5th edition BA vs SW

[Quillen]

And as I said above, Blood Angles are straight foward kids army. CHARGE!!!! and if tey get that charge they win. Space Wolves is harder to run. You have to think it through, but we have the best troops in the game. Add in some TWC with Heroe and suddenly we have options. Have a Long Fang pack killing tanks or gimping squads before they reach melee range and we are even better. Options.

 

I love 40k but tacticly it's not all that complacated. It's really very basic. The trick is making the best out of those tactics that are not all that amazing. That is why I love Space Wolves (amoung other things).

 

Blood Angles has always been charge and win. No depth. I have a friend that plays them as Standard marines. And he does amazing. Cause few people expect him to try and slug it out at range, and when they do get too close he can charge. And then you have their demon prince. Come on. How unbalanced is this guy. He raids arounf in a transport always. I never see him not in a transport. Almost always a LR so he gets where he can eat a squad before anything can happen to him. It's an army very forgiving to someone with little to no skill. And for someone who digs tactics it's not that versitile.

 

That is the difference really. Space Wolves can be played alot of different ways and can be a master in each. Blood Angles are Masters of assault and only good in it that way, unless you really make the list for slugging it out. And then, there is lists way better at slugging it out. It is forgiving thou. Get 2 or 3 charges off and you win. Which the kids at locals stores love.

[Decoy]

While I won't quite agree with Quillen's tone, I tend to agree with the message being conveyed. Blood Angels, by and large, are an army that simply must move forward to win. BA wins within the 2" zone, where Wolves can win from the 24+" zone. While I won't go so far as to say that BA armies are easy to play (mostly because of the virtue of being incredibly hard to build a solid list from the dex), I will say that they're fairly predictable. BA armies consist of exactly one trick: Move forward.

 

Since Wolves have the versatility mentioned prior, we have every ability to counter the average BA list. A block of Wolves with well-mixed weaponry and designated roles will systematically annihilate a BA list as it moves across the board, even taking into account those absurdly annoying (if ineffective) Baal Predators. The 24" range is our killzone, and in order for the Angels to have a chance to beat us, they -have- to go through that 24" range (unless they're deepstriking in, which is all the better for our rapidfire.) Finally, even once the BA have waded through our superior firepower, they have to contest with one of the 'ardest armies in the game in close combat. Assaulting Space Wolves? You -might- live. Being assaulted by them? Kiss your squad goodbye. Wolves (specifically Grey Hunters) are the best Troops choice in the game. We're as good on offense as on defense, and there's a good chance there's two squads of Hunters for every one of the BA Death-Squads. Solid tactical maneuvering on the part of the Wolves will result in a BA rout almost every game.

 

I will say that when it comes down to it, BA tend to be a one-trick pony, and that trick is Assault. If they can't win in that particular arena, there's a damned good chance that the BA won't win at all. It's very point-and-click, and as much as some folk would try to say that BA armies are tactical... they really aren't. There's only one way to solidly win with BA, and if you can shut them down in the Assault arena (with us Wolves being one of the better armies capable of doing so), the BA may as well pack it in and go home, because they have nothing left. In a way, I almost feel sorry for the BA just because of that.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I dont think anyone can make a good case that Mephiston is any more broken than a Saga Lord on a Thunderwolf mount running with a squad of TWC. Of course they all have stormshields too. Some even run two sets. I don't see SW as a hard army to play. You've got cheap Grey Hunters and cheap Long Fangs. Heck you can pack around 30 missiles at 2000 points. That's kind of crazy but thats how it is. Blood Angels are also a top army and they have all the tools to beat SW. The two armies are very different so in my mind there is not much point in comparing them. Sure you can but at the end of the day it's not going to change anything.

 

0b :P

[Khavos]

While I won't quite agree with Quillen's tone, I tend to agree with the message being conveyed. Blood Angels, by and large, are an army that simply must move forward to win. BA wins within the 2" zone, where Wolves can win from the 24+" zone. While I won't go so far as to say that BA armies are easy to play (mostly because of the virtue of being incredibly hard to build a solid list from the dex), I will say that they're fairly predictable. BA armies consist of exactly one trick: Move forward.

 

Since Wolves have the versatility mentioned prior, we have every ability to counter the average BA list. A block of Wolves with well-mixed weaponry and designated roles will systematically annihilate a BA list as it moves across the board, even taking into account those absurdly annoying (if ineffective) Baal Predators. The 24" range is our killzone, and in order for the Angels to have a chance to beat us, they -have- to go through that 24" range (unless they're deepstriking in, which is all the better for our rapidfire.) Finally, even once the BA have waded through our superior firepower, they have to contest with one of the 'ardest armies in the game in close combat. Assaulting Space Wolves? You -might- live. Being assaulted by them? Kiss your squad goodbye. Wolves (specifically Grey Hunters) are the best Troops choice in the game. We're as good on offense as on defense, and there's a good chance there's two squads of Hunters for every one of the BA Death-Squads. Solid tactical maneuvering on the part of the Wolves will result in a BA rout almost every game.

