Night Lords with blood angels codex

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

The time has come for a new army. My buddies are getting uppity at me for running a 'leafblower' guard army (around here, any guard army where no one walks is called leafblower) which grinds my gears.

 

That being said, I want to try something different. I've never done an army exactly as it appears in the fluff, and I set about doing my research to see what would appeal to me and I came up thus:

 

Black Dragons using Space Wolves Rules (marines on Carnosaurs, anyone? MoW on cursed founding guys? Cursed Knights as lone wolves?)

Night Lords as Blood Angels (Sanguinor/Mephiston as daemon prince? Precision landing terror tactics? Terminators that advance relentlessly spreading terror and carnage wherever they go?)

 

After much deliberation, I chose to use Night Lords with the BA codex.

 

Here is what I have:

 

Daemon Prince: Sanguinor or Mephiston

Terminators: chaos terminators with chaos knights arms holding gigantic bifurcated blades and chaos shields

Raptors: troop assault squads

Vanguard: Sanguinary guard heavily recarved with Terrax pattern wrist mounted bolters

Furioso dreadnought: blood claws perfect for night lords dread

Sanguinary Priests: Justifiers, veterans of the legion who witnessed the Primarch's betrayal firsthand

 

C&C welcome!

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I considered doing similar before I guilted myself out of the idea, but I do think the BA Codex is the closest approximation to the Night Lords as has been produced since 5th Ed came out.

[Legatus]

After much deliberation, I chose to use Night Lords with the BA codex.

 

Here is what I have:

Chaos Space Marines actually have their own Codex book. It may have been released late 4th Edition, but it is still applicable in 5th Edition as well. With that Codex you get actual Daemon Princes, Chaos Marines, Raptors (which Night Lords don't actually have as Troops), Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc. so there is no need to approximate some loyalists rules to play Night Lords.

[Quixus]

I like the Night Lords too and at first glance RAS as troops seem to be very fitting, but then Dark Bjoern's signature reminded me of some fluff about the VIII legion. I think it is said by Konrad Curze either in Lord of the Night or Soul Hunter:

"Surprise is an insubstantial blade, a sword worthless in war.

It breaks when troops rally. It snaps when commanders hold the line.

But fear never fades.

Fear is a blade that sharpens with use.

So let the enemy know we come. Let their fears defeat them as everything falls dark.

At the world´s sun set.....

As the city is wreathed in its final night.....

Let ten thousand howls promise ten thousand claws.

The Night Lords are coming.

And no soul that stands against us shall see another dawn!"

 

Rapid Assault and Jump Packs may be a tool for the Night Lords but it is not their strategy, that is debilitating the enemy by fear.

I think you should decide whether you want to build a Jump Pack Army that looks/is scary (BA) or if you really want to for a Terror Army that has some jump packs.

 

Unless you are very attached to your army being aligned with chaos, which isn't that true about the Night Lords anyway, you may want to look into creating a BA successor that likes terror tactics with a colour scheme similar to the VIII legion. It could even be a renegade chapter, there are those that seceded/are hunted by the imperium and still have not bent their knee to chaos (for now): Relictors, Legion of the Damned, to some extent Soul Drinkers etc. IIRC the Fleshtearers are eyed suspiciously by the Inquisition for their cannibalistic tendencies. Another BA successor could also have a beef with some Imperial organization, due to similar events as with the VIII Legion.

 

If you want to stay true to the Sons of the Night Haunter, start with Codex: CSM and hope for better representation in the new edition.

[the jeske]

ok not to be cynical , but how do you the terror aspect better or different then the same army build with the BA dex ?

[Legatus]

How do you use Chaos Space Marine units, actual "Raptors", captured furies, Chaos sorcerers, Chaos dreadnoughts, archaic Chaos weapons and chaos units like Possessed, Obliterators or allied cult units with the Codex Blood Angels?

