Night Lords with blood angels codex

[Gree]

The scars are from him cutting himself, he cut those scars into himself, they aren't just battle wounds. Also, he considers death "transcendent pleasure" and has combat drugs constantly pumped into his system. Sure he takes pride in his swordsmanship, but so do a lot of champions, that's not what makes him who he is, the weird Slaaneshi stuff is.

 

Um, no, I kind of recall the whole swordsmanship deal being important. And the scars come from the intital shame of being defeatd by Loken and desire to remember battle.

 

Also, you could get anywhere with "logical progression" and if you want to theme your army that way fine, but don't try to pass it off as canon when it's only your interpretation and don't get upset if people consider it unfluffy as that is their interpretation as much as your theme is yours.

 

I don't believe I ever tried to pass of anything as canon. I was just pointing out that it was certainly plausible that it could happen and I refuse to be straightjacketed into narrow sterotypes.

 

Also I never said that the NL were "chaotic" I said that they were corrupt and lacked a true cause or crusade. I grant that Talos is a bit of a divergence (a bit...he's still pretty cynical about the war) but most of the 10th appeared to me at least to just be doing what they do because they don't know what else they can do and not because they think it will bring about some glorious vengeance or whatever. Maybe I read it wrong, which is why, again, considering that we have the author here we should let him explain.

 

Then I'm afriad I'll have to disagree here. I did not share your same interpretation.

 

Finally and perhaps most importantly, a lot of this has to do with the fact that 40k is fiction. In real life, there are obviously no organizations that are as homogenous as it seems the legions/chapters/whatever are, but then this isn't real. Also keep in mind that marines are genetically coded to share many traits and then drilled since early childhood to be a certain way and raised in a certain very specific environment. Nature and nurture come together to make them some specific way. Even then though, it can be argued either way but the fact remains that in this fictional universe, factions are built around ideas.

 

And keep in mind that in ten millenia, in a reality-warping area of space inhabited by daemons and other entitites, things kind of.........change. both the codices and the Black Library novels show us that even members of the same Legion are hardly the same compeltely. (Even in Soul Hunter Talos notes that there are different political factions and beliefs in the NL)

 

There are "Roman marines" "Evil religious fanatic marines" "Cynical serial killer marines" "Crazy berzerker marines" etc. The factions are strongly based on archetypes and follow those archetypes throughout, leading to "unrealistically" homogeneous factions because it's fiction. In other words, if you don't want to play "cynical serial killer marines" you can just play some other faction with some other archetype. It's like creating a mage in an RPG and then saying that "well, it's unrealistic that I can't use an axe if I want and train to be really effective with it" instead of just creating a warrior, it's not reality, it's a fantasy setting and game system, so, to quote John Goodman "there are rules!"

 

Except with GW they encourage you to make up your own fluff. I recall reading about Jervis Johnson saying that the most important rule is to have fun. I can pull out several White Dwarfs detailing various ''count'as'' conversions. I remember a contest held years ago when the 4th edition Codex was released, where GW wanted people to make up DIY chapters (Along with a guide in the White Dwarf how to do it). Gav Thorpe speaks on his blog about that same sort of creativity, etc, etc.

 

The thing is, creativity and counts' as is encouraged by GW. There are rules, yes, but they take a back-seat to creativity and fun.

[Rain]

Ok well, I guess all that can be said on the topic has been. Yeah his nose got broken by Loken, but according to codex descriptions he cut those patterns because he "began to equate pain with success". At the end of the day, I guess my issue is not so much with "counts as" per se as it is with the fact that in almost every instance I see it, it's a cop out to use a stronger codex that then makes fluff up to patch it instead of actually coming from an interesting idea.

 

I especially love when people point out TWC as good counts as berzerkers on juggers even though that unit never existed to begin with and TWC just happen to be a point and click deathstar that is far easier to use than counter. That, and I'm a fluff nazi in general especially when it comes to Chaos, having played/collected/read about Chaos for almost a decade now.

[TheDarkApostle]

All of ye who raise the Slaanesh drugs card, I'd like to point you to A, the Liber Chaotica and B, the Warriors of Chaos Armybook.

 

I'm sure you'll find those two sources contradicting that card alot.

 

TDA

[Dark Mechanicum]

wow, take a couple of days off the site and you get fun.

 

A NL warband that is looting a defeated enemy for parts: hmmm, in The Core I see 6 Terminator Suits from the Salamander Chapter brought on board the Night Lord ship for desecration into Chaos so they could be use, and wait there is more: An Assault Cannon is on one of them.

 

Assault Terminators could be used just all LC as somebody mentioned.

 

Hell, if most of you went to the Night Lord forum and read up on the "commanders" meeting you would blink at how different we have everything with mixtures of full blown Chaos worshippers and Daemon Princes to those who abscond Chaos and refuse to do any dealings with them. Yes, most of the Legion has a criminal aspect: Doesn't all mean rapists. just means you could show a diverse field of Criminal looks.

 

On Raptors: hmmm, their Raptors. Some joined up with Night Lord warbands, others are from different Legions and renegades. It is a fact that the most come from the Night Lords. So, making them how somebody sees them isn't against canon at all. What Gree said about gluing the metal backpacks on plastic chaos space marines. A friend of mine does that for his WORD BEARERS and has fanatical jump troopers that just look cool.

 

On brotherhood within the Night Lords: For some it's there, for others it is not. Look at First Claw itself:

Talos: Hates Uzas and the Exalted but wont kill them because they need the numbers

Cyrion: Follows Talos but is his own wild card.

Xarl: Would love to just cap Cyrion and Uzas but will not.

Uzas: is a chaos worshipping bastard. enough said.

the new guy from 7th whose name slips mine: he came, almost died, but survived when his formor sergent SACRIFICED himself to save him.

 

hmm, I see some brotherhood in the only full description of a squad within a warband. Yes its not completely canon, Yes its a BL book. But to major Night Lord players it gives a viewpoint into how a Night Lord warband and a couple others could work.

 

Hell, my own Commander is a LC wielding Terminator armor wearing commander who strikes from teleportation attacks with his bodyguards. Another one is a Jump packer with Raptors who just goes for the kill. Not a Raptor cult but Raptors from the VIII Legion that stayed. My own minor stuff for fluff.

 

Each person does theirs differently and he shouldn't have to justify himself in using a codex. Just make sure it works and yes Legatus I agree. NO Stormravens for now since they are still too new and only used by the Blood Angels (and Successors) and the Grey Knights.

[Dan The Deamon]

Mercutian. Born of nobility, but not above making a "tactical withdrawal, at speed" in the face of a warhound.

Awesomely written.

[Brother Ambroz]

The scars are from him cutting himself, he cut those scars into himself, they aren't just battle wounds. Also, he considers death "transcendent pleasure" and has combat drugs constantly pumped into his system. Sure he takes pride in his swordsmanship, but so do a lot of champions, that's not what makes him who he is, the weird Slaaneshi stuff is. Also, you could get anywhere with "logical progression" and if you want to theme your army that way fine, but don't try to pass it off as canon when it's only your interpretation and don't get upset if people consider it unfluffy as that is their interpretation as much as your theme is yours.

 

Also I never said that the NL were "chaotic" I said that they were corrupt and lacked a true cause or crusade. I grant that Talos is a bit of a divergence (a bit...he's still pretty cynical about the war) but most of the 10th appeared to me at least to just be doing what they do because they don't know what else they can do and not because they think it will bring about some glorious vengeance or whatever. Maybe I read it wrong, which is why, again, considering that we have the author here we should let him explain.

 

All that said, yes there are splinter warbands that have been mentioned in FW work (though I think the Skulltakers are the same ones as in the codex, that is, a chapter that was simply conquered by Zhufor and "inducted" into the World Eaters) and these are now canon, but just because a Khornate splinter of WB that call themselves Sanctified are now canon does not mean that for some reason "pure" Night Lords are now canon as well, it just makes no sense.

 

Finally and perhaps most importantly, a lot of this has to do with the fact that 40k is fiction. In real life, there are obviously no organizations that are as homogenous as it seems the legions/chapters/whatever are, but then this isn't real. Also keep in mind that marines are genetically coded to share many traits and then drilled since early childhood to be a certain way and raised in a certain very specific environment. Nature and nurture come together to make them some specific way. Even then though, it can be argued either way but the fact remains that in this fictional universe, factions are built around ideas.

 

There are "Roman marines" "Evil religious fanatic marines" "Cynical serial killer marines" "Crazy berzerker marines" etc. The factions are strongly based on archetypes and follow those archetypes throughout, leading to "unrealistically" homogeneous factions because it's fiction. In other words, if you don't want to play "cynical serial killer marines" you can just play some other faction with some other archetype. It's like creating a mage in an RPG and then saying that "well, it's unrealistic that I can't use an axe if I want and train to be really effective with it" instead of just creating a warrior, it's not reality, it's a fantasy setting and game system, so, to quote John Goodman "there are rules!"

 

Ok first of all sir what does the EC have to do with the topic? And why does having some "pure" NL make no sense? There is a pretty clear picture painted in Soul Hunter, Throne of Lies, Shadow Knight and even Lord of the Night that some of the NL warbands are still very loyal to their primarch and are still attempting to fight the long war. Granted they aren't well equipped and may not be able to do nearly as much as the Word Bearers for example with their forgeworlds etc. but the NL still have a goal in mind. Especially in Throne of Lies I got the impression all the NL were looking for something from the Callidus. Can't really tell you more if you haven't read it.

[Lexington]

Stuff I can't really use from CSM if I want to play a fluffy NL army [...]

 

Stuff I can't really use from C:BA if I want to play a fluffy NL army [...]

 

Final result: Neither codex reflects the NL well, but as C:BA reflects them better, I am going with that.

You're making a big error in logic here. Look at these lists of things, and think of what standards for "representing" Night Lords you're putting on each of them. Notice anything different between those two sets of assumptions?

[Dark Mechanicum]

Stuff I can't really use from CSM if I want to play a fluffy NL army [...]

 

Stuff I can't really use from C:BA if I want to play a fluffy NL army [...]

 

Final result: Neither codex reflects the NL well, but as C:BA reflects them better, I am going with that.

You're making a big error in logic here. Look at these lists of things, and think of what standards for "representing" Night Lords you're putting on each of them. Notice anything different between those two sets of assumptions?

 

Well said. When you choose to use a different codex for something represented by another codex it becomes all about choices. Using the BA codex for a Dorn geneseed army, Dark Eldar Haemonculi for Dark Mechanicum infantry, Night Lords using the Blood Angels list. You just pick what seems to fit your perspective for fluff and go with it.

[Lexington]

Well said. When you choose to use a different codex for something represented by another codex it becomes all about choices. Using the BA codex for a Dorn geneseed army, Dark Eldar Haemonculi for Dark Mechanicum infantry, Night Lords using the Blood Angels list. You just pick what seems to fit your perspective for fluff and go with it.

Well, my point here is really that the OP, and others, make claims about not wanting to use Noise Marines, Khorne Berzerkers and other supposedly "unfluffy" units in their mono-Legion armies, but then bend over backwards to make "counts as" justifications for all sorts of Blood Angels things. An uneven standard is applied here, wherein Codex: Blood Angels units can be whatever you damn well want them to be, but in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, a Berzerker is a Berzerker, and that's just not how the Night Lords roll, man!

 

Look, I get the impetus behind these "counts as" ideas to get around the lackluster Chaos book, and lord knows I've been tempted to do the same, but I just wish people would stop trying to put up this ramshackle facade of selfless background love in order to justify using a 5th Edition Codex. It's okay, guys! We understand! Everyone knows 5th Edition Codexes are more powerful, customizable and useful than their ancestors! Just please stop telling us that you're only doing this because the Chaos Codex, which has the same damn structure it's had since 1996, somehow doesn't "accurately" represent your chosen Legion. It's flat out wrong, and the resulting snitty tirades about people not accepting these half-baked justifications are embarrassing for everyone involved.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I can see your point, Lexington, and I agree with you almost wholeheartedly. I think, though, that all of the backwards bending over people do when they try an army like this is in preparation for (or reaction from) the inevitable screamfest they will endure from even pseudo fluff fascists.

[Dan The Deamon]

Lexington's rubber stamp of righteousness. Thank you for putting the above thoughts into words for me to rally behind.

[Lexington]

I think, though, that all of the backwards bending over people do when they try an army like this is in preparation for (or reaction from) the inevitable screamfest they will endure from even pseudo fluff fascists.

Well, you know, "counts as" is fine by me for individual armies and creative endeavors - it's the individuality that one puts into their army that makes it stand out from the rest. A group of Night Lords banding together to fight an uncompromising campaign against loyalist forces, pillaging post-Heresy equipment as they go, is a perfectly fun and interesting concept. Paired with suitably rag-tag conversions that manage to successfully combine the sleeker loyalist aesthetic with the sinister character of Kurze's brood, it could be an extremely rewarding gaming experience. Plus, there's always the satisfaction gained by thumbing one's nose at the unimaginative, joyless peons who simply cannot accept someone pursuing a concept that isn't supported by officially sanctioned background. Their angry tears are delicious like ice cream.

 

It's just that I don't see the need to explain these uses beyond wanting to do something different - the creative impulse, as far as I'm concerned, is its own justification. Moreover, I find it painfully obvious that these statements of background adherence are nothing but cover for trying, with good reason, to participate in the game at its highest level of play. It's not for nothing that "counts as" armies are, without exception, conversions of "Old Codex X" into "New Codex Y." The Blood Angels Codex in no way represents the Night Lords "better" than the Chaos Marine list; what it does do is bring the same concept (ferocious close combat monsters in power armor) to the table in a way that's much more fun. That's a fine reason, IMO. No need to grasp at straws.

 

Lexington's rubber stamp of righteousness. Thank you for putting the above thoughts into words for me to rally behind.

Yes, well, consider it an offer of thanks to you for creating the best Night Lords army in the known universe. :blink:

[Dark Mechanicum]

I totally agree, its the creative juices that make things flow in this hobby.

 

A good example of how I do that using two codexes for the same idea:

 

Dark Mechanicum Daemon Engine list: Codex: Chaos Space Marines

Dark Mechanicum Corrupted Infantry: Dark Eldar

 

The first one has the "crazy" Dreadnoughts, Defilers, Obliterators, "elite" combat servitors (in the cult troops).

The second one has the everyday corrupted Skitarri in the form of Wracks and Grotesques with stranger creations in a talos and cronus which i'm still figuring what they could be.

 

One for jumping on a bandwagon the other a well thought out "counts as" list. Every time I would go with the first list because it fits and is cooler.

 

I did the same for my Night Lord Warband when using the BA codex myself for a bit and I deliberatly didn't take certain things as they didn't fit my theme. I went back to the Chaos dex after I realized that I could do the same and not have to do counts as for the entire thing.

 

and yes Dan you do have a epic Night Lord army.

[snapplekid50]

As far as i'm concerned, people who try using the BA codex to represent as night lords are just wanting to use the advantages that it represents and whatever fluff or how you make your models is just an excuse.

 

the night lords have a codex...it's called codex: csm.... till we get a proper codex, make do with it.

 

suck it up and stop trying to make excuses...

 

another thing is people using space wolves codex for their csm....

 

you don't see people using "renegade" eldar, eldar models, with codex: dark eldar[the old one, not 5th], rules...

[Decoy]

you don't see people using "renegade" eldar, eldar models, with codex: dark eldar[the old one, not 5th], rules...

 

^----- Oddly accurate for a 15-post whelp.

 

To weigh in... Generally, I find that most counts-as people use New Codices. When's the last time you saw an all-termie army using Counts As: D.A.? Never. All-termies as Counts As: Space Wolves? Far too often. While both armies could acceptably perform in the Counts-As duties, people gravitate towards the army they perceive as most powerful.

 

To the OP, I ask the following: Space Wolves can do an All-JP army, or an All-Bike army, or an All-Termy army, or any permutation or combination therein. I would say fairly accurately that us Wolves could pull off Night Lords far more effectively than the BA, because we are by and large more customizable in potential army structure. Furthermore, Wolf Claws are far more effective than Lightning Claws, we can have smaller squads (for fluff purposes, perhaps, of an under-strength army), our vehicles are mostly on par with Marine rules, and we even have an ideal character (Logan) to emphasize the careful planning and execution of Night Lords adapting to a situation. Our SkyClaws have Berserk Charge, all the more representative of the brutality of the Night Lords. The question is, why pick the BA over the equally viable, if not moreso, SW?

 

The only reason not to use the arguably superior SW is... Well... Logan is mandatory, and the jumppackers will average 43 points without upgrades.

 

But since this is about fluffy representation... Price shouldn't matter, right? Or is there something else motivating you?

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

@Decoy: All of the above is absolutely correct, and if I were out questing to win every tournament with minimal thought on my part, I might have considered SW, or more likely, Orks--still an insanely powerful codex--and just called them gland warriors... actually, I may yet do that last one.

 

I could have done that, but I specifically picked BA because of the following, in order:

1. NL are a shadowy reflection of BA, and I enjoy exploring that in every game and model.

2. I am a glutton for punishment and enjoy the painting and modeling challenge of taking the most recent, beautiful models produced and corrupting them to look the way I want.

3. C:BA is not the most powerful marine codex. It's not even the second most powerful marine codex (those awards go to C:SW and C:SM respectively). Apparently, using any codex other than the one ostensibly for your army is grounds for the labeling of 'power gamer' and the absolute loss of moral high ground.

 

@Snapplekid: I have seen exactly that, from a guy who was obsessed with Autarchs, specifically Yriel and thought that the latest Eldar codex did not do him enough justice. He took a full retinue of Incubi, an Archon and based his army around it. His vehicles were ground down and painstakingly rounded and the final effect was quite striking. In Apocalypse, he used both codices to good effect. I've also seen a Mechanicus counts-as army using Codex: Tau, an updated Squats army using Codex: Orks (lots of war machine figs), a 40k Vampire army using Codex: Tyranids (long story) and even a Halo Covenant army using Codex: Eldar and HaloClix figs.

 

The point is this: one of the biggest reasons a lot of people (myself included) play this game over ones with more tactical metagames or more elegant rule sets is the level to which whole armies can be customized and personalized. My army looks and plays exactly the way I want it to, and I chuckle at every lightning bolt as I paint my looted Land Raider Crusader like it's driving out of the warp.

 

To those who have voiced support for this project: Thank you, and I hope to see you on the battlefield.

To my detractors: I hope I see you on the battlefield.

[Dark Mechanicum]

I've seen Codex: SW armies with a NL theme, and they are interesting to see.

 

Good Luck Mal and may you stand in Midnight Clad. Also another good word of advice. You shouldn't have to defend yourself and your project. Just keep it smart with options and dont go all "new" crazy and people will generally accept it.

[Legatus]

3. C:BA is not the most powerful marine codex. It's not even the second most powerful marine codex (those awards go to C:SW and C:SM respectively).

I might grant you C:SW, as the strength of that Codex is not as easy to compare to C:SM and C:BA. But C:SM and C:BA use mainly the same units, and the Blood Angels versions are in several cases cheaper and/or have better rules, so estimating that C:SM is the stronger of the two seem unfounded to me.

[Brother Delias]

On the note of stereotypes.... I dont think you CAN find a world eater that is not "KILL, MAIM, BURN!"

 

A: a great amount of them are lobotomised to where they physically cannot understand fear...

 

B: Kharne killed the rest...

 

nuff said

[Lord_Caerolion]

As far as i'm concerned, people who try using the BA codex to represent as night lords are just wanting to use the advantages that it represents and whatever fluff or how you make your models is just an excuse.

 

the night lords have a codex...it's called codex: csm.... till we get a proper codex, make do with it.

 

suck it up and stop trying to make excuses...

 

another thing is people using space wolves codex for their csm....

 

you don't see people using "renegade" eldar, eldar models, with codex: dark eldar[the old one, not 5th], rules...

 

Ah yes, another person who knows exactly what my motivations are, despite never having met me, or even seen what list I use. If I wanted to use a powerful Codex for my Night Lords with a flimsy fluff excuse, I'd use Plague Marines, Obliterators and a Daemon Prince. Taking Space Wolves, so that I can get access to the drastically overpowered sniper scouts, drop pods, night vision and actual customisation, is just evidence of my power-gaming ways. Not taking Thunderwolves, post-heresy gear, Rune Priests, Loganwing or Land Raider variants is entirely my not taking the weak links in the codex.

 

Oh wait... that last bit is the other way around. I'm limiting myself to the non-WAAC units, as well as what my Night Lords haven't had wide-spread access to (post-Heresy gear), instead just taking what my Night Lords should actually have.

 

Now, I'm not denying that some players do indeed do what you say, but making insulting blanket statements that all counts-as CSM players are just looking for an excuse to use the latest WAAC list is wrong. I, along with many others, play for fun. I, along with many others, find the CSM codex to not be up to scratch compared with what we can do with other, practically identical codexes.

 

On the note of stereotypes.... I dont think you CAN find a world eater that is not "KILL, MAIM, BURN!"

 

A: a great amount of them are lobotomised to where they physically cannot understand fear...

 

B: Kharne killed the rest...

 

nuff said

 

Well, there's always the Teeth of Khorne. I've always loved the irony that people remember that "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows", but think it means "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, as long as it's a chainaxe wound."

[Noctus Cornix]

ugh.... this 'debate' is giving me a headache just reading it...

 

Allow me to put this plain and simple.

 

COUNTS AS

The 'Counts as' rule allows you to apply rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

 

now before you blow up about the last sentence allow me to make another quote.

 

 

WYSIWYG

An important principle of our events is "What you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is that unless you are using the 'Counts As' rule, then the miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model.

 

What you misunderstand is that you think the 'Counts As' rule is what takes precedence over this discussion. And for that, you are wrong. The only rule that really matters in the entire subject of this 'debate' is WYSIWYG.

 

 

If I am to play a 'night lords' army and completely assembled the army and play them in the exact way that they are written upon the list and you can distinctly tell the difference between unit types then tough luck because that is exactly what I will play.

 

If I have a 'night lord' space marine holding a Plasma Pistol and a Power sword and distinctly state him as my sergeant with a plasma pistol and power sword then that is exactly what he is. A space marine sergeant in power armour with a plasma pistol and a power sword. It does not matter what colors he is painted or what name of the fiction-based army they are on a side note said to be. They are exactly what you see them as and that is exactly what you get. There is no 'Counts As' involved in the designation and use of these units. There is no 'Counts as' rule involved at all in the entire event of the game they are played in. What you see is what you get.

 

Somewhat similar to the 'separation of church and state' there is to be a separation of game and fluff. If an unpainted space marine with a bolter is bedecked in skulls and spikes and possibly even a chaos star, then you automatically assume it to be a chaos space marine. This is only natural as that is both what the fluff dictates as well as that is what the generic chaos space marine models are designed to look like. This, however is simply a hurried assumption that can be false. Until he is designated to be used in a chaos space marine army, then he is still just a space marine with a bolter. Nothing more. Nothing less. I reinforce this point with a taste of your own medicine. The Knights of Blood chapter who have been designated renegade yet continue on their crusade. Note, the statement on page 54 of the blood angels codex 'supposedly purging the Emperor's foes from the worlds of the Imperium'

 

They are a renegade army. Their allegiance is currently unknown, simply speculation, and they are in the blood angels codex. Who's to say that a player cannot choose to play a Knights of Blood army but they want to make them look like they're just starting to fall to chaos yet not fully accepted by the dark gods. Thus they now adorn themselves with spikes and chains and paint the icons of the chaos god upon their armour but they have not yet received any blessings from the chaos gods. Thus he chooses to play the blood angels codex. The spikes and chains have no game value. The symbols of chaos, if stated as simply war paint, although synonymous with the forces of chaos, still do nothing. It is simply a paint scheme decided by the player and it is the ICONS of chaos that involve special rules for the standard marines, not a little star of chaos painted on his elbow. They are armed with only the weapons allowed by the blood angels codex and the play specifically states that they will be used with the blood angels codex, then they may then proceed without any problems whatsoever. Alternatively, the person can easily enough, if his models fit the list correctly, play them with a chaos space marine codex. Do you have the right to say he can't? Exactly, you don't. :tu:

 

In short, if they are space marines with blue armor and bat wings on their heads but have every weapon and piece of equipment correct to play a Blood Angels list, then they have every right, reason, and ability to play this army. (if you must have your fluff :P ) For all you know they could really be a Blood Angels successor chapter with blue armor and bat wings instead of angels wings as their chapter iconography and their chapter name just so happens to be Lords of the Night. Curious as it may be, its still a loyalist chapter, right? ;)

 

If you don't like it, tough love buddy, go play someone else. He doesn't play for you. He plays for himself and he plays for fun.