 

I will say that when it comes down to it, BA tend to be a one-trick pony, and that trick is Assault. If they can't win in that particular arena, there's a damned good chance that the BA won't win at all. It's very point-and-click, and as much as some folk would try to say that BA armies are tactical... they really aren't. There's only one way to solidly win with BA, and if you can shut them down in the Assault arena (with us Wolves being one of the better armies capable of doing so), the BA may as well pack it in and go home, because they have nothing left. In a way, I almost feel sorry for the BA just because of that.

 

The irony of this post is twofold: most BA tournament armies are shooty Razorspam rather than assault focused, and, secondly, the part in bold. It's pretty difficult to make the case for having to out-think your opponent when you're crowing about how fundamentally better your army list is. And I agree, Space Wolves have a much better codex than Blood Angels. Blood Angels have a lot of toys, but, again...I thoroughly recommend everyone who hasn't yet done so try to build a decent list with them. Especially a decent assault list. Better yet? Try and come up with a BA list that would beat your SW list without having to do anything but "point and click."

 

I dont think anyone can make a good case that Mephiston is any more broken than a Saga Lord on a Thunderwolf mount running with a squad of TWC.

 

Yeah...if I had to choose between fighting a list that included two Mephistons - and I'm aware it's illegal, yes - and one unit of the above, I'd choose the list with two Mephistons, as Mephiston actually has some, you know, weaknesses, unlike Thunderlord + TWC.

[Decoy]

The irony of this post is twofold: most BA tournament armies are shooty Razorspam rather than assault focused, and, secondly, the part in bold. It's pretty difficult to make the case for having to out-think your opponent when you're crowing about how fundamentally better your army list is. And I agree, Space Wolves have a much better codex than Blood Angels. Blood Angels have a lot of toys, but, again...I thoroughly recommend everyone who hasn't yet done so try to build a decent list with them. Especially a decent assault list. Better yet? Try and come up with a BA list that would beat your SW list without having to do anything but "point and click."

 

Granted, about tournament armies. I've not been on the tournie scene in a while, m'self, but from the casual gamers that I normally hang out with, the list includes very few shooty elements in that regard. Even the one razorspam list tends to get routinely smashed just from the amount of weaponry the average Wolf list brings to the table, without trying to be inherrently antitank. Razors aren't exactly hardy attack platforms.

 

In regards to the out-thinking bit... I don't recall saying much about out-thinking them. What applies to all assaulty armies applies to the BA as well, and one needs to change one's tactics very little to effectively deal with the BA. As you said, fundamentally, aye, the Wolves are better simply by virtue of strategic deployment of weaponry and placement. Wolves can stand stock-still and shoot with the same effectivity as charging headlong in, all without changing the core basics of the designed list. BA don't have that ability, from what I've seen. They tend to have to assault or remain a shooty force (Unless BA Vets can take lascannons with their jump packs? :P ) I will say we're in agreement about the BA list development, however. I don't envy the BA the added effort of making an effective list.

 

In regards to a list that would beat the SW list? That's just the thing. I really can't. Maybe it's that I'm too much a SW player, but I simply can't develop -any- BA list that would beat my Wolves without the point and click style. Largely, it would consist of Death Stars DSing in and taking a turn of massed firepower before finally meeting in a combined close combat. Fairly point and click. Maybe it's me, but the one (and only one) time that I've lost to BA was when it was a DS-heavy list. Everything else has been systematically dismantled and destroyed by Turn Two or Three (even Razorspam.) I think a large part of my inability to come up with such a list, however, is the drastically differing playstyles between Angels and Wolves. I, for instance, tend to run no tanks, heavy on CC and heavy on anti-tank firepower (Meltas, Las- and Plasma Cannons.)When it comes to a bog-down against BA, I just wait for them to assault, pop the Banner on the decoy squad, and hammer into them with CC-based countercharge Hunter squads, normally operating with a Lord or some other heavy-hitter.

 

Quasi-related, Khavos, can you perhaps PM me a few hints about building a solid BA list? A buddy of mine is struggling, and for the first time in a while, I can't really help him.

[Khavos]

Quasi-related, Khavos, can you perhaps PM me a few hints about building a solid BA list? A buddy of mine is struggling, and for the first time in a while, I can't really help him.

