Night Lords with blood angels codex

[Legatus]

since the tournament ruling that certain armies have to be painted in a certain way to get certain rules [like it was with sm traits in 4th ed] is gone , WYSIWYG is exactly that . only the gear matters . one could make an army out of stones and if all were easy to indetify it would be legal.

Ok, so only equipment matters (I disagree, but let's take that for now).

 

 

yes and if they somehow happy to have both flash gitz and nobz in the same list , looking the same way they get DQed .

Same with a guy who uses plastic tacs as sterngaurd and makes their gear look the same . doesnt matter how they are painted or modeled as long as the gear is proper [as in different from each other].

...so, the wargear alone is NOT all that counts? It seems you are disagreeing with your position. Veterans and Tactical Marines have the same looking wargear. Nobz and Flas Gizs can have the same looking wargear. Boys and Kommandos can have the same wargear.

 

So which is it: these units do not have to be distinguishable as long as the opponent can identify their equipment. Or theser units do have to be distinguishable, or else the player will be disqualified?

 

 

And when you use the Blood Angels Codex to play Chaos Marines, the enemy will not know what he gets. He only knows because you explain that you are using different rules. Because you are using "counts as".

how is that different from using converted oblits in chaos armies [because plastic termis or puting 3 dudes on a single base is cheaper ] ?

It's not. You are using 'counts as'. My point was not that 'counts as' is evil or illegal of anything like that. My point was that of you have to tell your opponent what a certain model or unit is before the game, then that model is probably not 'WYSIWYG' and instead is 'counts as'. If you use two CSM on a big base with a plasma cannon to represent an Obliterator, tehn that is not WYSIWYG. That is 'counts as'.

 

 

But Chaos Marines are twice as dangerous in close combat as a tactical squad is.

good thing BAs spam ras which are exactly the same [unless they get FC or FnP from priests] as our csm squads in hth.

And if that RA is 24" away, but painted as CSMs, the opponent might assume that they can fire boltguns next turn. Or he might assume that the "Champion" has Ld 10, when he really only has Ld 9.

 

 

you know I could model my csm armed with bolters [because all basic gear doesnt have to be represented on the model] and we would get the same resoults with codex chaos . As I said before if someone doesnt know how a codex other then his works , then it is no longer my foult he makes errors

If the opponent does not know the models and the weapons then teh entire WYSIWYG concept is moot. That concept assumes that the opponent knows what a power weapon or a close combat weapon is, and what the difference between Veterans or Tactical squads is. If he does not know that in the first place, then correctly modelling those features would be futile.

The WYSIWYG concept assumes that the opponent is familiar with the units and equipment of the opposing army, and that he will recognise what units and what equipment the enemy army consists of, so that he can make informed decisions.

 

If the opponent looks at a unit and assumes that it has certain rules, but the unit does not havo those rules, then that is not WYSIWYG. That might be the unit's equipment, but it also goes for the type of unit it is, e.g. Veterans or Tacticals, Kommandos or 'Ard Boiys, Nobz or Flash Gitz.

 

That the current rulebook does not properly describe the WYSIWYG concept is a shame. IIRC the 4th Edition rulebook did not describe it at all, since this issue was adressed in the 3rd and 4th Edition Codices. Of course, that you use the actual correct models to represent the different units can be seen as a basic and unwritten convention. You could use stones or legos or whatever, and explain that they are guardsmen. But that would be proxying.

 

 

And what happens if someone plays a nid [specialy if he uses 2ed or 3ed models] or other non meq army and there is no way you can easily identify some of the weapons from the other side of the table

There are several rules, such as grenade types or veteran skills, that will not be represented on a model. The opponent should know that the enemy unit he is looking at could potentially have these kind of upgrades, but in these cases he will have to ask his opponent which options the unit has exactly. Part of WYSIWYG is that the player does not have to constantly ask his opponent what a certain of his units has. But sometimes this just cannot be avoided.

 

 

If someone was told before the game he is playing against a codex using rules X and he goes on auto pilote and plays the game as if he was playing against a different codex. then he is just plain stupid [or drunk or on drugs] and it doesnt matter what his opponent does with the army , how the army looks like or what rules are used. I mean what kind of a normal gamer after being told he plays against an NL army using BA rules thinks he is playing something different then BA ?

