Do you use extra armor?

[minigun762]

ShinyRhino and I think alike.

- I always take EA on Dreadnoughts.

- I always take EA on LRs so they can still move and dump their payload out.

- I sometimes take EA on Vindicators.

- I take EA on nothing else.

 

My gut feeling is this is the best answer.

Of course for Chaos, you would replace the EA with Daemonic Possession on the Raiders and Vindicators and we're sure as hell not going to take our Dreadnoughts so that knocks out that idea.

[Brother_Dan'l]

I used to take it on almost everything. Now days it's just for Furioso Dreadnoughts or, rarely, for a Land Raider. The Dreadnought has to have it, since to stop moving is to be as good as dead. If I can't find any other way to spend the points, and I do mean any, I'll look at giving it to my Redeemer.

[Hellios]

Wow, I'm surprised to see so many in favor of extra armor. I NEVER take it... ever... on anything.

 

It might be worth it at 5 points, but even then I would only look for it when I had nothing else to spend points on, but as it is it is way overpriced. If I'm trying to waste points I would take hunter killer missiles and 5 points instead. The only place I can see it being very useful at all is on a land raider that absolutely has to get to the enemy deplyment zone on turn 2. However, there just isn't that much urgency to a tactical squad in a rhino, or a support dread. Too many points for not that much benefit... just not worth it to me.

 

-Myst

I think it depends on what you have in the transport... When I have my chief libby with his vets rocking out it is worth taking the risk that they will get an extra turn of movement rather than having to suffer one or two more turns of shooting. I grant it might not be worth it for a 5 man combat squad.

[norngahl]

I once used to take Extra Armor on Dreads and LR.

 

Nowadays I don´t use any Extra Armor. Heck I´m fielding Mech. If I got say 50 Points leftover and got everything I wanted to have in my list I´d rather start to add 5 missiles onto my razorbacks than buying 3 times extra armor. Come on, Extra Armor works 10% a time, often not even needed, and with a gunline I don´t want to move much anyway. I rather take 5 missiles to kill the enemy before he hurts me (the only case where Extra Armor works).

 

The only exception I can see are LRC. If they move forwards they have to drop some important cargo (hammernator+libby most of the time) so they need it. The only dread it is usefull for (Ironclad) already includes EA in it´s point costs. For normal dreads I wouldn´t take it, as their main should rather be long range support than CC.

 

Actually I´m talking about vanillas. With BA Furioso or Libby Dreads EA might be very useful.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Grenades only go to WS when the walker is immobolized, extra armour wont help in that situation.

 

As already said in the post above yours

 

Walkers are always struck on their WS value, though.

No. Grenades only hit walkers in close combat on a 6. Please see page 73 of the main rulebook.

 

As to page 73 of the rule book, walker & assault

 

Grenades & melta bombs can be used against a walker. A model will only mange to score a hit with a greandes against a walker on a roll of a 6. However if a walker is already stunned or immobile at the start of the assault phase, the attacker rolls to hit base on the normal comparsion of WS.

 

This is the third paragraph (sp?).

 

So it dose help a lot, would rather not have that melta bomb blow up my dreadnought when I can help it.

 

IP

[Xeonic]

With my Ultramarines I don't use extra armor. I would use it on Vindis, or in a 6 dread list on every dread, or on a land raider, but it's not worth it to me on anything else, and since I don't actively use any of the above on a regular basis, I say no to extra armor as a general rule. My reasoning being that all of the above benefit greatly from remaining mobile at all times. Predators, rhinos, razors don't really need it because they either don't need to stay mobile or don't cost enough points to benefit greatly from it. In the case of rhinos you can add fragility to the list of downsides, they don't have the AV to really take advantage of it.

If I were running chaos Vindis(at one time I planned a linebreaker formation of chaos vindis, never got around to building them) or 'raiders I'd rather use possession.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

For Templars, it is cheap.

