After reading the First Heretic

[Ashe Darke]

The things I liked most about this book is it's balls. The amount of stuff Aaron is like 'Yeah I'm claiming dibs on explaining this, this, this and that, ooo and that to'. There are small lines that just are cheeky and I love them. How the Scarus sub-sector got its name. The first guy to say 'Death to the false-emperor', and him being a Nightlord as well. Argel Tal's group being the incident to cause the primarchs to be spread. There's other bits that I can't remember right now. He crammed a lot into this book and like his others its ballsy and makes progress.

 

The portrayal of the Emperor was awesome. Showing that in reality he is just a man is important I feel. The forced obedience of the whole legion was awesome in showing what kind of guy he can be although as it has been mentioned before this isn't the whole image.

 

The second part of the book was just brutal and very well written. The fact it is non-linear is very refreshing and shows a variance in writing technique that I personally think hasn't been seen since Horus Rising which doesn't hold a candle to this in terms of complexity. Prospero Burns brought some different stuff to the table as well and could have topped this until it was poorly executed and became anti-climactic. The Cadia thing was cool and good example of the book's balls. Probably the most loyal planet in 40k was probably the most tainted in 30k? Awesome. Cadia is an interesting planet and this adds more to the history which is in need of some love in my opinion.

 

The Legion trait/flaw of the Word Bearers being their unquestionable loyalty to their primarch (well that was the impression I got anyway) was cool, it also makes them the easiest legion to turn. Convince the guy at the top and then rest will follow.

 

The only thing which I felt was missing and this is entirely my fault is the Erebus and Kor Phareon perspective. I, like many others, assumed from the title that it would be about those two converting Lorgar and maybe showing how they became aware of the Chaos gods in the first place. That's not what this book is about but I get the feeling that it will be explained in another book which is cool but part of me wanted it all to be explained in one book. That we get a whole extra 2 books covering that is cool but it being in there would have topped it off (and made the book huge). So yeah the feeling of disappointment is totally to do with my expectations based on the blurb, title + cover and not a flaw of book itself.

 

So yeah, great book, want him to do more HH books and hopes whoever gets the follow up books treats the characters well and does a good job. Hard act to follow.

[Rik Riorik]

I was waiting to see if my girlie would be getting me this one for Christmas or not and seeing as she didn't I am going to go out and get it faster than two hands in a whorehouse on a Sunday afternoon. It doesn't matter that I've read the entire thread and thus know some of the "spoilage" because in truth I don't think anyone who knows anything about the Word Bearers are in any major doubt as to the major plot and it's general elements.

[Meatman]

- Unexpectedly cool: Corax. This dude is deadly. I have a whole new vision of this guy in my head.... deadly steel bladed jet pack? Cool. I'd love to draw this guy.

 

 

Quoted for truth.

[Captain Idaho]

The things I liked most about this book is it's balls. The amount of stuff Aaron is like 'Yeah I'm claiming dibs on explaining this, this, this and that, ooo and that to'. There are small lines that just are cheeky and I love them. How the Scarus sub-sector got its name. The first guy to say 'Death to the false-emperor', and him being a Nightlord as well. Argel Tal's group being the incident to cause the primarchs to be spread. There's other bits that I can't remember right now. He crammed a lot into this book and like his others its ballsy and makes progress.

 

The portrayal of the Emperor was awesome. Showing that in reality he is just a man is important I feel. The forced obedience of the whole legion was awesome in showing what kind of guy he can be although as it has been mentioned before this isn't the whole image.

 

The second part of the book was just brutal and very well written. The fact it is non-linear is very refreshing and shows a variance in writing technique that I personally think hasn't been seen since Horus Rising which doesn't hold a candle to this in terms of complexity. Prospero Burns brought some different stuff to the table as well and could have topped this until it was poorly executed and became anti-climactic. The Cadia thing was cool and good example of the book's balls. Probably the most loyal planet in 40k was probably the most tainted in 30k? Awesome. Cadia is an interesting planet and this adds more to the history which is in need of some love in my opinion.

 

The Legion trait/flaw of the Word Bearers being their unquestionable loyalty to their primarch (well that was the impression I got anyway) was cool, it also makes them the easiest legion to turn. Convince the guy at the top and then rest will follow.

