Starting a DIY Chapter

[Ecritter]

As a veteran myself I have to say that would never work in a real combat situation.

 

"No, I don't think we should drive forward into that overwhelming fire. We might die!"

 

"Oh, okay ... I guess we'll just sit here and have tea then."

[19jw89]

That's fine and dandy, except it doesn't work.

Really.

Democracy is organized chaos.

 

Agreed. In a military context you are asking for failure.

 

So brother A can disagree with force commander B, even though commander B has had a thousand years experience in warfare, (successful obviously given his rank) and has created the plan through knowledge of his enemy only to have the inexperienced but opinionated brother A disagree just because he doesn't 'get it'? This sounds horrific.

 

As a veteran myself I have to say that would never work in a real combat situation.

 

"No, I don't think we should drive forward into that overwhelming fire. We might die!"

 

"Oh, okay ... I guess we'll just sit here and have tea then."

 

 

I can see that my explanation and methodology have not gone down particularly well. In particular, I'm going to address the second and third quotes.

 

I think there is a broad misunderstanding here - I'm not saying that in the middle of a firefight, Marines are going to deny the orders of their superiors, be it their Sergeant, Force Commander and so on. They are trained to the point that it's instinctive to act as they are told, and I'm not trying to detract from that. It's meant to be exercised during the planning stages of an operation. The best way to explain it might be this:

 

Scout Squad A are extracted from the field, having spent time gathering information and establishing ground truth for the later assualt. The brothers of that squad may have reccomendations that they feel the Force Commander could benefit from - one can never have enough information when planning an operation. Hence, they would submit their suggestions (if they have any) to the Sgt., who would pick and choose what is actually useful and also what is pointless. He submits this information to the Force Commander, who in turn would pick and choose the ideas that he deems worthy and useful, taking into account his own extensive experience on the field of battle. It's not a round table fracas, with everyone shouting and screaming. It, to my mind, encourages individual marines to think beyond their own role somewhat, and in doing so grant a greater understanding of his role. To continue the previous example, a Neophyte might notice an area of high ground that would serve as a good location for a fire support base (e.g Devastator Marines) - the Force Commander would most likely have noticed this regardless, but it reinforces his ideas and serves to give 'ground truth'.

 

As a sort of final point, I did point out in quite an explicit manner that was only to be used during the planning stages, never on the ground itself (barring lone Scout units operating behind the lines, where it is down to the discretion of the Sgt.), as this quote shows:

 

Once again, it is here that the emphasis on individual thinking is brought to the fore – all brethren involved in the operation are consulted, all opinions heard; if a Marine has an issue or suggestion, he must bring it forward or hold his peace and thus forfeit the right to question later decisions based on that issue.

 

I do recognise that my writing style, as of yet, hasn't made this point clear. But, and I will repeat this until I'm blue in the face, I'm open to suggestions as to how it may be improved upon, either for the sake of clarity or because what I have described is so anti-thetical to the doctrines of the Astartes.

[Ecritter]

Individual Marines being involved in the planning stages is done today, and I'd say should be done in 40k. I just wouldn't spend that much time on the subject, else you're gonna have to put in several paragraphs to fully explain it.

[19jw89]

Individual Marines being involved in the planning stages is done today, and I'd say should be done in 40k. I just wouldn't spend that much time on the subject, else you're gonna have to put in several paragraphs to fully explain it.

 

For the sake of clarity though, would it not be fair to say it needs some editing? Otherwise, I could end up having the same argument over and over again, in particular with civvies without a working knowledge of how a modern-day military works? I have to admit to using British Army experience in this matter.

[Ecritter]

Individual Marines being involved in the planning stages is done today, and I'd say should be done in 40k. I just wouldn't spend that much time on the subject, else you're gonna have to put in several paragraphs to fully explain it.

 

For the sake of clarity though, would it not be fair to say it needs some editing? Otherwise, I could end up having the same argument over and over again, in particular with civvies without a working knowledge of how a modern-day military works? I have to admit to using British Army experience in this matter.