 

My only advice would be to Razorspam. Or, to do what I'm doing, which is giving up on making an effective assault list led by something tougher than a Librarian and switching over to a DIY using the SW codex.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Quasi-related, Khavos, can you perhaps PM me a few hints about building a solid BA list? A buddy of mine is struggling, and for the first time in a while, I can't really help him.

3++ is the new black

 

Enter in blood angels into the search bar :unsure:

[Khavos]

Quasi-related, Khavos, can you perhaps PM me a few hints about building a solid BA list? A buddy of mine is struggling, and for the first time in a while, I can't really help him.

3++ is the new black

 

Enter in blood angels into the search bar :unsure:

 

Yeah, Kirby's lists are pretty good for Blood Angels.

 

I've honestly never come across anything there, though, that a standard, boring ol' Space Wolf list would have serious issues with.

[Wysten]

But then the same could be said for Tau. They only have one real build, but they do, they do really well. In shooting they don't need melta guns, because if they are close enough to use them, it's last ditch or they are doing something wrong with their shooting/army.

 

I like space wolves more as a dex personally, though there are appeals to BA strats, including jetpacking nutters. XD

[Marshal Sibrand]

Just curious here, but who are you refering to when you mention a BA demon prince?

[Night Runner]

They are referring to Lord Mephiston, the so called doppleganger demon prince currently impersonating the real Mephiston who has been trapped on some demon word in the Eye of Terror.

[Marshal Sibrand]

Where is that in the fluff?

[bulley]

This is as a blood angels player thats played against space wolves a couple of times.

 

BA are by no means a hard army to put on the field and be relativily effective, though I see bad army choices all over the shop. But to say that SW's are a harder codex is a bit off the mark. It is widely considered that SW is either the strongest or 2nd strongest codex, and certainly the best marine codex, with BA's a little bit behind.

 

Even with BA's ability to get the FNP/FC going on, SW's often can counter quite quick with counter attack and their nice wolf guard beefing up a unit - and bare in mind that your not having FNP/FC across the army.

 

SW's are great, as are BA, I won't hear anything against either codex.

 

One thing that does have me envious is the Grey Hunters, soo cheap and massivily versatile.

 

That said, I am re-making my old SW army just to have as something to dust out.

[the jeske]

Similarly a 135 point Autocannon / Lascannon Predator vs a 140 point 6 man missile launcher Long Fangs pack, you get one less shot but your support is on a fast AV 13 tank as opposed to a very static infantry squad.

 

that does not get stuned , and can target two units per turn with a single unit. 2 LF units can and offten will go for 3 rhinos class targets per turn. no matter what and how a BA player tries and how effcient or cheap his options are , he is not going to be able to counter so many targets . not to mention stuff like being a lot better at countering MC or having an easier time to get cover etc.

Compare Razorback squads, 6 GH in a razorback is 125 points, 6 BA assault marines in a razorback is 136 points. The GH get counterattack, the BA get a fast transport and a Ld 9 / A 2 sergeant. Trying to argue that the GH squad is somehow ezmode and the BA squad requires skill is nonsensical.

am not getting this. yes it is easier to build a razor build with BAs , but how does that make SW not easy mode to play ? because they cant play gunline builds , well neither can may chaos [and we can run plasma/AC set ups if we realy hate skimers] . Check if the BA razor build works better then the a lot simular sm one . It does not work better .

Both armies have builds that are more complicated but your assertion that BAs have no easy builds is just plain nonsensical.

BAs do not have good easy to play builds , SW have good [as in stable , fool proof , easy to play etc] builds that can even win tournament on auto pilot [a lot like chaos but with more utility]. they dont have soft or hard counter while BAs have. razor builds have huge problems with IG and classic BA mecha suffers from lack of slots in rhinos for SP. They have good units [like mefiston] but those suffer either from the cost issue or are offten random . a RP or LF are always good , a RP even if he does not use a psyker power one time is still good because of chooser and/or staff.

 

 

And as I said above, Blood Angles are straight foward kids army. CHARGE!!!! and if tey get that charge they win.

but you do know that your right now compering tier 2 BA builds with normal SW lists and saying that SW are harder to play ? DoA and jump pack builds have huge flaws build in [true LoS , lack of LoS blocker and if they try to run 2xRAs mounter 2 ras jump they run out of points , because they actualy do cost more then SW or normal sm].

[Night Runner]

Where is that in the fluff?