[Gree]

How do you use Chaos Space Marine units, actual "Raptors", captured furies, Chaos sorcerers, Chaos dreadnoughts, archaic Chaos weapons and chaos units like Possessed, Obliterators or allied cult units with the Codex Blood Angels?

 

First of all I would like to say that I greatly prefer to use the Chaos dex myself for my Night Lords. But after some deliberation I can see where people are coming from with the Blood Angel's dex.

 

This thread on Warseer explains why people use Blood Angels Codex for Night Lords beyond having Jump Pack warriors as troops.

 

Long story short, some people don't want Possessed, cult units or Obliterators for their Night Lords and would prefer things like sane Dreadnoughts or loyalist gear for them.

 

But personally I'm one of those guys who prefer to use the Chaos Codex for my Night Lords and personally I think it's fluffier.

[Quixus]

ok not to be cynical , but how do you the terror aspect better or different then the same army build with the BA dex ?

It is not easier or better to do it with Codex:CSM. Actually it is quite hard for either Codex. AFAIK C:CSM has no fear inducing units and C:BA has only one. I just wanted to point out that Jump Infantry is not necessary to build a fluffy Night Lords army and that if you do not use one codex for an army that has its own codex you will get less flak from the internet community and possibly your local gaming group.

 

It's just a question what drew the OP to the Night Lords. If it was the (seemingly) High amount of Jump Packs and the paint job, I'd go for a BA successor, possibly a renegade.

 

If it was the fluff of the VIII Legion, I'd go with Codex CSM and real Night Lords.

 

But they are your little plastic men do with them what you want, as long as it is more or less WYSIWYG, as a courtesy to your opponents.

[Brother Ambroz]

First of all I would like to say that I greatly prefer to use the Chaos dex myself for my Night Lords. But after some deliberation I can see where people are coming from with the Blood Angel's dex.

 

This thread on Warseer explains why people use Blood Angels Codex for Night Lords beyond having Jump Pack warriors as troops.

 

Long story short, some people don't want Possessed, cult units or Obliterators for their Night Lords and would prefer things like sane Dreadnoughts or loyalist gear for them.

 

But personally I'm one of those guys who prefer to use the Chaos Codex for my Night Lords and personally I think it's fluffier.

 

I don't use possessed, cult units or oblits for my NL but I also still prefer our CSM dex. Even if it is bad I can't bring myself to use a loyalist dex for CSM even if it means winning just barely.

[Legatus]

after some deliberation I can see where people are coming from with the Blood Angel's dex.

Oh, I can see why someone might want to use a different Codex. I just don't think it is justified.

 

 

This thread on Warseer explains why people use Blood Angels Codex for Night Lords beyond having Jump Pack warriors as troops.

And none of the reasons other than "they have terror psychic powers" has any validity. Everything else is something people would like for their army, but is something Night Lords never had before or are not even said to have in the background.

 

Jump pack Troops? Night Lords never had that. Chapter Serfs? What? Drop Pods, well I guess they had been mentioned in the background, but no GW Codex Chaos force ever had them, and the other Chaos forces don't have them now, so what special claims do Night Lords have for them? Sane Dreadnoughts? Because the 100 year old Dreadnought in Soul Hunter was not crazy? How about the Dreadnougts from the 10,000 year old Night Lords warbands? Extra "Blood Angels skills", like being fearless and furious charge. Not the first thing I think of when thinking "Night Lords".

 

I can see why any of those options (jump pack Troops, Scouts, Drop Pods, sane Dreadnoughts, fearless and furious charge) would be interresting for a Chaos player to use. But the Night Lords (or other Chaos forces) cannot really claim any of those things. The Night Lords are a Chaos Space Marine force, divided into Chaos warbands. They use more Raptors than other warbands, but they are rare none the less. They do not use Scouts or "serfs" in battle (not that I would have heard about it anyways), Chaos Marines have never really had rules for Drop Pods outside of Forge World, their Dreadnoughts are generally assumed to be crazy, the young 100 year old Dreadnought in "Soul Hunter" aside, and Chaos Marines are described as selfish and more conscious about their own survival than loyalists, which is why they get neither ATSKNF nor are they usually fearless.