The army is also a rush list in many cases. I think a mêlée army needs it more than a shooty one does.

 

Rhinos, Dreads and Vindis always get it.

 

Rhinos to get your boys into the action. Dreads so they can move + run/assault ~ nothing like being out of TLoS or in mêlée to avoid getting shot to tomorrow. Vindis because they attract attention and as they must trundle around to be able to fire, being able to hoon 12" makes the best of a bad situation.

 

Preds and Razors get it too, as I usually make a point of it ~ being cheap and all.

 

Being able to move gets you:

into cover or out of sight

out of assault range or MELTA range

makes you harder to hit if the assault does get to you

allows you to make something out of nothing.

 

+++

 

It might not be worth it for 5th ed. Dexes, but sometimes moving 12" is worth more than a Marine, if you want to contest or get into RF/assault range.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Rhinos are good. They provide cheap mobility and survivability. They're also the reason that Tactical Squads in Codex: Space Marines are the best unit in the game at holding midfield. For a fairly low price, you get a multi-melta pillbox that creates a rather sizeable "DON'T DRIVE HERE" bubble. Neither Space Wolves nor Blood Angels do this as well as Codex: Space Marines.

 

Crusaders can do it the same ;)

 

We can do it with a 5 man squad too. MM, special weapon. Ta-dah! ;)

 

Depending on your foe, RF bolters and combat tactics is better and other times bp+cs and preferred enemy is better B)

 

+++

 

Fangs and Devs are not as good at it because the rhino only has two fire points and they are not scoring. The MM bunker makes the most of a bad choice [Tacticals] whilst Devs and Fangs will contribute more with a swag of MLs [unless you are paying UM price. D'oh!]

[Hellios]

Fangs and Devs are not as good at it because the rhino only has two fire points and they are not scoring. The MM bunker makes the most of a bad choice [Tacticals] whilst Devs and Fangs will contribute more with a swag of MLs [unless you are paying UM price. D'oh!]

 

Oh I certainly wouldn't use long fangs like that.. but I would prefer two multi-meltas over a single one if that was what I was using one for... personally I'm happy for someone to park in the middle of the table... I'll get into combat with them faster.

[River Black]

I take it on all of my rhinos in my sisters list. Thats because its only 5 points and sisters rely more on advancing as a whole than Space Marines. If im playing BA or Codex marines I only take it on Dreads. I would take it on a landraider but I dont use them so I dont worry about it.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Fangs and Devs are not as good at it because the rhino only has two fire points and they are not scoring. The MM bunker makes the most of a bad choice [Tacticals] whilst Devs and Fangs will contribute more with a swag of MLs [unless you are paying UM price. D'oh!]

 

Oh I certainly wouldn't use long fangs like that.. but I would prefer two multi-meltas over a single one if that was what I was using one for... personally I'm happy for someone to park in the middle of the table... I'll get into combat with them faster.

 

Who are you playing as?

 

A Tac squad with MM and special weapon are not to be sniffed at, be they Sals [for extra bite] or Ultras [for the teflon move]. You have to get them out of the Rhino, and then get around the Rhino.

 

I'd be happy with you driving your Raider into my MELTA range :)

 

You only need one Tac squad outback [for that objective] so you might as well use the other one to take the midfield.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't think you can really compare the decision to take Extra Armor in old codices to Extra Armor from newer ones; the fact that GW tripled the point cost of Extra Armor does make for a major game-changer, after all.

[BearersOfSalvation]

When extra armor costs almost half as much as the rhino and protects against just one single damage result, it's wasted points as far as I'm concerned. I use it on land raiders, but putting it on every vehicle gets brutally expensive for little real benefit. In a typical list for me I'd need 6-8 non-land raider pieces of heavy armor to cover my rhino-chassis vehicles, so that would be 90-120 points for the extra armor. That's enough to add a librarian, add a drednought, add a tank, turn a 5-man sqaud into a 10-man with plasma gun and lascannon, add close to 2 tornadoes, and other things I'd much rather do.

