Captain Idaho Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 To nip this discussion in the bud (from my perspective) I think we shall just have to accept we won't quite see eye to eye on this one. I think we all agree that Lorgar did some immoral things, but just don't agree with whether the Emperor's actions are equal to it on a moral stance. Otherwise we could go on forever! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2644745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 To nip this discussion in the bud (from my perspective) I think we shall just have to accept we won't quite see eye to eye on this one. I think we all agree that Lorgar did some immoral things, but just don't agree with whether the Emperor's actions are equal to it on a moral stance. Otherwise we could go on forever! :) I concur, because the debate itself is ultimately subjective. :lol: Still, thank you for the discussion without flamefesting. Always great to find good conversation. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2645022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 To nip this discussion in the bud (from my perspective) I think we shall just have to accept we won't quite see eye to eye on this one. I think we all agree that Lorgar did some immoral things, but just don't agree with whether the Emperor's actions are equal to it on a moral stance. Otherwise we could go on forever! ;) I concur, because the debate itself is ultimately subjective. :P Still, thank you for the discussion without flamefesting. Always great to find good conversation. ;) No, the pleasure was mine; thank you for understanding my posts are not meant to be taken too seriously and often have a bit of tongue in cheek in them. Of course there is an element of serious discussion in there somewhere, but not at the expence of not enjoying the discussion. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2645645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I finished the book in one day. ;) I suspected that Argel would die on Calth actually, given that it is referenced at the end of the book. He's probably one of my favorite 40k characters to be honest, he just has such a crappy run of it. The whole book was great in my opinion, I've done a big review for it before so I won't go too far into that. What I would like to see honestly, with his death, is SOME level of redemption for him. this is a man as he stood, preparing to betray those he called brothers, with a bracelet from his sister around his wrist, asking for forgiveness from those he was about to betray. Yes, he is possessed, yes, he has made the wrong decisions, but at his core I honestly wouldn't say Argel is *THAT* evil. If anything he is human... too human. He has the same problem Lorgar does, he trusts too much, he is willing to give in to the commands of others too much. Certainly him running in the fields with Cyrene isn't something to be expected from a 40k novel with his death, but to reference his regrets in life, perhaps to have realizations, perhaps to remember those who he feels responsible for killing or betraying, would be a good way to see him off into the warp for his soul to be annihilated and merely brought back into the warp. But to be fair, if he lives, which is unlikely given A D-B just said he won't, I'll make a Daemon Prince out of him for 40k ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2656297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I think redemption would be unlikely, simply because that's what you expect or hope for for just about every "fallen" character. I think it would be too cheesey really. More appropriate would be a violent death in service of his uncaring, thirsting Gods. It's what Chaos is all about. Besides, he is hardly an innocent either. I think he needs to be punished. Not just for moral grounds, but because it illustrates nicely the uncaring nature of Chaos and the merciless nature of the Imperium's tolerance. Hell, the best end for him I can think is he "betrays" his Gods (that's now 2 betrayals) in a final act of compassion or whatever then is "betrayed" himself by the Ultramarines, who execute him as a traitor. Very poetic and realistic reactions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2656320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I think redemption would be unlikely, simply because that's what you expect or hope for for just about every "fallen" character. I think it would be too cheesey really. More appropriate would be a violent death in service of his uncaring, thirsting Gods. It's what Chaos is all about. Besides, he is hardly an innocent either. I think he needs to be punished. Not just for moral grounds, but because it illustrates nicely the uncaring nature of Chaos and the merciless nature of the Imperium's tolerance. Hell, the best end for him I can think is he "betrays" his Gods (that's now 2 betrayals) in a final act of compassion or whatever then is "betrayed" himself by the Ultramarines, who execute him as a traitor. Very poetic and realistic reactions. That good sir, would be a most fitting end. Unlikely, but fitting. I'd enjoy reading that, trying to switch sides, and getting topped in the process. Watch men! This is how a real man dies!.... Betraying people too often! :wallbash: Edit: Also, on one quick note. Just because a characterful may be mindful of their actions as they die, most certainly doesn't mean A: That their death isn't grizzly and bloody, or B: They come to the conclusion they were wrong. Argel, even in death, even if thinking of the choices he made, even if thinking of the results of said actions, may very well go "but in the end... I have no regrets, it is as it should be.", well, that'd be inside his head, outside would be him'n'Raumn screaming in agony as they get torn in half, ya'see? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2656325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Oh, that kind of redemption! Yeah I can enjoy that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2656707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Oh, that kind of redemption! Yeah I can enjoy that. Yea, I'd hardly think Argel would die in a bed, laying there going "Boo hoo", and then dying after crying a bit, getting a bit emotional. He's going to die violently, he's going to die in a bloody fashion, that is almost guarenteed. The question really becomes what will be going through his mind at his final moments. If he dies of course, though that seems increasingly likely :lol:. Maybe ADB is screwing with us though, and maybe he is yet still in the Maelstrom... serving Kor Pharon... By the Dark Gods I hope he dies, not because I dislike the character, but because the idea of him being stuck under Kor Pharon for 10,000 years is highly distressing :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2656850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I think redemption would be unlikely, simply because that's what you expect or hope for for just about every "fallen" character. I think it would be too cheesey really. More appropriate would be a violent death in service of his uncaring, thirsting Gods. It's what Chaos is all about. This is what I want to see. Argel Tal going into battle, and he fights a dreadnought. The dreadnought picks him up and curshes his skull, killing him instantly. The horror people would feel at such a callous and discourteous death would be brilliant. There is no last thoughts, simply death, and many people would feel the true nature of Chaos as the Dark Gods roar in laughter... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2657155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I think redemption would be unlikely, simply because that's what you expect or hope for for just about every "fallen" character. I think it would be too cheesey really. More appropriate would be a violent death in service of his uncaring, thirsting Gods. It's what Chaos is all about. This is what I want to see. Argel Tal going into battle, and he fights a dreadnought. The dreadnought picks him up and curshes his skull, killing him instantly. The horror people would feel at such a callous and discourteous death would be brilliant. There is no last thoughts, simply death, and many people would feel the true nature of Chaos as the Dark Gods roar in laughter... I would still like to have a moment of realisation, like we see his consciousness in the warp in a final passage, where realisation dawns on him that his servitude means nothing to his gods who reward him by consuming his soul. Very callous but it would remind people reading that he wasn't completely innocent and served evil masters... I only say this because there has been a muddying of the waters lately of just what being a Chaos follower really means. This is cool, of course, as we are seeing a different side to the universe we all love so much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2657476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I would still like to have a moment of realisation, like we see his consciousness in the warp in a final passage, where realisation dawns on him that his servitude means nothing to his gods who reward him by consuming his soul. Very callous but it would remind people reading that he wasn't completely innocent and served evil masters... I only say this because there has been a muddying of the waters lately of just what being a Chaos follower really means. This is cool, of course, as we are seeing a different side to the universe we all love so much. Have you read Dark Apostle? In it, there is a character developed over about half a chapter. I say half a chapter because he is remorselessly killed (coincidentally, he was also killed by a dreadnought) after becoming someone you could actually see existing, an experienced soldier who sees this as just another tough war. When he died, I felt this shock of 'oh'. I wasn't expecting it and it set up a very strong mental image of the nature of the Dark Gods - they really don't care how strong or experienced you are, if you dieing amuses them, don't expect to live long. This was further cemented by a short story in Heroes of the Space Marines, where a Black LEgionaire hunts down the same Imperial Fist over and over and over, each time he is killed his geneseed is used to make a new marine who the Black Legionaire kills. The Black Legionaire gets tired of this and attempts suicide, so the Dark Gods turn one of his squadmates into a spawn and make his mortal wound an ignored one. The Black Legionaire bows to the will of the Dark Gods and kills the Imperial Fist before returning to his ship to wait for the next