[Brother Nihm]

You forget one thing, variety.

Not only does C:CSM have many units that are outright junk - particularly compared to how they SHOULD be in the fluff, it also has many choices which are un-fluffy for Night Lords.

 

Many units taken from C:BA can be rationalized through count-as, and often come closer to the actual representation in the fluff than units taken from C:CSM does. Granted, Landspeeders and post-heresy tech will be met with blank stares by many but then again, given recent BL publications there is even precedent for Chaos warbands to be using post-heresy tech so if you got rough skin and an active imagination, almost anything will fly.

 

Another thing,

We used to have the ability to differentiate between "our Legion" of choice, and that of other CSM/Legionnaires, now everyone is a bog standard CSM, with the option to take a shiny stick that somehow magically lose it's effect when the bearer dies. ;)

Because of this I see the attraction of C:BA as it offers more variety. It lets you personalize your Night Lords and opens up for more variety.

 

I used the BA PDF 'dex for my Raptor Cult and it was only met with praise. Sure many things can be used from C:CSM with count-as, but it doesn't change the fact that they may feel un-fluffy or are pure junk (e.g. Spawn).

 

So - to the OP,

If you really want a fluffy army, you must first decide what the fluff is to you and what your list will be.

Choice vs. restrictions vs. your own perception of the fluff. Then decide on a 'dex.

Quite the conundrum and is often the cause for threads like this turning into debates.

 

However it is your army, do with it as you will, but be creative. :)

[Legatus]

Because of this I see the attraction of C:BA as it offers more variety. It lets you personalize your Night Lords and opens up for more variety.

What kind of variety does the Codex Blood Angels offer? Scouts? Five differents types of jump pack unit? Scouting assault cannon Predators? Independent Characters that grant 'Feel no Pain' and 'Furious Charge' to nearby "Night Lord" units? Assault Terminators with stormshields? Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons for Marine units? Attack Bikes and Land Speeders? Razorbacks? LR Crusaders and LR Redeemers? Because if you remove all of those units you end up with a much more limited selection than the Codex Chaos Space Marines would provide. Essentially you just moved Raptors to Troops instead of it being a Fast Attack choice (like it has allways been), and you get five different types of Raptors.

 

Instead of Chaos Terminators you would use loyalist Terminators with stormbolters and loyalist heavy weapons, and no combi-weapons or power weapons or lightning claws.

 

Instead of Chaos Marine Troop units you would use Tactical Squads or jump pack-less Assault Marines, having to chose between a boltgun or two ccws for the sake of ATSKNF.

 

Instead of Chaos Havocs you would get Devastators. Cheaper heavy weapons instead of the special weapon option.

 

You would trade one "Chaos" unit for one similar (but different) Blood Angels unit. You only really would get additional things to play with if you started using the Blood Angels or loyalist specific choices.

[Gree]

I can see why any of those options (jump pack Troops, Scouts, Drop Pods, sane Dreadnoughts, fearless and furious charge) would be interresting for a Chaos player to use. But the Night Lords (or other Chaos forces) cannot really claim any of those things. The Night Lords are a Chaos Space Marine force, divided into Chaos warbands. They use more Raptors than other warbands, but they are rare none the less. They do not use Scouts or "serfs" in battle (not that I would have heard about it anyways), Chaos Marines have never really had rules for Drop Pods outside of Forge World, their Dreadnoughts are generally assumed to be crazy, the young 100 year old Dreadnought in "Soul Hunter" aside, and Chaos Marines are described as selfish and more conscious about their own survival than loyalists, which is why they get neither ATSKNF nor are they usually fearless.

 

I think it depends more on the warband people play. My guys are not 10,000 years old nor are they much of Chaos worshippers. My warband would have sane Dreadnoughts and certainly make use of drop pods in the fluff. Fluffwise I'm working in a short story with a Claw equipped with scout armor for infiltration options.

[Dan The Deamon]

I will pipe in on the variety comment. Regularly while i'm building models i think to myself, Man i'd love a raptor champion with a lightning claw and a combi-melta. not only in game terms would it satisfy what my army is missing, but it would be kick ass to model.

 

I flip through the Raptor entry. Disappointment mars my face.

 

I flip through the newer PA dexes, possibilities open, motivation strikes, masochistic tendencies vanish...

 

To be entirely honest if Games Workshop halted the printing of C:CSM and disallowed it's use during games the only really thing i would be upset about were my lack of autocannon havocs. Everything else? Trust me I would take the news rather well.

[the jeske]

Jump pack Troops? Night Lords never had that.

wait wait wait. Didnt NL have like a grand company so x X chapter size unit of jump pack only dudes. or do we mean the 3.5 dex . because in the 3.5 dex they had more FA and scoring worked in a different way[bikes and raptors just did] . So at least for me the 3.5 dex they had troops as bikes or jump troops.

 

They use more Raptors than other warbands, but they are rare none the less.

in the old dex they told us that NL had a lot and that they had a full grand company of those guys . In the new dex nowhere does it say that NL have few raptor cults [because it would mean other legions have non]

[Legatus]

wait wait wait. Didnt NL have like a grand company so x X chapter size unit of jump pack only dudes.

Neither in any of their rules nor in the present day of M41, where Raptors are not really members of any of the big Legions but a cult on their own.

 

 

or do we mean the 3.5 dex . because in the 3.5 dex they had more FA and scoring worked in a different way[bikes and raptors just did] . So at least for me the 3.5 dex they had troops as bikes or jump troops.

For me you still had to take a few mandatory Chaos Space Marine squads in the 3.5 Codex. Night Lords were not "all Raptors". They had more Raptors than other Legions had (who were all limited to 0-1 unit of Raptors, other than Night Lords). That Raptors used to be able to claim mission objectives and now aren't (much like 70% of the other units in the Codex Chaos Space Marines or every other Codex) is a different matter.

 

 

in the old dex they told us that NL had a lot and that they had a full grand company of those guys

I am not sure the old Codex said that. At least not on the Night Lords page or the Raptors entry. It might have been a Black Library novel you were thinking about. Either way, the "full grand company" would have been 10.000 years ago. This is how the 3.5 Codex describes Raptors (p. 32):

 

"At the time of the Horus Heresy, the Adeptus Astartes made very limited use of jump packs. Those that escaped to the Eye of Terror with theirs were a rare breed who, after millennia sweeping and soaring in the burning skies of Daemon Worlds, became a faction that cut across the boundaries of the Traitor Legions, unified by the thrill of the hunt."

 

 

In the new dex nowhere does it say that NL have few raptor cults [because it would mean other legions have non]

No, it just says that Raptors are rare in general.

 

In the 3.5 Codex Raptors were limited to 0-1 for most armies (some like WE, DG, EC and TS could not use Raptors at all), while only the Night Lords were not limited and could fill all their Fast Attack choices with Raptors if they wanted. Similarly, Obliterators were limited to 0-1 for most armies back then, while only Iron Warriors were not limited. The 4th Edition Codex dropped those limitations, but that was likely done just so that players could still construct "Night Lords" or "Iron Warriors" forces. You don't need 6 Raptors or Obliterators units to play Night Lords or Iron Warriors. Quite the opposite, if you take more than 1 unit for your Black Legion, then you are not really playing a fluffy army.

And by the logic of demanding that Night Lords should get Raptors as Troops because they were not limited to 0-1 in the previous Codex, one could just as well demand that Iron Warriors should get Obliterators as Troops.

[Gree]

Jump pack Troops? Night Lords never had that.

wait wait wait. Didnt NL have like a grand company so x X chapter size unit of jump pack only dudes. or do we mean the 3.5 dex . because in the 3.5 dex they had more FA and scoring worked in a different way[bikes and raptors just did] . So at least for me the 3.5 dex they had troops as bikes or jump troops.