 

At 5 points a pop like in the old lists, I'd take it on everything, that's probably why they bumped the cost so much.

[DAwarrior43]

I find it a little too expensive for my taste, it just doesn't seem worth it in my mech lists, I should probably consider it on my rifleman, but 15 pts is very difficult to come by in my lists, especially when I would rather use it on a power weapon or getting me close to a powerfist. But I do see the merits that people are bringing forward.

[Grey Mage]

Unless Im heavily campaigning against Tau, and truely feel the need to take rhinos, I only take Extra Armor on a Dreadnaught- 15pts to increase their effectiveness by 75% is good.

 

Occasionally Ill toss it down on a Landraider, just in case.

[DarkGuard]

I hardly ever use extra armour on my tanks. It doesn't even touch my Rhinos or my Razorbacks unless I have absolutely nothing else to do with the points. IMO, it is not worth paying out nearly a half of their original cost to ignore 1/6th of the vehicle damage table. If you upgrade two Rhinos with extra armour you're very close to buying a third, which will be better as you can transport more troops, and flood your opponent's target priorities.

 

I may put it on Dreads or Land Raiders though, but only if I expect them to operating forwards of the main force, so rifleman Dreads and normal LRs will probably be deprived of EA. And having used Vindicators extensively for over a half a year now (feels like longer!) I have recorded little benefit in giving them EA, although I'd sooner upgrade them with it than my Rhinos.

 

Simply put, in my experience so far stunning is unlikely regularly enough to justify the cost in all but the biggest vehicles that you want to keep moving (Dreads, Land Raiders).

[breng77]

One way to look at it is that a Space marine Missile launcher shooting at a Rhino has a 7.4% chance of Stunning that Rhino. So a Long fang squad with 5 ML has a 37% chance of stunning that rhino. The squad also has a 55% chance of Destroying that Rhino. So paying that 15 points (in New Codices) is 18% more likely to go wasted than to be useful. What it comes down to is that most people remember the times that EA has been useful and not the number of times it has gone wasted.

[Sir Blayse]

I haven't used extra armor yet, not normally enough points to swing for it. But with a new list running 4 or five dreads I will probably put it on the three close combat ones. Worst case that should help them get into assault with targets they have dropped in on. A tac squad will drop in with MotF, so he can fix other issues like weapon destroyed or immobile.

 

So far we have been running mini-games with 3 player free-for-alls. Since one player only has 1000 points of guard, we are handicapped at that limit. Once he builds it up some more I will be increasing the number of dreads and tacs. I thinks spending 45 points would not be a big stretch to help stay in the fight.

[minigun762]

What it comes down to is that most people remember the times that EA has been useful and not the number of times it has gone wasted.

 

What is the term for that?

 

I know its something specific...

[breng77]

Well its selective memory, but I'm sure that is not the term you are looking more. In addition people also remember the times that on turn 5 they really wished they had EA. People don't really account for the number of times they payed 50 points for and EA rhino and gotten it blown up on turn 1.

[Grey Mage]

What it comes down to is that most people remember the times that EA has been useful and not the number of times it has gone wasted.

 

What is the term for that?

 

I know its something specific...

Experience Bias. You remember those things that have more impact, good or ill.

[templargdt]

I'll take EA on dreadnoughts and that's it.

[Rider-75]

i have to say that if our rhinos had to pay 15 points for EA it would most likely go bye-bye.

 

as it is codex marines get 35 point rhinos and 15 point EA. making their rhinos the same price as our EA'd ones.

 

with the drop in rhino points, it's effectively another body on the table or extra wargear somewhere - at that point it becomes a choice between the effectiveness of an EA'd rhino or the use of the points elsewhere.

 

i've started toying with lists for my T/S Ultramarines and this is making for some challenging thoughts to list design compared to my familar BTs.