 

 

The only thing which I felt was missing and this is entirely my fault is the Erebus and Kor Phareon perspective. I, like many others, assumed from the title that it would be about those two converting Lorgar and maybe showing how they became aware of the Chaos gods in the first place. That's not what this book is about but I get the feeling that it will be explained in another book which is cool but part of me wanted it all to be explained in one book. That we get a whole extra 2 books covering that is cool but it being in there would have topped it off (and made the book huge). So yeah the feeling of disappointment is totally to do with my expectations based on the blurb, title + cover and not a flaw of book itself.

 

So yeah, great book, want him to do more HH books and hopes whoever gets the follow up books treats the characters well and does a good job. Hard act to follow.

 

I agree it was a great book but I didn't feel the Emperor was just a man at all. I must have missed that part, can you please elaborate?

[Ashe Darke]

Sure. Years ago at my LGS people were under this mind set, if the Marines are huge and the Primarchs even bigger then the Emperor must be even bigger still. Then my mate who was working there at the time was like why? No where does it say he is this huge person, all we know is that he is the most powerful human psyker ever. It doesn't mean he has super human proportions and there is no reason to think otherwise, sure he may be able to convince people he may look that way via his powers but all he ever was is just a powerful psyker, not a genetically engineered beast.

 

In fact in the book Aaron uses the line 'just a man' to describe the Emperor.

 

So yeah what I meant is just his proportions compared to the Primarchs and Marines.

[Captain Idaho]

Did we see the Emperor in this book though? I don't recall seeing anywhere about his stature, but I may have missed that paragraph (or just not read it in detail enough).

 

I agree he won't be bigger than the Primarches, but he is certainly similar in stature in some depictions of him.

 

***EDIT*** Oh yeah, are you thinking about the description of him being that of all men. Certainly thought he wasn't just a man here, but who you see isn't just a man.

[Ashe Darke]

Well I imagine that realistically he's just a powerful psyker. No other psykers get bigger in stature dependent on their powers. Malcador is very powerful and just man sized. There are some instances where he is implied to be bigger, The Last Church for example but given his powers and the fact we know he can alter how people see him so what's to stop him from making people think he looks bigger to make the Imperium look all great and powerful.

 

To be honest we've not been told enough about him to be sure. In Rogue Trader he was just man, I don't think he was even a psyker, he just got stuff done.

[Marshal Rohr]

The books mentions how when the marines see the Emperor he is huge and Primarch sized, but when Lorgar sees him he is normal sized. I think he psychically projects different images of himself depending on the viewer.

[Ju'kosian]

The books mentions how when the marines see the Emperor he is huge and Primarch sized, but when Lorgar sees him he is normal sized. I think he psychically projects different images of himself depending on the viewer.

My thoughts exactly. Or maybe people see him (his aura) like they want him to be..

[Bulwyf]

I've always read into the fluff/lore and artistic representations of him that the Big E was in fact just as large or larger than the Primarchs...if the mood suited him. The Emperor is essentially a living Warp entity. I always assumed we as readers/gamers were to infer that he was so powerful that if he wanted you to believe he was larger than life then by the nature of the Warp he could bend reality to make it real. And if he wanted to appear regular man sized then he could project that aura and be powerful enough as a self contained Warp entity to make that reality as well.

[Captain Idaho]

I always thought he was as large as a Primarch, though I would imagine Bulwyf's post abobe to be a plausible explanation.

 

@ Bulwyf: I was hoping you would comment on our dicussion on the previous page, as I believe you had got the wrong end of the stick in regards to a post of mine and I wanted to make sure everything between Ultramarine and Nightlord. :)

[Frater Uriah]

Or you could look at it from the descriptions of Magnus the Red, who was of no determinate size. The Emperor needn't be either. I'm not certain if I buy the sentient warp entity bit: according to The Lost and the Damned, way back in the late 80s, and supported in much fluff since, he was the conglomeration of the spirits of the ancient, warp-attuned shamans of prehistoric earth, but nothing ever states that he is inhuman- as a point of fact, that would defeat his very purpose. In The Lightning Tower, He is described as a 'genetically advantaged post-human,' as are his sons. I think this is an acceptable definition of what the Emperor is.

 

Though I do agree that the Emperor's stature, or what he even looked like, are certainly determined by whomever is viewing him, or what the Emperor Himself wishes his audience to see. If he were a massive, nine-foot giant of a man, he'd have had terrible troubles in the Roman period even attempting to fit in.