hunt. The Chaos Gods don't really care what you feel or think, so long as you amuse them. Would Argel Tal have enough time to feel remorse? Only if it amused the Chaos Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2660293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Awesome. Me thinks I would enjoy those stories. I like to think, for literary purposes, the Chaos Gods whould savour the taste of Argel Tal's realisation. It would be a great device to show the audience how the Chaos Gods really view their servants (i.e. Playthings) and it would hit those of us who get to appreciate his character all the harder in some ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2660659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Awesome. Me thinks I would enjoy those stories. I like to think, for literary purposes, the Chaos Gods whould savour the taste of Argel Tal's realisation. It would be a great device to show the audience how the Chaos Gods really view their servants (i.e. Playthings) and it would hit those of us who get to appreciate his character all the harder in some ways. Or after he dies, Argel is ascended to Daemonhood! Yaaay! And everyone eats popcorn! ... Popcorn for all! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2660748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Awesome. Me thinks I would enjoy those stories. I like to think, for literary purposes, the Chaos Gods whould savour the taste of Argel Tal's realisation. It would be a great device to show the audience how the Chaos Gods really view their servants (i.e. Playthings) and it would hit those of us who get to appreciate his character all the harder in some ways. True, true... It would have to be written exceptionally well, but that shouldn't be a problem. I still prefer him dying rather suddenly, but it's a matter of personal taste, so it's all gravy :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2661760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I loved this novel. Easily one of the best HH ones so far, up there with Legion, Flight of the Eisenstein and Galaxy in Flames for me. Argel Tal is a great character in that hes kinda a good guy at heart, but his loyalty to Lorgar and his Legion (plus some unexpected events) outweigh his conscience. And the way the possessed are portrayed is awesome. I always thought of them as a "puppet" body completely taken over by a Daemon, but this "shared" body idea is way cooler in my opinion. The one thing I didn't like was Kor Phaeron. I always imagined him as some super powerful awesome Astartes guy, but now hes just a crazy old person in power armour...Erebus is my new favourite. :P All I want for the 'Bearers now is a good Battle for Calth, and some Siege of Terra action with Lorgar. Good to see the Word Bearers are actually in a good book for once (I won't name the one that starts with a B and ends with a Attle for the Abyss). Oh, and I don't want Argel to die!! Tollen Sendek's death was sudden enough for me! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2661893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Awesome. Me thinks I would enjoy those stories. I like to think, for literary purposes, the Chaos Gods whould savour the taste of Argel Tal's realisation. It would be a great device to show the audience how the Chaos Gods really view their servants (i.e. Playthings) and it would hit those of us who get to appreciate his character all the harder in some ways. True, true... It would have to be written exceptionally well, but that shouldn't be a problem. I still prefer him dying rather suddenly, but it's a matter of personal taste, so it's all gravy :P You're probably right you know, a sudden death is subtle enough to send a message to the audience that speaks of the uncaring Chaos Gods without over stating things. Probably a better end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2661961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Awesome. Me thinks I would enjoy those stories. I like to think, for literary purposes, the Chaos Gods whould savour the taste of Argel Tal's realisation. It would be a great device to show the audience how the Chaos Gods really view their servants (i.e. Playthings) and it would hit those of us who get to appreciate his character all the harder in some ways. True, true... It would have to be written exceptionally well, but that shouldn't be a problem. I still prefer him dying rather suddenly, but it's a matter of personal taste, so it's all gravy :D You're probably right you know, a sudden death is subtle enough to send a message to the audience that speaks of the uncaring Chaos Gods without over stating things. Probably a better end. Depends on how the Chaos Gods feel tbh. The feeling of helplessness from their follower after he's damned himself can certainly be satisfying. Its like beer or wine. You sip wine. You drink beer. The question is, is Argel Beer, or Wine? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2661978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 ;) Argel Tal sounds like a ale. So out of the 2 it would probably be beer! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214386-after-reading-the-first-heretic/page/7/#findComment-2662656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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