After reading the First Heretic

[Rain]

Well, if you go so far as to invoke the name of Kermit, maybe I'll have to trust you. In all (well almost all) seriousness though, you have a good thing going with these WB books, I'm sure you don't give a damn either way at this point about any individual fan's appraisal of you or your work, but I really think/hope you should keep the more somber tone of TFH for the rest of your heresy books vs. what you have going in SH.

 

I know a lot of people like that, and they can have more in the other NL books, but throw me and the other 4 guys that liked TFH better a bone and keep it less "badass" and more dwelling on the nature of Lorgar and his sons as something other than just soldiers with big awesome future guns that fight for vindication or whatever.

 

Edit: On review, what I wrote reads kind of sounds "not nice" which makes sense considering the source, but to be more clear, it's not that I didn't like SH, it's more that I think it gets a lot more praise than it deserves, especially compared to TFH. Ok that comes off even worse. Ok it's like Kid A. Kid A was good, and I have it in my Ipod but it wasn't a "revolution in alternative music that serves as a line of demarcation between all that came before, and all that comes after" like some seem to think. So there, I compared you to Radiohead, I'm a nice guy like that.

[A D-B]

Well, if you go so far as to invoke the name of Kermit, maybe I'll have to trust you. In all (well almost all) seriousness though, you have a good thing going with these WB books, I'm sure you don't give a damn either way at this point about any individual fan's appraisal of you or your work...

 

Man, I totally care about that. That's why I'm so monumentally unprofessional and comment so much, no matter the feedback. I especially care about appraisals from people with balanced and informed opinions, which (in all seriousness) is one of the many reasons I love this forum. (The others are, in order: to discuss the lore; to steal conversion ideas; to avoid logging into WoW; and for help with painting techniques.)

 

...but I really think/hope you should keep the more somber tone of TFH for the rest of your heresy books vs. what you have going in SH.

 

Definitely. They're very different beasts.

 

I know a lot of people like that, and they can have more in the other NL books, but throw me and the other 4 guys that liked TFH better a bone and keep it less "badass" and more dwelling on the nature of Lorgar and his sons as something other than just soldiers with big awesome future guns that fight for vindication or whatever.

 

Ultimately, I like, well... depth. I like substance. I like themes in fiction that play out through character behaviour and narrative circumstance. While anyone can say that - and it's up for debate whether I nail those desires in my work, natch - it's probably not unfair to say that the HH series inspires a slightly more cerebral line of writing than typical 40K. (Well, it can. Not every novel follows that potential, by their own choice.) I think that's because in the HH series, you're much freer to delve into the reasons and rhymes behind everything, whereas in 40K, it's much more along the lines of "adventures starring Faction X".

 

I mean, there's overlap. I know that, for sure. But you're able to do a lot more in the HH novels, just by the nature of what they are.

 

Even so, I kinda pride myself on the fact that Talos and First Claw (well, and most of my characters) aren't conventionally "badass". They're usually 'just guys'. They lose fights and run away. They struggle. They make bad calls. They tend to lose at least one limb per book, etc. etc.

 

I don't wanna dive too deep into the murky waters of Lake Defending Myself (especially when I'm not disagreeing with you, and you're not accusing me of anything unfair), but the reasons and rhymes behind the lore are what interest me. While I do enjoy a decent fight scene, I prefer them to happen because they have to happen as part of the narrative, or to highlight Character/Faction X's way of doing things. Fights for fights' sakes are the rotten core of licensed fiction.

 

[ / end incredibly pretentious douchebaggery.]

 

 

EDIT: I used way too many brackets, there.

[Rain]

Ultimately, I like, well... depth. I like substance. I like themes in fiction that play out through character behaviour and narrative circumstance. While anyone can say that - and it's up for debate whether I nail those desires in my work, natch - it's probably not unfair to say that the HH series inspires a slightly more cerebral line of writing than typical 40K. (Well, it can. Not every novel follows that potential, by their own choice.) I think that's because in the HH series, you're much freer to delve into the reasons and rhymes behind everything, whereas in 40K, it's much more along the lines of "adventures starring Faction X".