[Ashe Darke]

I'm re-reading this at the moment and I've found a bit of a plot hole. On page 201 they state that they manage to get the Orfeo's Lament's Geller Fields active again and yet on page 317 (earlier on in the timeline) we see Argel Tal order Word Bearers to destroy the Geller Field generators because the captain would never agree to lowering them herself. Admittedly we don't see the squads destroy it but when you have someone go down there with the order to destroy it and then moments later the field goes down you have to assume they did it. The only other thing I can think of is that the same powers that brought them back to life also fixed the generator which just sounds a bit odd to me. Maybe they just found a big on/off button down there?

 

Not a book ruining thing, it's just something that I noticed when re-reading.

[Bulwyf]

I always thought he was as large as a Primarch, though I would imagine Bulwyf's post abobe to be a plausible explanation.

 

@ Bulwyf: I was hoping you would comment on our dicussion on the previous page, as I believe you had got the wrong end of the stick in regards to a post of mine and I wanted to make sure everything between Ultramarine and Nightlord. :D

 

It is water under the bridge, no hard feelings.

[Captain Idaho]

I always thought he was as large as a Primarch, though I would imagine Bulwyf's post abobe to be a plausible explanation.

 

@ Bulwyf: I was hoping you would comment on our dicussion on the previous page, as I believe you had got the wrong end of the stick in regards to a post of mine and I wanted to make sure everything between Ultramarine and Nightlord.

 

It is water under the bridge, no hard feelings.

 

Many thanks. Did read back my post again and it can be confusing. Perhaps if people could read my mind they would know what I was on about! :P

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm re-reading this at the moment and I've found a bit of a plot hole. On page 201 they state that they manage to get the Orfeo's Lament's Geller Fields active again and yet on page 317 (earlier on in the timeline) we see Argel Tal order Word Bearers to destroy the Geller Field generators because the captain would never agree to lowering them herself. Admittedly we don't see the squads destroy it but when you have someone go down there with the order to destroy it and then moments later the field goes down you have to assume they did it. The only other thing I can think of is that the same powers that brought them back to life also fixed the generator which just sounds a bit odd to me. Maybe they just found a big on/off button down there?

 

Not a book ruining thing, it's just something that I noticed when re-reading.

 

More likely they stuck a bolter in some tech-adept's face and told him to turn them off.

[Rik Riorik]

I first waited until Christmas to see if my fiancé got it for me, then finally ordered it a week into January and then had it sitting at the post office for another week as my bike broke down and I couldn't be bothered to fix it or walk to the post office. Then I've been reading a few chapters here and there between uni and work.

 

But I finished it last night when I missed the ferry from work and had to spend half an hour waiting in a boring terminal. Was a good read. This is what I take away from it:

 

*I do think it shouldn't quite have fitted into just the one book as it did feel like there was so much that could have been told that wasn't.

*Argel Tal was a man with many questions at every turn that he had troubles getting answered. It did feel a bit like Gotrek Gurnisson's "ham sized fist" towards the end ie that you knew Argel Tal was going to be asking questions and that by and large he wasn't going to get any answers just as you knew Gotrek's "ham sized fist" would be mentioned several times over the course of a Slayer book and in those exact same words. Its a note more than an actual critisism, as evidently it was there to convey the great secrecy, but I found it tiresome.

*I do think Lorgar turned too easily and the other primarchs as well. It might be because of the limitations of the sheer scope of what needed to be told didn't fit with the amount of pages but reading throught it, it definetly felt like events took the turns they did in large because they had to and not because they story telling led it there. Lorgar in large believes and does what the greater narrative needs him to but we don't get enough of an insight into his problems coming to grips with what he felt he needed to do. The other primarchs, obviously it wasn't their book and so I do think concessions have to be made.

*You don't ever really get much in the way of respect for Lorgar do you? Manipulated here and there by lesser beings, reprimanded and beaten down by father and brothers alike and in large questioned by the main character of the book. He is easily the sorriest excuse for a Primarch and a leader yet to feature. This seems to be the authors intent and it does make the fall even more tragic but I went into the book hoping to like Lorgar at the end of it but I am left with disdain the predominant emotion. So a bit disappointed with that.

*It is the first actual book in the series to slightly sicken me. But it did do so in a good way. I love the Word Bearers concept and their tragic secession from the Imperium. I did feel the sense of lost purpose and the need for a new one could again have done with a bit more in the way of explanation though. But the Gal Vorbak and their changes and Argel Tal's perceptions and feelings in all of this were especially unnerving.

*I now have a new found "fluff love" for Possessed and will try and fit them in to my army now and again simply because they rocked my boat.

 

 

Fulgrim is still my favourite book but First Heretic does jump in somewhere in the top five.

[randian]

I was somewhat annoyed that Argel Tal didn't seem to be really angry at Lorgar. I'd be really pissed at being used as a guinea pig and getting possessed, no matter how Lorgar tried to spin it.

 

Lorgar may be a sorry excuse for a Primarch, but the Word Bearers still ignore his flaws. From what I can tell, in the current day he is a god in Word Bearers theology, higher than the mere daemons that serve the Chaos Gods. I can't tell where the "Lorgar is the Chosen of Chaos" bit comes from. If it's from Lorgar himself (in the Book of Lorgar), rather than after the fact from his followers, that makes him an ace narcissist on top of his other personality flaws.

[Captain Idaho]

I was somewhat annoyed that Argel Tal didn't seem to be really angry at Lorgar. I'd be really pissed at being used as a guinea pig and getting possessed, no matter how Lorgar tried to spin it.

 

Lorgar may be a sorry excuse for a Primarch, but the Word Bearers still ignore his flaws. From what I can tell, in the current day he is a god in Word Bearers theology, higher than the mere daemons that serve the Chaos Gods. I can't tell where the "Lorgar is the Chosen of Chaos" bit comes from. If it's from Lorgar himself (in the Book of Lorgar), rather than after the fact from his followers, that makes him an ace narcissist on top of his other personality flaws.

 

It was part of their genetic make up to go along with what he said though. :D

[A D-B]

I was somewhat annoyed that Argel Tal didn't seem to be really angry at Lorgar. I'd be really pissed at being used as a guinea pig and getting possessed, no matter how Lorgar tried to spin it.

 

Lorgar may be a sorry excuse for a Primarch, but the Word Bearers still ignore his flaws. From what I can tell, in the current day he is a god in Word Bearers theology, higher than the mere daemons that serve the Chaos Gods. I can't tell where the "Lorgar is the Chosen of Chaos" bit comes from. If it's from Lorgar himself (in the Book of Lorgar), rather than after the fact from his followers, that makes him an ace narcissist on top of his other personality flaws.

 

The First Heretic is Lorgar right at the beginning of his journey, and at the lowest point of his entire existence. His faith is shattered, he's almost directionless, and he barely knows anything about the truth of the universe.

 

It's the first novel about him. Not the only and definitive one. It's his first steps towards ascension, not the entire rise to glory. He's the one primarch that really finds himself when he becomes fully corrupted by Chaos.

[Dammeron]

Of all the "traitor" primarchs I expected to feel absolutely zero sympathy for it was Lorgar. Ideological extremism (in particular religious fanaticism) is something I have very little time for, and Lorgar exemplifies that characteristic to the Nth degree (at least traditionally).

 

How pleasantly surprised was I to find not some snarling, frothing fundamentalist type but a quiet philosopher; not so much a priest as a considered metaphysician in a poetic, William Blake or John Milton vein. Not only did I find him considered and sympathetic, but also the most believable, well rounded of the primarchs. His decision to accept the "truth" of Chaos is not simply a matter of hubris, character flaw and deception, but comes across as actuallt considered and a pretty viable alternative considering the sheer monstrosity mandated by the Emperor early in the book.

 

Easily my favourite of the HH series thus far.

[randian]

a pretty viable alternative considering the sheer monstrosity mandated by the Emperor early in the book.

Monstrosity? The Emperor razed a city. He didn't execute the inhabitants. By contrast, Lorgar was willingly engaged in human sacrifice and blood rituals on Cadia. While he spent time in the Eye, he was surely both witness and party to far more gruesome and evil things, yet he remained Chaos' enthusiastic pawn. Such a change in moral outlook goes far beyond monstrous.

[Dammeron]

a pretty viable alternative considering the sheer monstrosity mandated by the Emperor early in the book.

