The Smiling Bandit Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 I've been doing Mathhammer using Heresy Online's combat calculator, and unless I'm missing something, TWC are a far better CC choice than anything available to Blood Angels that isn't an SC. Even TH/SS Terminators with FNP and FC will have a tough time dealing with even three TWC, assuming they're all running with Storm Shields as well, which most of the ones around here do. And, just out of curiosity, I decided to look at a few other match-ups. FC/FNP Assault Marines will beat Grey Hunters, but only by about 1.5 kills in the first round of combat assuming they get the charge. After that, it becomes much closer - and arguably almost even with the fact that the Grey Hunters can take an extra special CC weapon. So, in general, how does the premier SM assault army deal with the premier SM assault unit? Shoot it? And does BA's assault edge really add up to all that much, in the scheme of things? BA's seem only slightly better than Space Wolves - though obviously far better than vanilla SM - at assault, and the more I look at it the more it seems like it doesn't justify the hit to flexibility that we take to get it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Vindicators. At least 2 of them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2555066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 There's plenty of threads on that. Use the search function. Here's one to get you started Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2555085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br0ther Rafen Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Mephiston would work a charm against them. Failing that, said Vindies would also work well. :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2555836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 What hit to flexibility? There isnt one, apart form the walls in your own mind... Why oh why or why do people seem to want to pidgeonhole BA as 'the assaulty army' when they are just as flexible as any other marine army... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2555844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 What hit to flexibility? There isnt one, apart form the walls in your own mind... Why oh why or why do people seem to want to pidgeonhole BA as 'the assaulty army' when they are just as flexible as any other marine army... 1] Because charging is obvious. So it gets done, over and over again. 2] If I am not using only the stuff that is unique to my Chapter, then I am not playing my Chapter, even if it means leaving good - but 'common' - units behind. I long for BA players to use them like a mobile shooting army, a lá Mongol horse archers, and then assaulting T5-6. Perhaps something akin to MechDar. +++ Smiling bandit, I'd love to see your mathhammer and the units you are using :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2555852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 The Librarian with Sanguine Sword works well as the S10 that gets past the stormshields will insta-gib them. Same thing with Vindis but there are those bad scatters. The Furioso with Blood Talons I have found does well. The Sanguinor is good at getting rid of those troublesome saga lords too. 0b :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2555996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulley Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Yet to face TWC in my local meta - of the 3 space wolves players I know off the top of my head - non actually have TWC. My logic is to try and steer clear, I am guessing they will be thrown down the middle of the table at me. I'll either try and pump them with fire power or just ignore them until I have to deal with them. Maybe if I am running my x5 assault term squad w/ priest and libby will I have a pop at them, being deployed out of the land raider should see me get the charge that will be important, and try and soften them up with the assault cannon/bolters from the raider as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 You cannot steer clear of TWC. they have a charge range of 18" and will get through cover to get at you too. If it is the unit with a Wolf Lord and a 'bodyguard' of Fenrisian wolves as ablative wounds, then you need to thin their numbers down with mundane weapons, then drop Vindicator Shells on their heads afterwards so those Instant Death wounds are going on the TWC. I would also recommend feeding them a unit then counter-charging with a Death Company Dreadnought with Talons. Strikes at I5 and S7 with re-rolls to wound and the additional bonus attacks. You should kill them off that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soups Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 I long for BA players to use them like a mobile shooting army, a lá Mongol horse archers, and then assaulting T5-6. Perhaps something akin to MechDar. It all depends on the meta. When the new codex came out, I had just as much dakka as an IG army (well, maybe not literally). People get wise, and with people fielding 12-18 strength 8+ metla lance everywhere, I had to replace my shooty for bodies. Some metas may differ, but most of the larger play groups feel the need to netlist to win against 20+ player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N1N Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 How do you deal with TWC... easy. You use a 100point Libby with "fear" and run them off the table. I did that a few times mow and every time the opponents 700+ point deathstar just turn and hightail it out of there (or was that tail between the legs? ;) ). Anyway, I've faced them a few times, and while libby is great at chasing them off if they fail their leadership, they are still tough, and you would alwais rather have the charge on them. you don't need to kill all of them, just get a low cost tarpit unit into them, and then focus on the rest of their army. close to half the points usually go into that TWC squad, in the hope that it will eat through a unit every turn. If you can stop that, then have the upper hand in that game... just don't go and loose it by making some silly tactical mstakes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 That's not very reliable when they have a Ld10 Lord in there Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 That's not very reliable when they have a Ld10 Lord in there Probably a Wolf Tail Talisman on the Lord and a good chance of a Rune Priest within range to even nullify the power outright. Sama, it is actually an 18"-24" charge range with the TWC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Exactly! I use Fear on Long Fangs. Much better! Really in most of those tournament build Space Wolf lists you need to get rid of the Long Fangs and the TWC first, then you can double up on the Grey Hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulley Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 You cannot steer clear of TWC. they have a charge range of 18" and will get through cover to get at you too. If it is the unit with a Wolf Lord and a 'bodyguard' of Fenrisian wolves as ablative wounds, then you need to thin their numbers down with mundane weapons, then drop Vindicator Shells on their heads afterwards so those Instant Death wounds are going on the TWC. I would also recommend feeding them a unit then counter-charging with a Death Company Dreadnought with Talons. Strikes at I5 and S7 with re-rolls to wound and the additional bonus attacks. You should kill them off that way. Your right, forgot about their rediculous movement Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/214597-dealing-with-twc/#findComment-2556879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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