 

Yes, that's precisely what I was getting at. The comparison would I suppose be between a "real" book and a comic or graphic novel. SH, while good really felt too much like batman to me, and I don't mean because of the obvious parallels between batman and Kurze. TFH on the other hand, actually read to me like a tongue in cheek jab at certain classical literature as well as actual theology (I could expand on why, but I'm pretty sure that kind of thing is against board rules).

 

Although I'm not sure if that was intended or just my imposing my own prejudices and experiences onto a text that really was just about Spehss Mehreens. In any case, even if it was accidental, it provides a good deal of depth as well as raising the book from the simple niche of pure genre fiction into something that actually relates to issues extant in the real world, which is to me a marker of good fiction.

 

Edit: In other words even if certain subtext that I picked up in TFH was not really written in by you, the fact that the imagery is evocative enough to bring such subtext up in the mind of the reader involves the reader and is what makes the book good, not necessarily the presence or lack thereof of explicit social commentary. So yeah, good work, seriously.

[Dark Mechanicum]

After reading TFH about....5 times now (with several more on a plane ride ahead, which TFH made first book to come with on the list.) What i'm noticing is that in a direct comparison to SH and TFH: SH was set 10,000 years(100 years) after the heresy and its all failing glory. TFH is set...before and at the Heresy so you get all the badassness of reading history in a 40k novel. When a friend picked me up my 2nd copy by accident his first words were this: So I heard that First Heretic has alot of reasons and awesome character with descriptions into the first "chaos" legion. He picked up his own copy to read as well and he is enjoying it.

 

On the Primarch and his evolution. I'm loving it, i've always seen Erebus and Kor Pheron especially after reading the WB IA in that they are schemers and plotters and want more power. So seeing them as the "masterminds" behind alot of Lorgar does. It isn't surprising: One is the father and the other is the head chaplain. They both compliment each other and well hate each other. The fact that A D-B has actually shown the beginnings in their love/hate relationship is pretty cool on its own.

 

So on Argel Tal's death i'm going to guess killed by Guilliman as he wears an imperial eagle?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

TFH has become my second fave heresy book (sorry ADB, Fulgrim blows me away every time but TFH is a VERY close second).

 

I just love the way Lorgar is portrayed, he's not a general, he's not a souless war machine builing an empire because that's what he was desighned to do. He's so undeniably Human and that's how I've always pictured him. Of all the Primarchs (except perhaps the two that got fragged mysteriously) Lorgar has the most free will and expresses it, he defies his creation as a destroyer of worlds and embraces his own view of himself as a creator of culture.

 

Faith is the single most important aspect of the Human pysche, it drives us as a race, as a culture and while it leads to dark paths it also inspires greatness. Denying faith was perhaps the Emperors biggest mistake, taking away something from Humanity that it needs. The lectitio Divinitas grew because of Human need to have faith in a greater power, worship of the Chaos Gods is fueled by that same desire, a desire magnified and focused in the pysche of Lorgar.

 

heh, I wax lyrical but these are the reasons I collect Word bearers, Grey Knights and Space Wolves. I like Astartes with a Human edge to them.

[Prot]

First off, for the record, I joked about Argel Tal wanting to redeem himself. I was making light of the fact that there is a tendency lately to make note of the fact that during these bro' vs bro' epic battles, there is a lot of: 'I can't believe I'm doing this!' -or- 'Man I used to drink with this guy and work on his 76 Camero, and here I am bashing him with a power sword he made me last night.'

 

Like I said earlier one of the things I truly liked about the book is it had a different pace and tone to it. I LOVE the HH series (could you imagine an epic series of movies...live action? No s*&^$$ CGI. ) But so many of them had the 'line drawn in the sand' moments. It was most prominently done with Abaddon and their little secret society. I just don't want to see a great deal of time spent on that aspect of heresy... it's assumed already.

 

At this point as I reflect on the book I do wonder if we will get to see or hear what Lorgar experienced in his introduction to Chaos.... I don't know if snake dude was there or not? I wonder was this the same snake dude that Magnus was manipulated by?

 

I still think for all of you that say- good for him, he followed his heart.... Do you think he would have went down this route without Erebus and Kor Phaeron?