 

WYSIWYG. No 'Counts as' is even necessary to bring up. Plain and simple guys.

 

IT'S LEGAL.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Heh, couldn't have said it better myself, Noctis!

[Legatus]

If I have a 'night lord' space marine holding a Plasma Pistol and a Power sword and distinctly state him as my sergeant with a plasma pistol and power sword then that is exactly what he is. A space marine sergeant in power armour with a plasma pistol and a power sword. It does not matter what colors he is painted or what name of the fiction-based army they are on a side note said to be. They are exactly what you see them as and that is exactly what you get. There is no 'Counts As' involved in the designation and use of these units. There is no 'Counts as' rule involved at all in the entire event of the game they are played in. What you see is what you get.

No, what you see is not what you get. You see Chaos Space Marines, but you get lyoalists. WYSIWYG is not only an issue with the models' equipment. Space Marine Veterans and Space Marine Tactical Squads have the same modeled equipment, but very different rules. An opponent should be able to tell during a game which enemy units are merely tactical squads and which units are Veterans with special ammo. Various Ork units can be very similar in their modeled equipment. Most of them are armed either with a choppa and slugga or a shoota, and 'eavy armour is not necessarily distinguishable from bits that are just tacked on for fun. But the Opponent should be able to tell which unit is a unit of Boys, 'Ard Boys or Kommandos, or whether the big guys with the double barreled guns are a squad of Nobz or a squad of Flash Gitz. All of that is relevant for play, just as much as whether a unit is equipped with a flamer or a meltagun is, so it falls under WYSIWYG. Any time an opponent might look at a model and might assume that it has different rules than it actually has, that is a WYSIWYG issue. The enemy does not see what he gets.

 

And when you use the Blood Angels Codex to play Chaos Marines, the enemy will not know what he gets. He only knows because you explain that you are using different rules. Because you are using "counts as".

 

A Chaos Marine with a boltgun is expected to have Ld 9 and two CCWs on top of his boltgun. A loyalist with a boltgun is expected to have Ld 8, but also 'ATSKNF', and does not have a second CCW. A squad of Chaos Marines is harder to make to fall back due to shooting, and harder to pin, but they can be routed and run down in combat, and if they are currently falling back and are below half strength, they are effectively out of the game. But Chaos Marines are twice as dangerous in close combat as a tactical squad is.

 

If there is a chance that the opponent looks at your squad of boltgun armed models and is expecting them to have 20 attacks in combat, which can easily happen even if you had informed him that you are using a different Codex, then he might decide to assault the squad of "Assault Marines" next to them instead, as he was expecting both units to have a similar number of attacks anyway. Had he been aware that your CSM squad has fewer attacks than usually, he might have chosen to assault them instead. There can be a number of such small details where the opponent is automatically calculating with what he is accustomed to from Chaos units, even if you had told him that you are using loyalist rules. He should be aware that you are using an entirely different rule set and that the units all have slightly different rules, but that is something that he will now have to keep in mind and have to apply every time he is trying to plan out his turn. If he has fought against Chaos before, he automatically assumes them to have certain stats and capabilities. Where he would normally see a CSM squad and automatically figures that they have a high number of attacks but can be run donw in combat and cannot regroup if below half strenght, he now has to remember that this Chaos squad in fact does not have the two CCWs, and that this CSM squad cannot be run down, and can still rally even if below half strength. That is not WYSIWYG. That is "Counts As".

[the jeske]

WYSIWYG is not only an issue with the models' equipment.

since the tournament ruling that certain armies have to be painted in a certain way to get certain rules [like it was with sm traits in 4th ed] is gone , WYSIWYG is exactly that . only the gear matters . one could make an army out of stones and if all were easy to indetify it would be legal.

But the Opponent should be able to tell which unit is a unit of Boys, 'Ard Boys or Kommandos, or whether the big guys with the double barreled guns are a squad of Nobz or a squad of Flash Gitz.

yes and if they somehow happy to have both flash gitz and nobz in the same list , looking the same way they get DQed .

Same with a guy who uses plastic tacs as sterngaurd and makes their gear look the same . doesnt matter how they are painted or modeled as long as the gear is proper [as in different from each other].