Hi mate, it's not in the fluff, its just that I detest the way Mark Ward reworked him - fluff and profile wise. So I say that crap just to make the Mephiston pill easier to swallow! :lol:

[Skalver]

BAs do not have good easy to play builds , SW have good [as in stable , fool proof , easy to play etc] builds that can even win tournament on auto pilot [a lot like chaos but with more utility]. they dont have soft or hard counter while BAs have. razor builds have huge problems with IG and classic BA mecha suffers from lack of slots in rhinos for SP. They have good units [like mefiston] but those suffer either from the cost issue or are offten random . a RP or LF are always good , a RP even if he does not use a psyker power one time is still good because of chooser and/or staff.

 

If you want people to say Blood Angels are a hard army to play you are in the wrong forum. BAs are a very strong, very competitive army that is quite capable of going toe to toe with any other codex out there and emerging on top. In fact, if you go to the BA forum I expect you will hear the same thing, the Codex is very strong.

 

If you are trying to argue some nebulous point like saying it is harder to pick a good BA list than it is to pick a good SW list then I point you to google where plenty strong lists for every codex under the sun can be found in a few short minutes. The flexibility in the BA codex is a strength, not a weakness. That every slot includes several very good unit choices is a strength. Yes, that comes with the caveat that an army picked by throwning darts at the codex is less likely to have strong cohesion but to go from there to argue that it somehow takes a lot more skill to play Blood Angels is much too large a logical leap. That the codex can be used to choose weaker lists does not imply that the codex does not contain strong lists, nor does it imply that choosing a strong list is more difficult. A totally new BA player will probably pick a list with Terminators, Tactical Squads Assault Squads and a couple Baal predators. Compare to a new Space Wolf player who will pick a list with Wolf Guard terminators, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and a pack of Long Fangs. Neither of those armies is going to set the tournament scene buzzing but played against each other they will compete on quite equal ground.

 

When I see statements like "builds that can even win tournament on auto pilot" then I am more tempted to call the moderators to reply. You are obviously drifting way into trolling teritory when you make statements like that. When it is followed up by stating that Mephiston has cost issues I have to laugh. There are very very few equal priced units in the game that he can't chew through in a single turn, TWC, Land Raiders, you name it he mangles them. Watch those 9 S10 attacks chew through a 300 point squad of TWC like it was paper and come back with over costed ...

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

I wish SW could get FNP on almost every unit in the army.

[Max_Dammit]

I wish we could shoot lightning from our eyes and had all the stats to 10 and re-role everything, its a balance thing :lol:

[CainTheHunter]

I wish we could shoot lightning from our eyes and had all the stats to 10 and re-role everything, its a balance thing :lol:

 

 

The Codex could compensate this by not having an option to take plasmaguns for our Swiftclaws bikers and deathwind missiles on drop pods.

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

I wish we could shoot lightning from our eyes and had all the stats to 10 and re-role everything, its a balance thing :lol:

 

Mind you, a scouting fast tank with a tonne of flame templates would also go down a treat.

[Max_Dammit]

It would go down yeah, to massed longfang fire, I like my dex, lets see how we cope with DE, BA are in no way more or less powerful than we.

[DumbleDoo]

Its hard to argue that the wolves are not better than the angels. Having played both, I maintain that the wolves are much more points efficient force and therefore much more forgiving. The Angels require some pretty expensive single wound units to function in certain lists (e.g., Vanguard or Honor Guard) and they are nothing compared to TWC. A no-frills (grey hunters, long fangs and some rune priests) wolf army is a strong and efficient army that not many other codices can match. When you sprinkle in wonderful units like TWC, scouts, lone wolves and wolf lords, it is clear who has the superior book.

[Khavos]

When I see statements like "builds that can even win tournament on auto pilot" then I am more tempted to call the moderators to reply. You are obviously drifting way into trolling teritory when you make statements like that.

 

You're aware that's not by any means an uncommon opinion, right? I mean, sure, you could ask the Blood Angels if they feel they have a strong 'dex, and I have no doubt they'd say they do, but there'd also be no doubt which 'dex is currently the strongest out of the SM offerings, and competing for - if not outright winning - top spot overall.

 

It is a very, very easy book to play.

[Leonaides]

You know what - these threads are always preaching to the converted. I could say how I've yet to lose to a SW list since the new codex, and I've played a few varieties. But that is meaningless. As meaningless as netlists, 'my army is better because it does so and so' or saying 'this unit is point and win'. There isnt a single thing that you can do with a SW list taht I cant counter with a BA list, and there isnt a single thing in a BA list that you cant counter with something in the SW list. But there is luck. Then there is taking advantage of luck, setting yourself up to be in a position to maximise yours and minimise the downturns. then there is the relative ability of your opponent, how concentrated they are, and if they have noticed that slight angle where your lascannon can see the side of their tanks (or similar).

[Max_Dammit]

there was the same trash talk about the 3th ED wolf dex. remember that we have to do with it for the next 10 years :tu: