Night Lords with blood angels codex

[TheDarkApostle]

all Night Lords are loyal to one cause: Bleeding the Imperium for the death of their Primarch.

Actually they are pretty much looking for a weak prey they can slaughter for their own amusement. They have no big agenda.

Not everyone does that, nowhere does it state that there aren't some who hold true to their old orders.

Plus they are still Astartes, they dont know fear. Night Lords cause fear so I can see them having that again. It's not like they suddenly forgot how to ignore fear.

They may not be affraid. But they do not want to die either. This is how the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines introduction explained the difference between loyalists and Chaos Marines (a difference that has persisted ever since 2nd Edition):

 

"The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefor does not benefit from 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away."

 

Chaos Marines are egoistig and selfish. They fight for look, for glory or for their own enjoyment. They do not fight out of loyalty to their Lord, and most of them will be all to happy to take his place when he should fall in combat. When Chaos Marines decide that the cause is not worth giving up their life for, they will retreat.

That quote you provided was just as you say from the 3'rd Ed', a time when the Legions weren't fleshed out on alot and not to mention a quote regarding the Legions as a whole, one could even go as far as to claim that it's more from the perspective of a member of the Black Legion than a member of the Night Lords.

 

TDA

[Legatus]

That quote you provided was just as you say from the 3'rd Ed', a time when the Legions weren't fleshed out

The concept of Chaos Space Marines was already very much fleshed out since 2nd Edition. Imperial Space Marines are noble and selfless, Chaos Space Marines are evil and selfish. Ever since then loyal Marines had a morale special rule while Chaos Marines did not. In 2nd Edition Imperial Marines had the 'Break Test' rule which prevented them from immediately running away after a first failed test. Chaos Marines did not have that rule. In 3rd Edition the rules were changed a lot, and here loyal Marines got the characteristic 'And They Shall Know No Fear' special rule. Again Chaos Marines did not get that rule in 3rd Edition, with the specific explanation given in the previous quote. The following Codices have continied that paradigm. Imperial Space Marines get ATSKNF, Chaos Space Marines do not. It is the main distinguishing element between the two types of Space Marines, aside from the slightly different weapon options.

[TheDarkApostle]

I don't dispute that, however I'd say you missed the point I was trying to make Legatus.

 

TDA

[Legatus]

If you wanted to argue that some Legions have a different mindset than others, then the Night Lords would be about the last of the Traitor Legions to deserve 'ATSKNF'.

[TheDarkApostle]

Once more, I'm not talking about an entire Legion, however, a single warband who has stayed together since the dawn of the grand crusade?

 

I wouldn't call it impossible.

 

TDA

[Lord_Caerolion]

Once more, I'm not talking about an entire Legion, however, a single warband who has stayed together since the dawn of the grand crusade?

 

I wouldn't call it impossible.

 

TDA

 

Exactly. Legatus, I know the fluff said that a few editions ago, but we have examples of Night Lords who aren't simple thugs and rapists with power armour on, and who believe in the cause of destroying the traitor Emperor. Soul Hunter (and Throne of Lies) shows there are whole Companies of Night Lords left who care about avenging their father above looting some poor Hivers.

 

Put another way, one of the things I like about 40k is that you can create your own characters. They have a rich history that we can work with. To be simply told "no, your men and characters are all death row inmates who care about nothing other than beating, pillaging and murdering. They just like killing and money, that's it, nothing else" is a bit insulting. No other army is dictated how they should act by other fans to this degree. We see different Thousand Sons characters, different Emperors Children, different Eldar, but for some reason, every single Night Lord must fit the same stereotype. I know the Night Lords Legion was largely comprised of criminals, but to see the entire character of the army devolve into "hehe, they're thugs" saddens me.

[Rain]

Wait, what? First off, it never "devolved" into them being thugs, they were thugs right after the original nebulous fluff of them worshiping Khorne, they were thugs first, then Lord of the Night wrote in the whole heroic Night Lords thing, even though it did so somewhat facetiously and showed that Sahaal was deluded.