 

 

And when you use the Blood Angels Codex to play Chaos Marines, the enemy will not know what he gets. He only knows because you explain that you are using different rules. Because you are using "counts as".

how is that different from using converted oblits in chaos armies [because plastic termis or puting 3 dudes on a single base is cheaper ] ? I say it is a chaos army using the BA dex and it is no longer my problem , if my opponent tested against BA builds or knows the dex. The only moment when it is my problem is when he calls a judge and I cant anwser a question .

 

 

But Chaos Marines are twice as dangerous in close combat as a tactical squad is.

good thing BAs spam ras which are exactly the same [unless they get FC or FnP from priests] as our csm squads in hth.

 

 

If there is a chance that the opponent looks at your squad of boltgun armed models and is expecting them to have 20 attacks in combat, which can easily happen even if you had informed him that you are using a different Codex

you know I could model my csm armed with bolters [because all basic gear doesnt have to be represented on the model] and we would get the same resoults with codex chaos . As I said before if someone doesnt know how a codex other then his works , then it is no longer my foult he makes errors . as a gamer I have to tell what army am playing , have a writen list [if I show it before or after the game is a regional thing] and have the dex to anwser or clear any questions durning the game . If someone thinks that a BA tac has 20 attacks it is his problem , just like it is his problem to think csm have 1 attack because I happen to play an anti skimer build and bolter armed dudes look better with units armed aith an AC/plasma gun combo.

 

Had he been aware that your CSM squad has fewer attacks than usually, he might have chosen to assault them instead.

then he shoould have tested his army before playing or at least read the dex for other armies . And what happens if someone plays a nid [specialy if he uses 2ed or 3ed models] or other non meq army and there is no way you can easily identify some of the weapons from the other side of the table . Does your enviroment let people change shoting or charge targets, because he didnt take time before the game to research other dex and builds?

There can be a number of such small details where the opponent is automatically calculating with what he is accustomed to from Chaos units, even if you had told him that you are using loyalist rules.

If someone was told before the game he is playing against a codex using rules X and he goes on auto pilote and plays the game as if he was playing against a different codex. then he is just plain stupid [or drunk or on drugs] and it doesnt matter what his opponent does with the army , how the army looks like or what rules are used. I mean what kind of a normal gamer after being told he plays against an NL army using BA rules thinks he is playing something different then BA ?

Or how about all those people who played trait marines with RAS as troops or with ccw/pistol 2xspecial units , they switched to BA or SW [more or less what GW told them to do] ? if one goes your way that deciving looks should make an army illegal all those armies should be too. I mean those guys are blue or green , but are not using codex sm or DA And have both tacs and RAS in the same army . confusing as hell .

 

And how about stuff like chaos wings on sorc or lord ? confusing as hell too . hard to notice , because few will model them to make their HQ bigger [because of true LoS] . so some will chill at 12"+ thinking their are safe from a charge , but woe them the lord can use wings and ride in a rhino and charges . With your way of thinking 2/3 of chaos HQs are made illegal because we dont have a GW made chaos HQ sorc/lord with wings that everyone could easily identify as one.

 

If he has fought against Chaos before, he automatically assumes them to have certain stats and capabilities.

and if someone doesnt think while playing he will lose , unless he plays a build that doesnt realy care what the opponent does , how he moves and what rules he has. there were realy few armies in the history of w40k that played like that. and right now there are non that can be played like that in the 1500-1850pts .

[Lord_Caerolion]

As the Jeske says, Legatus, if I say I'm using the Space Wolves codex, then if the person is stupid enough to assume that I'm using the CSM stats, then that is entirely their fault. Can you point to me where it states in any rulebook that a CSM has to have spikes, to represent his Chaos-ness? Hell, people have been converting Renegades for years, using the CSM codex, yet using mostly Loyalist models. Under your rules that's illegal, as no spikes is WYSISWG for ATSKNF, or whatever justification you use.

 

It's a childish view to assume that people can't tell that a Terminator might be a Wolf Guard and not a Chosen when told their opponent is using the Space Wolf rules, regardless of how its painted. If you still choose to believe that they're Chosen, then that's your problem for being unable to listen, or use common sense to look beyond a paint scheme.