 

Yeah it needs some editing, perhaps even simplifying.

 

"Suggestions from even the most junior marines are given serious consideration while planning combat operations."

[Octavulg]

Since no one has, to my knowledge, suggested these to you, I would recommend that you peruse the Liber's DIY Guide (stickied at the top of the forum) and my own Octaguide (linked in my sig).

 

I would like to say three things - firstly, building a Chapter around a combat doctrine is not necessarily interesting. Look at the Ultramarines if you don't believe me.

 

Second, the Raven Guard geneseed is riotously unstable, and it thus seems odd that they would have been selected as a source for new Chapters.

 

Finally, being a superhuman will let you get away with all sorts of inefficiencies on the battlefield. However, you should have a good, logical reason why the Space Marines do it and consider it worth the trouble.

[The Normish]

Since no one has, to my knowledge, suggested these to you, I would recommend that you peruse the Liber's DIY Guide (stickied at the top of the forum) and my own Octaguide (linked in my sig).

 

I would like to say three things - firstly, building a Chapter around a combat doctrine is not necessarily interesting. Look at the Ultramarines if you don't believe me.

 

Second, the Raven Guard geneseed is riotously unstable, and it thus seems odd that they would have been selected as a source for new Chapters.

 

Finally, being a superhuman will let you get away with all sorts of inefficiencies on the battlefield. However, you should have a good, logical reason why the Space Marines do it and consider it worth the trouble.

Actually, Octavulg, you'll find that I did, in my first post.

I'm curious as to what previous rationales have been for establishing Raven Guard successors? Perhaps you could point to some IAs you're familiar with.

[Octavulg]

There haven't really been any, to my recollection. Most people seem to be unaware of the issue. Hell, I only remembered when I reread the RG IA the other day.

[Codex Grey]

Maybe the same as with Blood Angels, who have a few early founding successors, but as millennia pass, the genetic flaws of their gene-line becomes apparent so their gene-seed is no longer used.

So the Raven Guard, like all the Loyal Legions, provide gene-seed for the creation of successor Chapters. A few are created to honor their loyalty during the earlier foundings, but after a while the instability of the gene-seed manifests itself in every single successor, so the High Lords decide not to risk it anymore and stick with the purer UM, IF, etc.

Maybe?

[GooseDaMoose]

Sorry, I would just like to say that on the subject of that kind of organizing "not working" in a real military I can name a couple of examples in modern history alone where they have worked with amazing efficiency.

 

For example the anarchist militias during the Spanish Civil War and the "Black Army" Makhnovichina (sp.?) during the Russian Civil War and it would work even better with Space Marines because of their training and self-discipline.

 

Just wanted to say that.. <_<

[Brother Argent]

I agree that it would work, to a degree and, as I said, as a fire fighter that is a system we use. Of course there still is a chain of command and you still have to respect that chain of command. To do otherwise ends up with even more lives at risk.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I actually like this as is.

 

A minor note - most chapters don't have multiple dreadnoughts or Land Raiders. You hear a lot about the Second Founding chapters having many, but that's because they are old and well respected, and generally are first in line when it comes to getting replacements to those things.

 

The paragrpah explaining what you meant about the advice of individuals being held as equals? I reccomend rewriting it and putting it in the IA.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Actually, I'd say that most chapters will have at least three LR's and maybe around 10 or so dreads(maybe fewer). Note that this has very little fluff foundation and is done mainly from logical reasoning and a bit of intelligent thought.

[Brother Argent]

Quoting from my codex here the Ultramarines have 22 Landraiders and 26 Dreadnoughts. This figure is basically Codex Adherent so I would personally say that an average Chapter would have between 15-20 Landraiders of various marks and around 20 Dreadnoughts. Of course younder Chaoter would have far less, along with things like Terminator Armour, to the point where 26th Founding Chapters would probably have only a few of each.