Monstrosity? The Emperor razed a city. He didn't execute the inhabitants. By contrast, Lorgar was willingly engaged in human sacrifice and blood rituals on Cadia. While he spent time in the Eye, he was surely both witness and party to far more gruesome and evil things, yet he remained Chaos' enthusiastic pawn. Such a change in moral outlook goes far beyond monstrous.

 

 

The Ultramarines open fire into the crowds gathered to protest the demolishment of their city and the obliteration of their culture within the first twenty pages of the story. He doesn't just destroy a city; he raizes an entire culture which his son helped to foster just to make a point to that one individual which in turn has the opposite effect of what he (seemingly) intended; hurling Lorgar headlong into the arms of Chaos.

 

As for Lorgar engaging in blood rituals and human sacrifice, this is different from his allotted purpose in service to the emperor how exactly? Billions upon billions are slaughtered throughout the so called "Great Crusade" in the name of the Emperor's purported "truth;" they are as much ideological sacrifices as any Lorgar commits in the name of Chaos. I doubt it makes much difference to those being slaughtered whether they are being slaughtered in the name of the Emperor's naturalistic regime or the more supernatural belief in Chaos and its daemons, divinities etc. The raw fact of the matter is Lorgar simply switches dynamic from one icon in whose name he is forced to murder and commit acts of wanton genocide to another in whose name he is obliged to commit murder and wanton genocide.

 

In terms of "real world" morality, this is entirely monstrous whether it's the mass genocides committed in the Emperor's name or the ritual sacrifices demanded by Chaos, but within the constraints of the 40K universe and given that Lorgar and his kin are effectively created to kill and suppress, Lorgar can be seen as consciously transcending his allotted purpose in the interests of seeking out truth rather than accepting the one imposed on him. The fact that it involves conscious murder is incidental and a pretty absurd basis to condemn him on considering that such was his single function from birth and is an accepted part of not only his existence, not only every single one of his brother Primarchs, but practically every individual who exists beneath the Emperor's "Imperium." This is part of the grandiose hideousness of the 40K universe; there are no "good guys;" it's simply a case of deciding between the various evils and insanities the universe provides, whether it's the grand metaphysic malevolence of Chaos or the oppressive, politicking, theological oppression of the Imperium.

[Captain Idaho]

The Ultramarines didn't just open fire on the populace for the fun of it. They were there to keep order and evacuate the cities inhabitants to safety. When resistance broke out and people fought against the Emperor's order, what do you expect of super human, super dedicated killing machines?

 

And remember you are seeing the events as they occurred from the perspective of the Word Bearers and the former citizens of that world.

 

Trying to justify unholy worship because the Crusade spans a universe with associated wars and bloodshed completely belittles the accomplishments and purpose of the day.

 

Even by today's standards, we can see the reason behind the Great Crusade and apply moral justifications to it and it's goals, but worship/servitude of evil creatures and the acts committed in their name for personal glory cannot be so easily justified. The is a rational reason behind the Crusade and when a nasty act is committed you can write it off as for the greater good of the future of humanity. Chaos worshipping is generally a purely selfish measure and the nasty things that occur aren't for the good of humanity, but you and a creature of the Warp.

 

So whilst I agree that some of the things that go on in 40K are horrific, that doesn't make Chaos worship and fighting the Crusade comparable in any moral sense on any but the most superficial grounds.

[Rik Riorik]

I guess a lot of us don't quite understand, from the detailing of the book, how the descent into Chaos becomes something which is not only accepted but how this state is reached by way of logic, argumentation or deceit. It just is. The wholesale descent into Chaos worship is achieved rather a bit too easily for my tastes. I can see all the small things the author does to basically say "this is one of the reasons this happens", and I can see how someone could feel that all these taken together makes further delving into the events if not unecessary then not pressingly needed but it just doesn't cut it for me personally.

 

If the Word Bearers follow Lorgar by dint of hierarchy and/or genetics, I can almost dig that, but I want to know how Lorgar falls. I want to know how this super being, despite being the biggest cry baby of all the primarchs, is convinced he is taking the right path. He might be a sobbing, destraught primarch but I refuse to believe he is an easily swayed idiot fool. If Lorgar is supposed to be intellectual I want to see him swayed by intelligent argumentation. I want to see him convinced and I felt that bit was very much lacking. But perhaps that is for another book.