A human player. You are being ridiculous. Even is the opponent is told that the Iron Warriors he sees before him are actually Space Wolves, he might still at some turn subconciously assume that a unit he is about to attack has the rules that unit would have in teh Chaos Codex. That is the easiest mistake one can make, like forgetting to use a special rule or forgetting to move a unit before proceeding to the shooting phase. These things happen, and usually it's teh player's own fault. But in the case of the Iron Warriors not really having the rules he was expecting, the reason for this mistake was that the opponent used this unit with different rules than usual. He still could have known better, because he had been told at the start of the game. But what confused him was that this unit normally does have different rules, and the opponent is using other rules than that.

 

 

Or how about all those people who played trait marines with RAS as troops or with ccw/pistol 2xspecial units , they switched to BA or SW [more or less what GW told them to do] ? if one goes your way that deciving looks should make an army illegal all those armies should be too. I mean those guys are blue or green , but are not using codex sm or DA And have both tacs and RAS in the same army . confusing as hell .

A DIY Chapter does not have designated rules. The opponent does not immediately expect them to be played like Codex Marines or Blood Angels or Black Templars. If the opponent sees a unit of Night Lords, he will assume they use the Codex Chaos. If the opponent sees a unit of Black Templars, he will assume they use the Codex Black Templars. But if he sees a unit of green painted marines with yellow shoulder pads with a blue skull as the Chapter symbol, he should not really expect any specific Codex.

 

 

---

 

Lord_Caerolion:

 

As the Jeske says, Legatus, if I say I'm using the Space Wolves codex, then if the person is stupid enough to assume that I'm using the CSM stats, then that is entirely their fault.

Yes, of course it is "their fault". You did inform him. But he made that mistake still because your army was not WYSIWYG and because you used 'counts as'. You were not tricking him or anything. But your army was not WYSIWYG and he got confused. That is what WYSIWYG is supposed to prevent. And in this case it did not work out.

 

 

Hell, people have been converting Renegades for years, using the CSM codex, yet using mostly Loyalist models. Under your rules that's illegal, as no spikes is WYSISWG for ATSKNF, or whatever justification you use.

As I said earlier, with an unknown Chapter the opponent has no expectations as to what Codex they might be using. He just sees power armour and boltguns, and there are several possible variations of those. However, if he sees Ultramarines, Blood Angels or Iron Warriors, he will immediately expect them to use one particular Codex.

 

 

If you still choose to believe that they're Chosen, then that's your problem for being unable to listen, or use common sense to look beyond a paint scheme.

The opponent does not "chose" to believe anything. He got momentarily confused because your units are not using the rules intended and expected for them. It is his mistake, as you did tell him. But it is still a mistake made because your unit was not using the regular rules.

[Brother Hadafix]

Legatus, given all the arguments you have used to try and persuade people that the Loyalist marines could all be done with the C:UM, I am surprised that your having problems with the concept of NL using the BA, as there are rules that are similar to how NL were in the 3.5 CSM codex. Now he is no longer limiting himself to a crazy dreadnought that may kill his own men, and other silly limitations that you would argue that the Legions lists in the 3.5 stuck gamers with.

So why are you claiming that players should be stuck with rules from any codex, or that any SM codex is less appropriate than any other for building any type of SM army.

 

If a HB as be a sonic weapon on a dread, or a power fist a servo arm, then I cant see any way to object to BA counting as NL.

[Legatus]

So why are you claiming that players should be stuck with rules from any codex, or that any SM codex is less appropriate than any other for building any type of SM army.

As a matter of principal, probably? That an army should use the Codex it is being given?

 

 

given all the arguments you have used to try and persuade people that the Loyalist marines could all be done with the C:UM

What does that have to do with anything? I have also argued that you can play the traitor Legions with the Codex Chaos Space Marines, as you are now able to use a lot of units and choices that had previously been only available to certain Legions. That does not really relate in any way to the position that a known army sould be used with the Codex that GW has officially produced for them.

[Brother Hadafix]

That does not really relate in any way to the position that a known army should be used with the Codex that GW has officially produced for them.

But GW has not released any official rules for playing Night Lords, not since the C:CSM 3.5 has there been any book pertaining any rules for Night Lords. So there is no 'official' GW codex for them, so any stand in could do.

 

If it is a matter of principal, then you should be saying that they should use the rules from the C:CSM 3.5 codex to use Night Lords, as that is the only codex given where you will find rules for them.

 

There is no codex for Night Lords, so the C:BA is as good as any.

[Legatus]

But GW has not released any official rules for playing Night Lords

Yes they have. :mellow:

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I should probably include in here, now drunk with power, that I have painted up an IW techmarine to go with my IW drop pod sternguard in apocalypse. I should probably posit that if I were going to do an IW codex, it would almost certainly be using C:SM. Ironclad dreads, thunderfire cannons, masters of the forge and Lysander, the ultimate warsmith, giving everyone stubborn. Sounds pretty IW to me.

 

Also, as I write this, I have decided to unironically incorporate all of the legions that C:CSM left behind into my army in some way. I will probably throw in a word bearer chaplain leading some possessed death company as well as Alpha Legion scouts... okay, I don't know how I'm going to incorporate the AL, but it probably won't be with scouts.

 

Let it be known that today is the day that Codex: Blood Angels became Codex: the Forgotten Legions

[Brother Delias]

ALright... this is getting ridiculous...

 

WYSIWYG: This is a simplification of most rules within the game. Regardless or roll tables, regardless of ranges or stats, this is possibly the most important rule IMO. This is what prevents a person from throwing that NOB squad in and deciding that it is a Flash Git, or a tac squad as a sternguard. That is a rule for squads WITHIN the army you are using. if you are doing something else, it is known as counts as.

 

Counts As: This is a ruling for friendly games, and should NOT be used in anything besides. This is a term used for when wanting to try out a unit that you do NOT yet own, and want to see how it would work with your playstyle, army makeup, etc. Generally speaking, no tournament I have EVER played allows 'Counts as'.

 

inter codex gaming: I have seen this before, at no point is it ever legal to do so, simple as that. you have people with years of experience with 40K, such as myself, as well as people that are just starting the game. There are core rules for each army FOR A REASON. If you dont like what you are stuck with, then move on to something else. old timers will be pissed off at you, and you will confuse the hell out of new gamers, and may end up making it so they no longer WANT to play the game. The plain fact of the matter is, while BA may be the better list to play for NL, it is simply not an NL codex. You can still legally build a functional legion army out of the C:CSM, which for all the problems in it, still has enough in it to provide a unique army for any chaos player, legion or otherwise. If you dont like using your NL with the current codex, then simply stop playing NL.

 

Arguing the fundamentals of rules just simply to try and win an arbitrary point is childish, and altogether wrong. It is up to the gamer to decide how he himself wants to play, but he MUST follow the constraints he is left with, otherwise, the core rules of such a game are moot. It is up to the older gamers to bring in the newer players, show them that their chosen armies CAN be fun, using the rules they are given. Saying that the rules from another codex are better to use, while may very well be true, does not follow this premise.

 

Use the rules given, stop being a powergamer, and have some fun, isnt this what playing the game is all about???

 

And for the love of all that is chaos... someone PLEASE kill this topic.

[the jeske]

Generally speaking, no tournament I have EVER played allows 'Counts as'.

and considering DPs and before the new kit was no longer made and realy hard to buy how did all the chaos players get their two ? or how do nids play without doing a counts as of a tervigon [because normal legal models dont exist at all] or how about doom or swarm lords ? The tournaments I seen in europe [excluding UK and scandinavia , one which I dont realy know and other actualy having a lot od different rulings then main land europe] Orgs ask about what codex your using . And yes it does mean that if your asked what you play and anwser BA everyone will think your using the BA dex , just how it was in 4th ed . the difference is that back then you couldnt say your yellow marines with ultra grit are imperial fists [because traits for IF were different in the sm dex] and now it is free game for anyone to do what ever they want as long as the gear is the same on same armed units . Also if counts as was illegal all those traitor guard or ad mech armies would be illegal .

 

The plain fact of the matter is, while BA may be the better list to play for NL, it is simply not an NL codex.

0_o neither is the gav dex , so when one has an option to play a raptor or bike hvy NL list he can go with A codex csm and get a list that does not work B not go with raptors and bikes and play what everyone else is playing in chaos [but where is the NL part then?] C use codex sm or codex BA and get both the units you want to use and a list that works and neither a full bike force or a jump list is the most optimal build out of BA or SM dex , so one cant even say the NL player is doing this to power game .

 

 

 

 

still has enough in it to provide a unique army for any chaos player,

yep with 2 xDPs 3 troops and 4-6 oblits . we know how unique that is.

 

 

But GW has not released any official rules for playing Night Lords

Yes they have.

I know you dont mean the IA or the 3.5 dex. So its the Gav dex ? well even people in the GW DT said that the chaos dex does not represent chaos legions well [which considering how defensive they are about their own work does say a lot] . the dex does not have special rules for NL and as no article or fluff in the dex tells us how the NL armies look like we end up with either all legions being the same [which contradicts 20+ years of fluff in its various incarnations] or legions dont have rules . I opt for the second options , because if option one was true my alfa legion doesnt realy exist anymore or they do exist like Iron Hands do in the sm book.

 

 

as you are now able to use a lot of units and choices that had previously been only available to certain Legions.

ok we can take two views here . either we see legions as a mechanic part of the game with fluff being unimportant .And then legions lost lists because there are fewer builds possible to do nowadays then we could have done with the 3.5 . unless one counts 2xDP, 3 troops 4-6 oblits build as 9 builds because every legion can take it right now . Or we take the fluff view which means that suddenly the option to take 9 oblits and 2 DPs or cult units in undivided armies are dead options . How does a WB army get more options out of zerkers or pms when the main thing about WB is that they dont do cult ? or how does the fact that I can take 2 DPS and 9 oblits help me AL when A they arent know for their DPs[in fact their fluff tells us they have problems with summoning stuff because of their stance on "chaos religion" and place of operation) or warp virus techmarines ? other armies also lost a lot . Lets take NL for example . never the top army out there , but if someone wanted bikes[overcosted in 3.5 if not used for demon bombs] or raptors [again big cost in 3.5] he could take 4 units. 4 units of scoring dudes for a fluff army . now everyone can take 3 units of bikes or raptors. So NL lost one option and every one gain 2 FA choices that are non scoring in no way better then a unit of csm , not to mention cult marines . So a double lose for chaos options again.

How about demons in chaos armies ? WB,WE,EC and BL had demon bomb builds . only BL could mix the demons . Right now everyone can take demons and they are even scoring .... there is only one problem ... they suck as an option in the chaos dex . 4 builds dead again . [and thats not counting those crazy people who used demons in PM or 1ksons or in AL cultists builds] .

Aside for being able to take 9 oblits instead of 3 [playing BL] and getting 2DPs instead of one [which isnt a big win to be honest considering we lost the Lt] we legion players gained absolutly nothing in the Gav dex.

But hey If someone played BL khorn , then Gav dex was a bonus . List only got even stronger for a few months.

[Brother Aiwass]

@Brother Delias

 

Imho, your models=your choice. A marine is a marine is a marine... If I want to play WE (red angry marines) with C:BA (red angry marines) is my money. Stop saying it's illegal please, because is not true. Or have you any thing to argue to some ultramarine with some sort of Vulkan? Or maybe some Crimson fists leaded by Lysander?

 

There are no rule AFAIK that makes illegal count as. Night Lord assault squad: Jump pack? Check. Power armor? Check. 2 CCW? Check. 2 spcial weapons? Check. WYSIWYG. Period.

 

And please, stop saying that NL don't have more raptors than other legion. They have an entire Grand Company of raptors, and 3.5 dex allowed to field more than 0-1.

 

That said, I play my World Eaters with C:CSM.

 

Cheers.

[Legatus]

the dex does not have special rules for NL and as no article or fluff in the dex tells us how the NL armies look like we end up with either all legions being the same [which contradicts 20+ years of fluff in its various incarnations] or legions dont have rules .

It is very simple:

 

The Codex Chaos Space Marines is intended for Chaos Space Marine armies.

 

The Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines.

 

==> The Night Lords are played with Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

They even have a few pictures and Illustrations in the current Codex, so there is really no way to claim that they are not supposed to be played with this Codex.

 

 

How does a WB army get more options out of zerkers or pms when the main thing about WB is that they dont do cult ?

Obviously pure Word Bearers would not use cult units. I don't understand your question.

 

 

or how does the fact that I can take 2 DPS and 9 oblits help me AL when A they arent know for their DPs[in fact their fluff tells us they have problems with summoning stuff because of their stance on "chaos religion" and place of operation) or warp virus techmarines ?

Obviously a pure Alpha Legion army would not use 2 DPS and 9 Oblits. Again, I am not understanding your question.

 

 

other armies also lost a lot .

The issue is not whether the Chaos forces have gained or lost units with the current Codex. The issue is which Codex is the official army list for which of the background forces. Chaos Space Marines are played with the Codex Chaos Space Marines. Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines. Iron Warriors are Chaos Space Marines. They are both played with the Codex Chaos Space Marines.