 

They use more Raptors than other warbands, but they are rare none the less.

in the old dex they told us that NL had a lot and that they had a full grand company of those guys . In the new dex nowhere does it say that NL have few raptor cults [because it would mean other legions have non]

 

Actually no Grand Companies exist in Night Lords fluff. I have no read any in their Index Astartes or in the 3.5 codex. In fact Soul Hunter's 10th Company was implied to be of somewere between a hundred and three hundred men pre heresy and seemed closer to a Post-Heresy Battle Company than a Grand Company.

 

If A-D-B can clarify this then this would be great.

 

In fact I'll start a topic in the Horus Heresy section.

[Dark Mechanicum]

2 things

 

Quixis: the quote is Malcharion the War Sage from Soul Hunter

 

Legatus: In several of the books you have Dreadnoughts who were "sane" and not the "lets be chained up all the time." The two I speak of are: The Warmonger from the Word Bearer novels and he was barely sane. And Malcharion from Soul Hunter and he had never spent a waking moment after death as a Dreadnought except for that one awakening. So not insane at all.

 

On the use of the Blood Angel codex for Night Lords. It fits more to the fluff. I have the ability with a Blood Angel Librarian to make other units lose leadership and then have to run when they fail a leadership test. Yes, I get Jump Packs as troops. NO big deal, and for some their not Night Lords. But you have to remember this: Most of the Raptor Cults were Night Lords. In every other legion they were Assault Marines. It is only in the Night Lords and possibly the Raven Guard that you have teh term "Raptor" used because of the conotation.

 

In the Chaos Dex this is the standard list I would use for a Night Lord army that was "puritan"

Chaos Lord, Chosen, Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Chaos Space Marines, Raptors, Bikes, most of the heavy support minus obliterators and defilers.

 

In the BA dex I have more options and am able to make a list that shows the background for these guys. Yes the Night Lord background is very small and doesn't have alot to it. But because of the holes it could work. Also the Night Lords are one of the few Legions that scavenge and steal. So I could see alot of loyalist gear being used because it was looted.

[Legatus]

Legatus: In several of the books you have Dreadnoughts who were "sane" and not the "lets be chained up all the time." The two I speak of are: The Warmonger from the Word Bearer novels and he was barely sane. And Malcharion from Soul Hunter and he had never spent a waking moment after death as a Dreadnought except for that one awakening. So not insane at all.

A Chaos Marine pretty much just having been put into a Sarcophagus would probably not be insane, no. But do you think that is a good example of a typical Chaos Space Marine dreadnought?

 

 

On the use of the Blood Angel codex for Night Lords. It fits more to the fluff. I have the ability with a Blood Angel Librarian to make other units lose leadership and then have to run when they fail a leadership test.

One unit that can instill fear in enemy units. Yeah, that is suitable for Night Lords. +1 fluffiness

 

And not only will the enemy get to know fear, now all of the Night Lords Chaos Marines suddenly become super loyal to their cause and selfless due to ATSKNF. So that's Chosen, Terminators, Chaos Marines, Raptors, Bikes and Havocs that should not have that rule. -6 fluffiness

 

 

In the Chaos Dex this is the standard list I would use for a Night Lord army that was "puritan"

Chaos Lord, Chosen, Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Chaos Space Marines, Raptors, Bikes, most of the heavy support minus obliterators and defilers.

 

In the BA dex I have more options

You forgot sorcerers. And what new "option" does the Codex Blood Angels bring? Scouts? Attack Bikes? "Super Raptors"?

[Dark Mechanicum]

Sorcerors are not something that "puritan" Night Lords use. They are psykers and thus slaves to the warp.

 

all Night Lords are loyal to one cause: Bleeding the Imperium for the death of their Primarch. Plus they are still Astartes, they dont know fear. Night Lords cause fear so I can see them having that again. It's not like they suddenly forgot how to ignore fear.