[minigun762]

I still think for all of you that say- good for him, he followed his heart.... Do you think he would have went down this route without Erebus and Kor Phaeron?

 

I had the sense that if left to his own devices, he would have spent a much longer period of time in contemplation and reflection then he actually did. He comes across to me as a man of thought, not of action, which means that he would have needed some sort of catalyst to spur him onward.

 

Its not to say he wouldn't have done something eventually, but it would have been on a much slower timeline. Considering that the plans that happened took 40ish years, I wonder if he would have acted too slowly to have the same kind of impact in the Heresy.

 

If the question was would he have turned to Chaos without his closest advisors, I'd say yes. He knew just as much of the old ways as they did and would have come to the same basic conclusions on his own.

[Captain Idaho]

Man, I totally care about that. That's why I'm so monumentally unprofessional and comment so much, no matter the feedback. I especially care about appraisals from people with balanced and informed opinions, which (in all seriousness) is one of the many reasons I love this forum. (The others are, in order: to discuss the lore; to steal conversion ideas; to avoid logging into WoW; and for help with painting techniques.)

 

I know it isn't seen as the done thing but I really think more authors should engage the fans of their works. It stirs support and interest whilst the explanatory discussion ensures people come away with the right idea and don't put others off if they personally don't like the work. I only wish other authors did the same.

 

I thank you for your interest on this site and I'm sure others echoe these thoughts.

[Bulwyf]

Some thoughts I had after finally getting a chance to read and finish the book in three days. I am glad to see after reading some of the comments that my feelings are shared by at least some others here.

 

Lorgar: I always had the opinion expressed exactly as ADB put in the novel: here's a primarch that worshiped his dad as a god, was smacked down by dad and blindly groped around to find something else to believe. It is one of the reasons I've never been a fan of the Word Bearers. After reading this, man, I was off base. WAY off base. Being an Orthodox Christian IRL who often has my faith/religion thrown as a negative in academia or in literary worlds like 40k it was beyond refreshing to have the human need for faith expressed so well in a 40k novel. I have never understood why the Emperor was so against religion and faith when it is a vital need for the human experience. You may as well try to outlaw the need for water, food or human facets like curiosity, sexuality or imagination. If the reason is because he wanted to keep the Warp declawed then he failed utterly because scant years after the HH he was openly worshiped anyway.

 

In fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Lorgar basically invent and set the pieces down later used by the Eccliasarchy? Talk about your irony.

 

So here you have Lorgar, spurned by the Big E and yet knowing there must be something else out there. I was unsurprised that Erebus and KP were the ones behind the scenes who basically manipulated him into "discovering" the "real" truths. What I did find a little odd was how strong the bond was between KP and Lorgar. Has there been any real mention in any previous fluff of the primarchs adopted families? I can't think of any adopted parent that actually stuck around and was a key figure in the Legions after their primarch met the Emperor. It made the near ending when Lorgar decides to fight Corax and KP was frantic to stop him believable that not only did he want to stop him from fighting for selfish reasons but also out of honest concern and love for his adopted son.

 

Not something I expected from a twisted bastard like KP but it was nice to see. I always enjoy ADB showing "bad guys" having not lost all their humanity.

 

I echo what some others have said: it was great to read about a primarch that wasn't a Super Soldier General Who Never Loses A Fight EVER. Lorgar's admitted lack of being anything close to that immediately makes him stand out and lends a layer of humanity and emotional scope (yes, I just said that) that you flat out fail to see in almost every other primarch. He asked some questions that myself and I know others have asked for years: why did the Emperor only care about destruction? Why did anything of value have military value? Why was Lorgar considered a "failure" for having a spiritual side? In point of fact you can't help but feel that even leaving religion alone that Lorgar would be a "failure" for simply being a poet/scholar/philosopher instead of the warlord the Emperor demanded he be.

 

Did Lorgar get what he wanted? Perhaps. He was vindicated later on by so many worshiping the Emperor but he failed in trying to unite humanity under one faith. I'm a little surprised no one else commented on this so far. Lorgar didn't want people to just randomly believe in anything, he felt there was TRUTH and all humanity would be better off believing TRUTH. So in that sense he failed utterly because the vast majority of humanity now worships the Emperor and a distinct minority worships Chaos. So there is no unification under his faith, no justification that one faith would give humanity the strength to fight aliens. That fear of losing to aliens is one of the reasons Chaos convinces him to worship them with their "visions" of "future to come" and yet here we are in modern 40k times and despite having at least two major religions dividing the species humans are still fighting off the alien hordes. Imagine if humanity was doing this under one banner as Lorgar wanted. But it was not to be.

 

The two Lost Legions: I wish by the end of the HH that GW will finally give the thumbs up to reveal what precisely happened. I know lore wise GW wanted to leave the mystery intact so people making up random Chapters can say their unique home grown table top guys come from a lost Primarch. I totally get that. However now we have in this book the revelation that these two primarchs were killed and their Legions either eradicated or subsumed into other Legions. So which is it? Are these two primarchs still kicking around somewhere in hiding or are they both dead? What so wrong with them that they had to be put down?

 

It is time to reveal the mystery methinks. I always wondered if they kept the mystery around on some level just to leave the door open for a new TT army from the Lost primarchs come back to get revenge on the Imperium. But now it seems they simply were killed. A little disappointing if that is true.

 

The Emperor: I have said this before and I will say it again. I don't understand how the most powerful psychic in human history could not have some forewarning of the HH and what caused it. How could he not have foreseen that his kids would learn about Chaos on their own if he didn't teach them about it and what was "really" going on behind the scenes? It makes no sense whatsoever. He didn't have a single vision about Horus betraying him and the eventual Heresy? Really? I just don't buy that.

 

On top of that his parenting skills are simple insane. Why would you allow Lorgar to worship you as a god for over a hundred years and not say something? I'm so glad ADB had the character himself ask the question in the novel. You simply show up out of the blue and have another Legion do the dirty work of wiping out a planet just to prove a point? C'mon! I don't understand it at all. Same as how I don't understand how he failed to see why handling Angron like he did would backfire or letting other primarchs do the dirty work without any credit (Iron Warriors, Night Lords) would backfire or setting one primarch above the others wouldn't be a colossal failure.

 

I know as a game company you need reasons to why you have bad guys versus good guys but the Big E has come across the entire HH as an outright buffoon who blithely ignores gigantic neon red flashing warning signals and only belatedly later has to deal with the consequences.

 

Interesting tidbits throughout the novel: I loved the Lorgar/Corax/Curze scene. It was again refreshing to see a primarch not be a great warrior (in terms of other primarchs...for those laughing at Lorgar I do remind you he was cutting through regular Astartes like a knife through butter) and almost get killed for it. Being a gigantic Night Lord fan I still pray we see a HH novel that deals with the Night Lords and explains their reasoning for turning. You can't help but feel there was a past history between Corax and Curze.

 

Custodes: man those guys are something. I find it amazing that they don't know how to fight together as a cohesive unit and instead rely on superb individual skill in battle. Yes, I know they are glorified body guards and not actual soldiers but you think their blood games would teach some unit cohesion.

 

Human characters in the novel: I'm not sure how anyone could think the imagist was dead when the last we see him he was safe on the ship after giving the pict taker to Aquillon. He's obviously being saved by ADB for something more in the next book. Cyrene served her role as the gentle martyr who was killed despite not doing anything wrong on her end so I doubt we'll see her in a touching dying mental scene with Argel Tal.

 

I'd like to see how/if all the human soldiers and Fleet officers stuck with the Word Bearers against the Imperium. I know ADB revealed some discussion among the ranks in scenes with the imagist but was there some secret purge we didn't see in the book among their ranks as well? We know the Word Bearers had to purge some loyalist elements among the Astartes but you almost never hear of purges among Mechanicus/Fleet/Imperial Army ranks.

 

The novel itself: the best in the series sans Horus Rising and False Gods. One of ADB's better novels and further cementing him as my favorite writer in the BL.

[Captain Idaho]

Firstly, the Emperor isn't a dad in the sense we understand it, any more the Primarchs are the fathers of their Legions. After all they didn't seem very concerned about the deaths or discipline of their men beyond human compassion for a lost soldier, barring perhaps Sanguinius It's a common critism on the net that his parenting skills were off. It's more of a mentor thing really, an old hand who feels empathy for his charges, but is still their boss.

 

Secondly, you forget that psychic ability doesn't automatically make someone able to predict the future. The Emperor is actually never quoted as being a seer, and the Chaos Gods were said, from 3rd edition at least, to have been an actual block on the Emperor's power of divination by using their own powers. There is even a piece of fluff that talks about how Horus used his power to block the Emperor from divining that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were days away from reinforcing Terra and turning the siege.

 

And thirdly, most importantly in my book, if you really believe the Emperor is that useless then you cheapen the Chaos gods and other psychics who were his rivals and struggled against him! Obviously the mystery hasn't been revealed yet :lol:

[Bulwyf]

Firstly, the Emperor isn't a dad in the sense we understand it, any more the Primarchs are the fathers of their Legions. After all they didn't seem very concerned about the deaths or discipline of their men beyond human compassion for a lost soldier, barring perhaps Sanguinius It's a common critism on the net that his parenting skills were off. It's more of a mentor thing really, an old hand who feels empathy for his charges, but is still their boss.

 

Secondly, you forget that psychic ability doesn't automatically make someone able to predict the future. The Emperor is actually never quoted as being a seer, and the Chaos Gods were said, from 3rd edition at least, to have been an actual block on the Emperor's power of divination by using their own powers. There is even a piece of fluff that talks about how Horus used his power to block the Emperor from divining that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were days away from reinforcing Terra and turning the siege.

 

And thirdly, most importantly in my book, if you really believe the Emperor is that useless then you cheapen the Chaos gods and other psychics who were his rivals and struggled against him! Obviously the mystery hasn't been revealed yet :lol:

 

Firstly, I never said the Emperor was a dad in the common sense. What I questioned was his common sense. It is laughable that someone could think humiliating or ignoring literal demi gods would not have repercussions. GW/BL has never explained this with any justification and to date in the HH series it still has been unexplained.

 

Secondly, the Emperor was a seer. All of his sons are in some fashion a fragment or avatar of some aspect of the Emperor. Curze had prophetic visions which he gained from his gene seed connection to the Emperor. So it makes no sense that the most powerful psychic in the history of the material universe would have ZERO inkling of a future civil war. This has never been explained. If the Chaos Gods can willy nilly nullify the abilities of psykers when they chose to do so then the Imperium would have been defeated in the HH let alone be able to withstand Chaos for over 10k years.

 

Thirdly, I never said the Emperor was useless. As I repeated above, I question his common sense. The HH has built on existing fluff/lore to portray the Big E as quite possibly the most clueless human being that ever lived. He is the most powerful psyker in the material universe...but he can't foresee the Heresy. And oh, he can't read any treasonous thoughts from either the primarchs or their Astartes or the Dark Mechanicum or anyone connected to the treason.

 

He hates religion because, we assume, he knows it fuels the Warp...but he doesn't see that he will be worshiped as a god. Really? It takes him over one hundred years to realize the Word Bearers are worshiping him? Really? He can't foresee the Eccliasarchy? C'mon now.

 

He spawns twenty demi gods but with the eighteen we know about he shows the ability to communicate effectively with them...oh wait, he fails completely in that regard. He either has almost no contact with them or shows up at seemingly random intervals to meddle with them or tell them what they are doing wrong only to vanish back to Terra.

 

I don't doubt that there is some sort of grand reveal later in the HH series about just why the Big E made so many obvious mistakes and what he really wanted to do but there's only so much that deus ex machina can do. Unless the intention was to force the Horus Heresy to happen then many of his interactions and decisions come across as Barney Fife level incompetence on a (literal) galactic scale.

[Captain Idaho]

Can it not be accepted that there is more to the events or the Emperor's role than we are aware of? It's literature, we shouldn't need everything spelt out for us.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Can it not be accepted that there is more to the events or the Emperor's role than we are aware of? It's literature, we shouldn't need everything spelt out for us.

 

Oh, you KNOW that's not going to fly! Fluffmonsters get cranky when there are holes in the tapestry. ;)

 

Personally, I think it can all be wrapped up into a very delicate recipe of hubris, with a tortilla wrap of denial, a tablespoon of assumption, and a pinch of arrogance for texture.

[Bulwyf]

Can it not be accepted that there is more to the events or the Emperor's role than we are aware of? It's literature, we shouldn't need everything spelt out for us.

 

Did you miss the last part of my post? I concede there probably will be more grand reveals later in the series. What I am questioning AS literature is how much that deus ex machina of an explanation is going to actually fly.

[A D-B]

Can it not be accepted that there is more to the events or the Emperor's role than we are aware of? It's literature, we shouldn't need everything spelt out for us.

 

Did you miss the last part of my post? I concede there probably will be more grand reveals later in the series. What I am questioning AS literature is how much that deus ex machina of an explanation is going to actually fly.

 

And it's a good point, too. Definitely one we're bearing in mind in recent Horus Heresy meetings, and something that'll show up more often at future ones. I think the Emperor's presentation to date has worked well, but it's not something that can carry on the same theme for much longer, and maintain any credulity.

 

To quote some jazz I said on another forum, with apologies for cutting and pasting - Re: The Emperor's presentation so far:

 

It's top of my list for the next HH meeting. The Emperor looking bad in the novels we've had so far isn't my main worry (after all, Alpharius had no ties to him, Lorgar was raised "wrong" and deluded himself, Horus is the Great Betrayer and was the suddenly ignored former favoured son - so their biased anti-Emperor perspectives make a lot of sense to me), but in the future when we deal with the novels closer to Terra and factions on the Imperial side, I really think the Emperor needs to come off in a different manner. His rebuttal of Horus (for example) should be viewed in a different light by those near him, who see the man working so hard for the species that he can focus on little else around him. His abandonment of the Great Crusade isn't to leave Horus under pressure or ignore the Astartes, but to usher in the new future of the human race through the Imperial Webway, and so on. These are all implicit in the setting, but it should come across more from the viewpoints of characters in the position to see it, and thus reinforce it all in the readers' minds.

[caboosebe]

And it's a good point, too. Definitely one we're bearing in mind in recent Horus Heresy meetings, and something that'll show up more often at future ones. I think the Emperor's presentation to date has worked well, but it's not something that can carry on the same theme for much longer, and maintain any credulity.

Then I'm looking forward very much how they are going to solve the 'main event'. I hope that there will be many more novels before that, and I don't even know if they will ever write that fight.

But still, I can understand you are trying to put the Emperor ina diffrent light, but the closer you get to Terra, the more you'll have to mix with the Loyalist point of view and and the Traitors.

So far we had novels focussing mainly on one faction. (And I say mainly as in 75%+).

I'm looking forward how you are going to solve this :D, it's going to be awesome!

 

Also, on the post of the Emperor not knowing.

Tales of Heresy

 

Sister of battle at the ending: 'The Emperor wants this war'

 

Now that's something to make you completly go nuts with debates.

[Bulwyf]

Can it not be accepted that there is more to the events or the Emperor's role than we are aware of? It's literature, we shouldn't need everything spelt out for us.

 

Did you miss the last part of my post? I concede there probably will be more grand reveals later in the series. What I am questioning AS literature is how much that deus ex machina of an explanation is going to actually fly.

 

And it's a good point, too. Definitely one we're bearing in mind in recent Horus Heresy meetings, and something that'll show up more often at future ones. I think the Emperor's presentation to date has worked well, but it's not something that can carry on the same theme for much longer, and maintain any credulity.

 

To quote some jazz I said on another forum, with apologies for cutting and pasting - Re: The Emperor's presentation so far:

 

It's top of my list for the next HH meeting. The Emperor looking bad in the novels we've had so far isn't my main worry (after all, Alpharius had no ties to him, Lorgar was raised "wrong" and deluded himself, Horus is the Great Betrayer and was the suddenly ignored former favoured son - so their biased anti-Emperor perspectives make a lot of sense to me), but in the future when we deal with the novels closer to Terra and factions on the Imperial side, I really think the Emperor needs to come off in a different manner. His rebuttal of Horus (for example) should be viewed in a different light by those near him, who see the man working so hard for the species that he can focus on little else around him. His abandonment of the Great Crusade isn't to leave Horus under pressure or ignore the Astartes, but to usher in the new future of the human race through the Imperial Webway, and so on. These are all implicit in the setting, but it should come across more from the viewpoints of characters in the position to see it, and thus reinforce it all in the readers' minds.

 

Thank you for the reply, ADB.

 

I do hope there are some things shown that reveal clearly why the Emperor took the approach he did with some of the primarchs and why that varied with the others. For instance, why does practically every eventual traitor primarch either get ignored, humiliated or become the necessary but unloved dirty work fall guy versus the primarchs who stayed loyal? Honestly it would be a nice change of pace to have a loyalist primarch's story show that they also got treated shabbily and for whatever reason the writer determines they decided to stay loyal.

 

It does in fact make you wonder why after almost all the primarchs conquered their home worlds (did any of them sans Angron not do that? and you certainly feel he was close to doing just that before the Emperor wiped out his gladiator slave army) they would suddenly obey without question this "father" who in most cases hardly interacts with them. How much loyalty could possibly be expected in these cases?

 

As much as I want to know why as a fan why each of the Traitor primarchs went traitor I would also like to know why some of the Loyalists stayed loyal. I just can't accept (and I am not suggesting this is coming from you or your writing) logically that out of 18 surviving primarchs the only ones who really got rubbed the wrong way were exactly the nine ones that went traitor. I wish the fluff supported what I am about to say but it would be nice if one of the loyal legions were in fact suspected at the time of Horus's betrayal to be joining him as traitors but to the surprise of all they decided to stay loyal. Merely as a counterweight to the "OMG I can't believe THESE GUYS went traitor!" it would be refreshing to see a "OMG I can't believe THESE GUYS stayed loyal when their chance finally came to rebel!" perspective for a loyal legion and primarch.

[Captain Idaho]

Did you miss the last part of my post? I concede there probably will be more grand reveals later in the series. What I am questioning AS literature is how much that deus ex machina of an explanation is going to actually fly.

 

The last part of your post was only a part of the rest of it. It certainly doesn't over ride it all does it? All I'm saying is that I'm being optimistic regarding the whole thing, safe in the knowledge that all will be well with the series.

 

In support of that innanely chirpy attitude, I quote this from A D-B

 

And it's a good point, too. Definitely one we're bearing in mind in recent Horus Heresy meetings, and something that'll show up more often at future ones.

[Bulwyf]

Did you miss the last part of my post? I concede there probably will be more grand reveals later in the series. What I am questioning AS literature is how much that deus ex machina of an explanation is going to actually fly.

 

The last part of your post was only a part of the rest of it. It certainly doesn't over ride it all does it? All I'm saying is that I'm being optimistic regarding the whole thing, safe in the knowledge that all will be well with the series.

 

In support of that innanely chirpy attitude, I quote this from A D-B

 

And it's a good point, too. Definitely one we're bearing in mind in recent Horus Heresy meetings, and something that'll show up more often at future ones.

 

"Innanely chirpy attitude" is a bit much don't you think? I hardly think it is "innane" to point out some rather obvious holes in the plot we're seeing as readers that I might add one of the best writers even concedes is a good point. I have actually discussed several ranging topics in my thoughts on the book and the series at large and you ignored most of them to focus on one aspect.

