I think you're referencing a different part of my post with the second part of yours since that quote is just about IW's, but yeah, I never said that the followers don't necessarily get anything out of their dark pacts (which would be ridiculous and demonstrably false), just that the deities don't care about their ultimate welfare. In other words, while yes, there would need to be a carrot on the end of the stick, as long as that carrot looks delicious the gods will use it, even if it is ultimately poisonous.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think people are missing the point.

 

Lorgar got what he wanted, he got EXACTLY what he wanted. Read through the book, even after he turns he does not deny the Emperor's divinity, he simply finds other Gods who welcome his worship.

 

After the HH the Emperor is openly worshipped as a God while restrained upon his golden throne. Everything the Emperor triedto deny has become truth, everything he tried to build, an empire of science and rational truth has become a nightmare of religion and superstition.

 

Lorgar won the Horus Heresy, he punished his Father in the most painful and complete way possible.

[Prot]

I think people are missing the point.

 

Lorgar got what he wanted, he got EXACTLY what he wanted. Read through the book, even after he turns he does not deny the Emperor's divinity, he simply finds other Gods who welcome his worship.

 

After the HH the Emperor is openly worshipped as a God while restrained upon his golden throne. Everything the Emperor triedto deny has become truth, everything he tried to build, an empire of science and rational truth has become a nightmare of religion and superstition.

 

Lorgar won the Horus Heresy, he punished his Father in the most painful and complete way possible.

 

Hmm. IMHO Lorgar got EXACTLY what he asked for. What he wanted? I don't know about that. For 'something he wanted' he certainly had to pushed and prodded by just about every influence around him.

 

As someone previously mentioned it certainly is ironic the very traits he is chastised for apparently would make for a magnificent Astartes commander in the current 40K universe. Ironic.

 

I bet 10 imperial credits Argel Tar turn heroic and fights his daemons! Either that or I imagine it would be a good cue for Sigismund to step in and start handing out some beat downs on the possessed.

[Gree]

I bet 10 imperial credits Argel Tar turn heroic and fights his daemons!

 

Unlikely. At this point Argel Tal has willingly betrayed the Emperor, cooperated in chaos sorcery, openly slew his fellow Astartes brothers and the Custodes, the Emperor's most trusted servants. He's basically been confirmed to be one of the leaders attacking Calth. He is far past any chance of redemption now.

[Prot]

I bet 10 imperial credits Argel Tar turn heroic and fights his daemons!

 

Unlikely. At this point Argel Tal has willingly betrayed the Emperor, cooperated in chaos sorcery, openly slew his fellow Astartes brothers and the Custodes, the Emperor's most trusted servants. He's basically been confirmed to be one of the leaders attacking Calth. He is far past any chance of redemption now.

 

Oh come on now.... Even Horus is citing as saying, "..... sorry.... Daaaad.." with his dying breath after the Emperor's psychic attack.

 

If Darth Vader can seek redemption, anyone can! :P

[Gree]

I bet 10 imperial credits Argel Tar turn heroic and fights his daemons!

 

Unlikely. At this point Argel Tal has willingly betrayed the Emperor, cooperated in chaos sorcery, openly slew his fellow Astartes brothers and the Custodes, the Emperor's most trusted servants. He's basically been confirmed to be one of the leaders attacking Calth. He is far past any chance of redemption now.

 

Oh come on now.... Even Horus is citing as saying, "..... sorry.... Daaaad.." with his dying breath after the Emperor's psychic attack.

 

If Darth Vader can seek redemption, anyone can! :)

 

Both where deathbed redemptions. Even Horus was noted to have a good chance of re-possesion. And Darth Vader has nothing to do with 40k.

[Rain]

The cynic in me (which is like, all of me) says that he will charge the eternity gate and be killed by Sanguinius, feeling regret as he dies and hallucinating that him and Cyrene are running at each other through a field of flowers in slow motion. God I hope I'm wrong. Giving ADB a bit more credit though, maybe he actually won't pull a copout and will write an interesting ending for one of my favorite BL character ever.

[A D-B]

The cynic in me (which is like, all of me) says that he will charge the eternity gate and be killed by Sanguinius, feeling regret as he dies and hallucinating that him and Cyrene are running at each other through a field of flowers in slow motion. God I hope I'm wrong. Giving ADB a bit more credit though, maybe he actually won't pull a copout and will write an interesting ending for one of my favorite BL character ever.

 

I never intended Argel Tal's death to be a mystery (S'fairly obvious how he'll croak, I reckon), but blood of the gods, Rain... You have my sworn promise on the soul of my biggest hero*, that he won't be seeing Cyrene and skipping off into the sunset with her.

 

 

 

 

*Kermit the Frog.