 

Attack Bikes I could see, Scouts...its possible they do have to recruit somehow. Can't spend whatever the time is without getting numbers up.

 

Malcharion hadn't been awake for the entire time. So he was pretty much a sane dreadnought and it still worked.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

fluff wise,

 

Nightlords stike in darkness at weak enemy positions to enable total mental victory as well as physical gighting,

 

I believe they are masters of shock and stealth tactics to allowing them to make a land raider appear in your base is something i think thwy ould be capable of, cuz lets face it a land raider out of nowhere would mean chane your trousers time!

 

Chaos alliance no, they use chaos as a tool and fight with furies,

They still have recreuits drawn from rapists murders and theives so i believe fo ra chaotic warband a successor chapter chouls be drawn from a rouge beater or murderer who loves depravity and lens themselfs to slaneesh/ khorne or w.e

 

I believe they would strike fast so the use of raptors to pick of flanking units and weak areas would be esential to them.

 

Chaos lords wouldnt really recieve demonic giffts as they (like before) hate chaos

 

of all the traitors their gene seed is the most pure.

 

and many may more reasons

[Gree]

One unit that can instill fear in enemy units. Yeah, that is suitable for Night Lords. +1 fluffiness

 

Two. The Librarian plus the Masks that the Sagnuinary Guard can take. I guess Dante's ability could easily be made into a ''fear'' causing ability.

 

Sorcerors are not something that "puritan" Night Lords use. They are psykers and thus slaves to the warp.

 

Pre-Heresy Night Lords had Librarians according to A Thousand Sons.

 

My warband is fairly puritan with the exception of limited use of Icons. (No Chaos worship though) and they use trained Psykers to tell the future and provide battlefield support.

[Legatus]

Sorcerors are not something that "puritan" Night Lords use. They are psykers and thus slaves to the warp.

The Night Lords Index Astartes specifically refers to their Sorcerers. They suffer from a similar fate as their Primarch, often having fits and dark visions of the future.

 

 

all Night Lords are loyal to one cause: Bleeding the Imperium for the death of their Primarch.

Actually they are pretty much looking for a weak prey they can slaughter for their own amusement. They have no big agenda.

 

 

Plus they are still Astartes, they dont know fear. Night Lords cause fear so I can see them having that again. It's not like they suddenly forgot how to ignore fear.

They may not be affraid. But they do not want to die either. This is how the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines introduction explained the difference between loyalists and Chaos Marines (a difference that has persisted ever since 2nd Edition):

 

"The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefor does not benefit from 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away."

 

Chaos Marines are egoistig and selfish. They fight for look, for glory or for their own enjoyment. They do not fight out of loyalty to their Lord, and most of them will be all to happy to take his place when he should fall in combat. When Chaos Marines decide that the cause is not worth giving up their life for, they will retreat.

[Lexington]

Yeah, I can see what you mean here, guys, and I'm going to try something similar. The current Codex just doesn't represent the fluff like it should, so I'm going to start using the Blood Angels book. An army that almost never breaks? Using terror tactics and deep-striking units? Enormously powerful characters who simply destroy the enemy's units without so much as a second thought? It's perfect. Let's face it, GW dropped the ball on our Codex, and though it pains me to do it, my love of representing the fluff on the battlefield trumps the need to use the current, anemic book.

 

This is going to be the best Tyranid army ever.

[Yogi]

Maybe OP just wants to win easier, and thinks blood angels are lame.

 

Isn't that a good enough reason? Does everyone have to carry the chaos codex cross to everygame?

 

 

Space wolves IMO stole the World Eater codex (aside from the speeders and psykers, but hell the blood pact have psykers now, fluff keeps changing).

 

The thing is I always myself flip flop on this issue becasue you are practically guarenteed to eventuatlly meet an opponent with the opinion of legatus, that you are a traitor and a heretic to your codex.. but hell thats almost seems appropiate now doesn't it. :tu:

 

Do it OP, but only if you have a thick skin.