 

Also, there are Emp's Kids that aren't all about cutting themselves and Hellraiser cosplay? Name some. How about some Thousand Sons that aren't megalomaniacal sorcerers? Again, really don't thing there are any. Sure not all Eldar act the same, but Eldar are a big tent, within each craftword they have their stereotypes too.

 

I don't know, I just don't understand people that pick an army with certain traits and then pick some odd list because they want to impose some new arbitrary traits onto the army. I get if you picked the army at a time when the fluff was X and it changed to Y and now you're unhappy and play around the original fluff, but the band of thugs was the original fluff, and there really isn't new fluff to speak of, the "puritan" NL are just one guy, who is now tooling around the universe with a magic hat and his Inquisitor girlfriend. ADB's NL really aren't very pure, and he himself says so, they are lead by a daemon and many are quite corrupted.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

A couple of notes from the OP:

 

1. I do have thick skin, otherwise, I would never have posted this.

 

2. Not all Night Lords were thugs. Quite a few of them were vigilantes who fought alongside Kurze and were as loyal to the primarch and to each other as any chapter battle brother.

 

3. (ATSKNF) We can debate the psychology and ideology of Night Lords and ATSKNF until the world ends. We know that legions residing in the eye of terror are fighting what is essentially a losing battle with time and the Imperium. Yes, there are forge worlds in/near the eye of terror; yes, there are limited ways in which the fallen legions can replace their losses and yes, the forces of Chaos can concentrate themselves on a target in a way that makes it difficult for the stretched Imperium to respond. These facts only postpone the inevitable. We know that Night Lords at the very least have to scavenge their own parts, weapons and ammo. They are undersupplied, understaffed and, if fluff is to be believed, entirely untrusted by the other Chaos forces.

 

Therefore, under such conditions, I posit that it is perfectly reasonable that there could be one or more warbands of NL who, having concluded that the entire galaxy has abandoned them, have banded together in a way that closely resembles the selfless way they did during the Crusade, after purging their rogue elements, of course. Such a group might even recruit by looking for warriors like Talos who are still dependable and proud of their Legion.

 

4. (The Red Thirst and Death Company, I don't use death company, but if I wanted a DC dread, I wouldn't be very remorseful about using one) We know that even outside Vandred's warband there are Night Lords who have visions much like the primarch. We do not know how common it is, nor the full effects of these visions, but it's not a stretch to say that that a small group of Night Lords could go crazy on the eve of a battle.

 

5. ADB makes note several times during Soul Hunter that the Night Lords are a kind of shadowy reflection of the Blood Angels, right down to the Legion symbol.

 

6. For those of you who are fascist enough to still not be convinced, odds have it I will never convince you that I have done anything nobler than taking a blue sharpie to the idiot on the cover of C:BA, I have made this clever list to illustrate my frustration with C:CSM

 

Stuff I can't really use from CSM if I want to play a fluffy NL army

Possessed

Khorne Berzerkers

Thousand Sons

Plague Marines

Noise Marines

Spawn

Summoned Lesser Daemons

Summoned Greater Daemons

Obliterators

Any Mark of Chaos

 

Stuff I can't really use from C:BA if I want to play a fluffy NL army

Land Speeders

Land Raider variants (thought it wouldn't be hard to field a looted crusader once in a while)

Scouts

Plasma cannons

Assault Cannons

Storm Shields (not completely out, just sparingly used)

I was going to put Sanguinary Guard here, but since their armor (and jump packs) predate the heresy

 

Final result: Neither codex reflects the NL well, but as C:BA reflects them better, I am going with that.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Said it so emphatically that it got said twice. :drool:

 

Good on you, MoMX.

[Quixus]

5. ADB makes note several times during Soul Hunter that the Night Lords are a kind of shadowy reflection of the Blood Angels, right down to the Legion symbol.

I don't remember that. Can you point me to the pages or quoter the relevant passages, please?

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

@Quixus: tragically, I gave away my copy of Soul Hunter.

@Khestra: Not sure what happened with that, but duly edited.

[A D-B]

...the "puritan" NL are just one guy, who is now tooling around the universe with a magic hat and his Inquisitor girlfriend.

 

I just laughed, which scared my cat.

[Quixus]

Talos is pretty puritan as well. But since he was not separated from his battle-brothers for 10k years, he has to make some compromises with the rest of the warband.