 

You'll forgive me if I don't share your innate sense of optimism (Pollyannaism actually) that we as readers should "all be safe in the knowledge that all will be well with the series". I certainly HOPE that is the case but I believe it is more than fair to criticize a recurring plot problem within the series at large. If you take questioning that as an educated reader "innanely chirpy" then I have nothing else to say to you and ask to please ignore any future posting of mine.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

It's top of my list for the next HH meeting. The Emperor looking bad in the novels we've had so far isn't my main worry (after all, Alpharius had no ties to him, Lorgar was raised "wrong" and deluded himself, Horus is the Great Betrayer and was the suddenly ignored former favoured son - so their biased anti-Emperor perspectives make a lot of sense to me), but in the future when we deal with the novels closer to Terra and factions on the Imperial side, I really think the Emperor needs to come off in a different manner. His rebuttal of Horus (for example) should be viewed in a different light by those near him, who see the man working so hard for the species that he can focus on little else around him. His abandonment of the Great Crusade isn't to leave Horus under pressure or ignore the Astartes, but to usher in the new future of the human race through the Imperial Webway, and so on. These are all implicit in the setting, but it should come across more from the viewpoints of characters in the position to see it, and thus reinforce it all in the readers' minds.

 

That seems to already be happening. Tales of Heresy, Nemesis, and Mechanicum all showed the Emperor in very different lights from the rest of the series, and all were on or very near to Terra as compared to the locations/timeframes of the other depictions of him. I'm hoping it swings less about making the guy out to be some sort of perfect father figure even from the Loyalist perspective (they don't worship him as a god, why should they view him as one?) but rather show as many sides of the Emperor as possible, so that it's plainly evident that we're dealing with a being as multifaceted in mood and motive as any other human is in spite of his more-than-human attributes, and that it's perfectly okay to see the Emperor as someone capable of caring as well as being capable of being a huge d-bag.

[Commissar Joe]

So on Argel Tal's death i'm going to guess killed by Guilliman as he wears an imperial eagle?

 

I took that to be a reference to Sanguinius and/or the Blood Angels at the Seige of Terra. But, I'm a Blood Angel's player so I would think that :lol:

I liked the tease of Corax's Jump Pack in TFH and how it could have been him as well. I'd also like to commend A D-B for how he wrote the scenes with Corax so that his actions in TFH fit well with the story from the Raven's Flight audio book. Did anyone else notice that?

[nightlordsrock3564]

so cadia, being the headquarters of one of the largest contingent/type of IG forces is really instrumental in the turning of half of the Legio Astartes to Chaos????

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

so cadia, being the headquarters of one of the largest contingent/type of IG forces is really instrumental in the turning of half of the Legio Astartes to Chaos????

 

Essentially. It's also of relevance to note that Cadia was also made ready for the Imperium by that same faction that turned. Ironic, isn't it? ^_^

[Nemisor]

so cadia, being the headquarters of one of the largest contingent/type of IG forces is really instrumental in the turning of half of the Legio Astartes to Chaos????

 

Essentially. It's also of relevance to note that Cadia was also made ready for the Imperium by that same faction that turned. Ironic, isn't it? ;)

 

and that some of those tribes must have survived, as in 40k fluff cadians have violet eyes.. :P

[Captain Idaho]

"Innanely chirpy attitude" is a bit much don't you think? I hardly think it is "innane" to point out some rather obvious holes in the plot we're seeing as readers that I might add one of the best writers even concedes is a good point. I have actually discussed several ranging topics in my thoughts on the book and the series at large and you ignored most of them to focus on one aspect.

 

You'll forgive me if I don't share your innate sense of optimism (Pollyannaism actually) that we as readers should "all be safe in the knowledge that all will be well with the series". I certainly HOPE that is the case but I believe it is more than fair to criticize a recurring plot problem within the series at large. If you take questioning that as an educated reader "innanely chirpy" then I have nothing else to say to you and ask to please ignore any future posting of mine.

 

Well I wouldn’t say I am being blindly optimistic. I have confidence the series will at least try and get things right. Look at the way the series is governed; the authors are brought into meetings about the future of the series etc.

 

Coupled with the fact we have seen hints of the Emperor’s side of things in several novels now, including in The First Heretic. The largest gaping hole is why the Emperor chose to outlaw the knowledge of Gods when they do in fact exist, though we have many speculative theories (myself included). Fill that gap and much of the decisions he made will make a lot more sense.

 

With regards to use of the word “inanely”, I was using self-deprecating humour to lighten the mood. You seem offended? I can see where the wires are crossed though, I used the word “that” instead of “my”, though the sentence still reads (to me) in relation to my previous comment on my attitude towards being optimistic.