 

At least how Krieg Acerbus and his cronies are depicted in Lord of the Night, I doubt Talos would want to be joined with them any more than Zso Sahaal.

[Legatus]

Stuff I can't really use from C:BA if I want to play a fluffy NL army

Land Speeders

Land Raider variants (thought it wouldn't be hard to field a looted crusader once in a while)

Scouts

Plasma cannons

Assault Cannons

Storm Shields (not completely out, just sparingly used)

I was going to put Sanguinary Guard here, but since their armor (and jump packs) predate the heresy

You also cannot use

 

Death Company

Librarian Dreadnoughts

Sanguinary Guard

Honour Guard

Vanguard Veterans

Attack Bikes

Assault Terminators

Sanguinary Priests

Razorbacks

Baal predators

Scout Bikes

Stormraven Gunships

Whirlwinds

 

If you feel that you can make those units work and explain them somehow, you could just as well make those CSM choices you listed work and explain them somehow. The Index Astartes article describes how the Night Lords will often cooperate with cult units of other Legions, for example. What, Vanguar Veterans are just Elite Raptors? So why couldn't you use an Icon of Khorne to make Elite Raptors?

[Gree]

but the band of thugs was the original fluff, and there really isn't new fluff to speak of, the "puritan" NL are just one guy, who is now tooling around the universe with a magic hat and his Inquisitor girlfriend.

 

Mita Ashyn: ''Sahaal dear would you take out the trash? I have a pedicure at six.''

Sahaal: ''But honey I'm polishing my crown!''

Mita: ''Sahaal.......''

Sahaal: ''Fine, I'll get the trash.'' <_<

 

Also, there are Emp's Kids that aren't all about cutting themselves and Hellraiser cosplay? Name some.

 

Oh, that's easy. Index Astartes Emperor's Children notes that there is some Emperor's Children who did not become Noise Marines. Upon reading Fulgrim you have Emperor's Children who all worship Slaanesh but in different ways.

 

Instead of your stereotypical Noise Marine why can't I have an Emperor's Child who prefers to use scalding flame to produce pain or have an arrogant Lucius-esque swordsman? Slaanesh is not the stereotypical ''sex and drugs god''. You can go so much more than that, you can easily explore Slaanesh in different ways.

 

For my Black Legion I always imagined my own warband to be a tight-knit and disciplined lot, held together by my Lord and by ties of vengence. Most of the regular non-Cult Astartes are not your stereotypical ''main, kill, burn'' but are rather more professional and highly experianced soldiers.

 

ADB's NL really aren't very pure, and he himself says so, they are lead by a daemon and many are quite corrupted.

 

I loved Soul Hunter but Talos does not act like a thug at all. He protects his slaves out of pragmatism (And even takes revenge on the prisoners who attacked Octavia) seems more concerned with the warband's welfare than killing people for the lulz and even when he tortures the Callidus Assassin in Throne of Lies he only does it for a pragmatic reason and puts her out of her misery at the end instead of leaving her to slowly die. Talos consistantly shows his disgust for the Chaos powers.

 

What, Vanguar Veterans are just Elite Raptors? So why couldn't you use an Icon of Khorne to make Elite Raptors?

 

In my experiance, while playing against Blood Angels, Vanguard veterans tend to be better than Raptors with Icon of Khorne. But that's just me.

 

Although I always liked the the thought of modeling a Chaos Apothecary other than Fabius Bile and using it as somethign other than a Bile count's as.

[Quixus]

If you feel that you can make those units work and explain them somehow, you could just as well make those CSM choices you listed work and explain them somehow.

Let me try:

 

Honour Guard, Vanguard Veterans Fluff wise they could be Chosen with different rules.

Assault Terminators Chaos Terminators with twin Lightning claws are possible. Hammernators wouldn't be very fluffy

 

The thing is fluff and rules are somewhat disconnected.

 

You have a piratical band of Chaos Marines who are not so much int Chaos worship. Now they defeat some of their loyalist brothers and have a weird fast Rhino chassis with TLAC on their hands with only the tracks destroyed. Leaving this thing to rot or removing the weapon to make it a proper Rhino sounds silly and very loyalist to me.

 

Especially if your paint scheme shows that the new tech was stolen form loyalists, I'd have no problem. If someone is being a starchass, just tell them:"You are not fighting the VIII Legion, but the Batman Marines, BA successor. Happy now?"

[Legatus]

In my experiance, while playing against Blood Angels, Vanguard veterans tend to be better than Raptors with Icon of Khorne.

That's hardly the point, is it?

 

 

You have a piratical band of Chaos Marines who are not so much int Chaos worship. Now they defeat some of their loyalist brothers and have a weird fast Rhino chassis with TLAC on their hands with only the tracks destroyed. Leaving this thing to rot or removing the weapon to make it a proper Rhino sounds silly and very loyalist to me.

I thought that only Blood Angels had the souped up engines and were not telling anyone else how to make them. Sounds like it would be pretty rare to come across some of them. It would probably be easier to obtain Land Speeders.

[Gree]

In my experiance, while playing against Blood Angels, Vanguard veterans tend to be better than Raptors with Icon of Khorne.

That's hardly the point, is it?

 

Why not? If someone used the Blood Angels Codex's Vanguard veterans for their Elite Raptors I certainly would not mind at all. They seem to fit better then the current ones at any rate.

 

You have a piratical band of Chaos Marines who are not so much int Chaos worship. Now they defeat some of their loyalist brothers and have a weird fast Rhino chassis with TLAC on their hands with only the tracks destroyed. Leaving this thing to rot or removing the weapon to make it a proper Rhino sounds silly and very loyalist to me.

I thought that only Blood Angels had the souped up engines and were not telling anyone else how to make them. Sounds like it would be pretty rare to come across some of them. It would probably be easier to obtain Land Speeders.

 

Are you really going to deny the Night Lords their Batmobile?

[Quixus]

I thought that only Blood Angels had the souped up engines and were not telling anyone else how to make them. Sounds like it would be pretty rare to come across some of them. It would probably be easier to obtain Land Speeders.

AFAIK its Blood Angels and Successors for overcharged engines, otherwise you could not even make fluffy BA Successors with vehicles.

 

It's true that some tech will be easier to obtain than others, this does not however mean that it cannot be stolen. Talos for example has a BA Power Sword.

 

Are you really going to deny the Night Lords their Batmobile?

Damn, now I have the picture of a Nightlords Biker on that bike from The Dark Knight in my mind. I don't see the connection between the Batmobile and Rhinos/Razorbacks though, to many seats. Baal Predators seem to be too heavily armed for a Batmobile.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Why couldn't I use Sanguinary Guard? Their armor and weapons all predate the heresy. It says so in the codex. In fact, I would argue that with the death mask, they are PERFECT for this army.

 

Also @ Legatus:

I explained death company, I wouldn't use them, but the DC Dreads could be an excellent stand-in for a dreadnought that didn't weather the heresy so well.

 

Librarian dreadnoughts: egh.. this entry in the codex is an oversight for so many reasons, but it will suffice to say that if one chapter has them, all chapters should have them, or none at all.

 

Honor Guard/Vanguard Vets: Oh, so when a raptor gets really good at his job, he has to hand in his jump pack and be a terminator whilst his Captain flies on alone?

 

Attack Bikes: I really enjoy this low-tech, high-speed option and I think it fits nicely. A warband strapped for parts and support would likely turn to something they could easily build in a garage from stripped down parts.

 

Sanguinary Priests: Even if I didn't already have fluff for these guys, they are apothecaries the way apothecaries should be.

 

Razorbacks: You are absolutely correct and I forgot to add it.

 

Baal Predators: Again, low tech, high speed option. I could see maybe with the flamestorm cannon, but you are right about the AC variant

 

Scout Bikes: No one uses scout bikes. Moot.

 

 

Stormraven gunships: Sigh.. so much potential. Ahh well, we can't have everything. I concede that you are correct on this one. DAMMIT I WANT ONE THOUGH!

 

Whirlwinds: See Scout Bikes.

[Rain]

Oh, that's easy. Index Astartes Emperor's Children notes that there is some Emperor's Children who did not become Noise Marines. Upon reading Fulgrim you have Emperor's Children who all worship Slaanesh but in different ways.

 

Instead of your stereotypical Noise Marine why can't I have an Emperor's Child who prefers to use scalding flame to produce pain or have an arrogant Lucius-esque swordsman? Slaanesh is not the stereotypical ''sex and drugs god''. You can go so much more than that, you can easily explore Slaanesh in different ways.

 

Lucius is covered in scars and has a long coiling tongue as well as a living barbed whip. Your other examples are not canon, they are derived from Refuse's ideas from his website and his work in general. Don't get me wrong, I actually liked his work, and think it jives much better than "puritan" Night Lords with actual canon, but it's still fan material. Unless you're referring to fantasy Slaanesh which is a bit different, and more inspired by Marquis de Sade (who was a noble writer/beater).

 

Also, while yes the IA does (I think, haven't read it in years to be completely honest) state that not all EC are part of the noise marine cult, it does not saw what they actually are, and all of the pictures in the IA are of very debased looking marines, if I had to guess, I would guess that the non-noise-marine EC are simply sadomasochistic without the aspect of sound, in other words, they are even more like cenobites than actual noise marines, which I always thought was a weird fit for the god of pleasure anyway, but again this is my conjecture, so until we get canon on it it should not be presented as "the way things are".

 

Also, while Talos is "nice" most of his warband seems less so, especially the Exalted, his terminators, Uzas, and potential even Cyrion, but I guess ADB is God on this issue, so if he says 10th Company are fighting for truth, justice, and the Konradian way then they are, I can't argue fiction with the guy that thought it up.

[Legatus]

Why couldn't I use Sanguinary Guard? Their armor and weapons all predate the heresy.

The problem is not that it's not pre-heresy. The problem is that it's a jump pack squad where every member is wearing master crafted (or chaos) armour and is swinging a two handed power weapon combined with wrist mounted short range storm bolters. Not exactly your typical Raptors gear.

 

 

Honor Guard/Vanguard Vets: Oh, so when a raptor gets really good at his job, he has to hand in his jump pack and be a terminator whilst his Captain flies on alone?

Raptors are generally described a sa cult of their own, who only fight for the warband. Even when they were part o fthe Legions 10,000 years ago they kept to themselves and away from teh rest of the force. So they would not reall make the personal bodyguard of the Lord.

 

 

As I said, you can also use Chaos Icons to get "Elite Raptors". And while those would not be as good as Vanguard Veterans or other choices, the point is not about getting the stronger rules for your squads, is it?

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

It's about getting stronger rules in the sense that, if I use C:CSM, my 'veteran' raptors lose decades of 'veteran-ness' when the guy with the conspicuous stick gets sniped. It's like the whole squad mentally checks out after one guy goes down.

 

If that is me being lame, then I am absolutely on board the lame train.

 

I'm in class now, more to come in a moment.

[Gree]

Lucius is covered in scars and has a long coiling tongue as well as a living barbed whip.

 

...And? His profile makes it clear that combat is his first priority.

 

Your other examples are not canon, they are derived from Refuse's ideas from his website and his work in general.

 

Not really. It's more of a logical progression. I don't believe that every single Chaos Legion warband is the same in worship or practices. Even in A-D-B's work we are shown several different types of Chaos Marines in the same Legion. It's hardly a stretch to think of others.

 

Half the Legions, unlike the more organised codex chapters, have been broken up by Civil war in the Eye of Terror. A world full of endless variation and Chaos. Some of these warbands have spent millenia or longer. It's ridiculous to think that there are no variations among them at all. You can't seriously tell me that every Night Lord must the the same as the next Night Lords and every Emperor's Child must be the same as the next Emperor's Child. (In fact Imperial Armor 6 even tells us that half of the Chaos warbands like the Skulltakers and the Lords of Decay are simply splinter offshoots of the original legions. the Sanctifed where pretty much Word Bearers who went Khornate full on instead of worshipping the other gods)

 

Of course I don't mean things like World Eaters painting their armor blue and declaring whole-heartedly for Tzeentch, but given the sheer variety of Chaos, there must be plenty of variation. Can you honestly say that my warband of swordsmen adrenaline junkie EC is impossible fluffwise?

 

And how many times have the Emperor's Children really appeared in fluff? I recall a couple of Marines appearing in minor roles in Black Library books and we don't have too much information about them other than their IA article.

 

Also, while Talos is "nice" most of his warband seems less so, especially the Exalted, his terminators, Uzas, and potential even Cyrion, but I guess ADB is God on this issue, so if he says 10th Company are fighting for truth, justice, and the Konradian way then they are, I can't argue fiction with the guy that thought it up.

 

I actually never really got the Chaos vibe from anyone but the Exalted and Uzas, even the Atramentar never struck me as really Chaotic. and even the guys from Seventh Claw showed that they held bonds of brotherhood with their fellow warriors. I would hardly call the 10th Company perfect, but a good chunk appears to be more than you claim they are.

 

Raptors are generally described a sa cult of their own, who only fight for the warband. Even when they were part o fthe Legions 10,000 years ago they kept to themselves and away from teh rest of the force. So they would not reall make the personal bodyguard of the Lord.

 

Actually in my fluff I do have the Raptors as the bodyguard of the Lord. They act as essentially the warband's elite and the Lord himself furfills the duel role of Raptor leader and Chaos Lord. Ten thousand years ago they where apart of his command wing when he was captain of a battle company and they still serve in a similar role today. I always imagined the Raptors of my warband closer to conventional assault marines then regular Raptors. (Partially because of my Lord's iron rule and because the warband has not experianced that much time compared to some of the older warbands.) In fact I don't use the actual Raptor models. I just use the metal backpacks and glue them on regular Chaos Marines. I've done this for years and I've never heard anyone complain about it on the internet or on tabletop.

[Rain]

The scars are from him cutting himself, he cut those scars into himself, they aren't just battle wounds. Also, he considers death "transcendent pleasure" and has combat drugs constantly pumped into his system. Sure he takes pride in his swordsmanship, but so do a lot of champions, that's not what makes him who he is, the weird Slaaneshi stuff is. Also, you could get anywhere with "logical progression" and if you want to theme your army that way fine, but don't try to pass it off as canon when it's only your interpretation and don't get upset if people consider it unfluffy as that is their interpretation as much as your theme is yours.

 

Also I never said that the NL were "chaotic" I said that they were corrupt and lacked a true cause or crusade. I grant that Talos is a bit of a divergence (a bit...he's still pretty cynical about the war) but most of the 10th appeared to me at least to just be doing what they do because they don't know what else they can do and not because they think it will bring about some glorious vengeance or whatever. Maybe I read it wrong, which is why, again, considering that we have the author here we should let him explain.

 

All that said, yes there are splinter warbands that have been mentioned in FW work (though I think the Skulltakers are the same ones as in the codex, that is, a chapter that was simply conquered by Zhufor and "inducted" into the World Eaters) and these are now canon, but just because a Khornate splinter of WB that call themselves Sanctified are now canon does not mean that for some reason "pure" Night Lords are now canon as well, it just makes no sense.

 

Finally and perhaps most importantly, a lot of this has to do with the fact that 40k is fiction. In real life, there are obviously no organizations that are as homogenous as it seems the legions/chapters/whatever are, but then this isn't real. Also keep in mind that marines are genetically coded to share many traits and then drilled since early childhood to be a certain way and raised in a certain very specific environment. Nature and nurture come together to make them some specific way. Even then though, it can be argued either way but the fact remains that in this fictional universe, factions are built around ideas.

 

There are "Roman marines" "Evil religious fanatic marines" "Cynical serial killer marines" "Crazy berzerker marines" etc. The factions are strongly based on archetypes and follow those archetypes throughout, leading to "unrealistically" homogeneous factions because it's fiction. In other words, if you don't want to play "cynical serial killer marines" you can just play some other faction with some other archetype. It's like creating a mage in an RPG and then saying that "well, it's unrealistic that I can't use an axe if I want and train to be really effective with it" instead of just creating a warrior, it's not reality, it's a fantasy setting and game system, so, to quote John Goodman "there are rules!"