The current Codex does include a few otpions that are particularly suited for certain Legions and which had not previously been available to a "generic" Chaos force but only to the specialist Legions. The current Codex allows you to use more than 1 single unit of Raptors, which is suitable for Night Lord forces. The codex allows you to use more than 1 single unit of Obliterators and has Vindicators, both of which were previously only available to Iron Warriors. Thus you can still use Iron Warriors themed forces by taking such options.

 

 

Lets take NL for example . never the top army out there , but if someone wanted bikes[overcosted in 3.5 if not used for demon bombs] or raptors [again big cost in 3.5] he could take 4 units. 4 units of scoring dudes for a fluff army . now everyone can take 3 units of bikes or raptors. So NL lost one option and every one gain 2 FA choices that are non scoring in no way better then a unit of csm , not to mention cult marines . So a double lose for chaos options again.

That is entirely not the point of the current discussion. As is most of your post. I am sorry if you cannot enjoy playing a Legion with the current Codex. I still enjoy playing pure Night Lords very much. And I play them with their designated Codex, which is the Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

 

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Edit:

 

Maximvs:

A marine is a marine is a marine...

You could not be more wrong. There are no less than six types of a basic Marine with boltgun, and each of them has different rules, taken from a different Codex.

[Brother Aiwass]

Oh yes, I can go more wrong, because I'm not. The fact that you don't agree with me don't prove that I'm wrong, Legatus. You're building a plastic soldier with a type of armor what happen is called power armor. You can paint it and model it in the way you like. Moreover, you can make your oun chapter. Let's say, Lords of the Night, unknown origin, allegedly with some sort of link to the Blood Angels. And you also can choose their chapter badge, let's say a skull with bat wings. Then you can play NL using BA and is not wrong, because GW just is worried about sales, they don't go to ban you for using their books and their minis in the way you enjoy the most.

 

If you enjoy to play NL with CSM then good for you! I also enjoy my CSM WE, but you can't deny other ways to enjoy the hobby to other people, specially if they aren't going to play against you. If he enjoy it, and their local store have nothing to say about, let them enjoy their way. Also, I've seen NL using the SW dex...

 

And yes, a marine is a marine.

[Legatus]

You're building a plastic soldier with a type of armor what happen is called power armor. You can paint it and model it in the way you like.

Whether the opponent is seeing a Blood Angels Marine with boltgun, a Dark Angels Marine with boltgun, a Black Templar, Ultramarine, Iron Warrior or Space Wolf with boltgun, then in each case he will assume that the model has certain rules. An Ultramarine might voluntarily fall back after you chose to fire at his unit. Space Wolves will not do that. Space Wolves have 3 attacks when you assault them, where the Ultramarine only has 1 Attack. The Black Templar might be able to re-roll his attacks against you, and he might come running towards you after being shot.

 

In these cases, where players associate specific rules with Marines from a known Chapter, you cannot simply switch Codices, because then the model has different rules than one would usually expect. It is now not WYSIWYG anymore. A Marine model with power armour and boltgun is not like any other Marine model with power armour and boltgun. There may not even be an alternate reality where you would be right with that. It is wrong on every conceivable plane of existence.

 

If you create a DIY Chapter, then opponents do not have a preconceived association with any of the given Codex rules. However, if your DIY Chapter happens to look exactly like Night Lords... then you are just not very good at the whole DIY thing...

[Lexington]

If anyone ever needs solid proof of the damage that 5th Edition's done, not only to the game, but to the player base, I will refer them to the past page or so of this thread. I will show it to them, and their eyes will glaze over with understanding. Bile seeping from their pores, froth bubbling from pitted and torn lips, a truth more potent than any in human history will wash over them, eliminating mortal biology and leaving not but a thin wisp of greasy ether, infused with information that cannot be understood, only experienced in totality. They will touch the face of God, and know that He hates them; that He hates all of us, for no loving deity could ever set humanity down the path that would lead to this moment, an utter and all-consuming singularity of human waste and sadness. They will yearn for the merciful caress of oblivion that can never come, their consciousness unraveling into madness, echoing with a cry of those who envy the damned.

 

Seriously, people, what in the hell.

[Brother Aiwass]

@Legatus,

 

Yeah, whatever. Have you heard about Vulkan of the Salamanders? Because I've seen that guy leading Ultras alot more than leading IF :tu:

 

A marine with power armor is like every other marine. How can you, if may ask, distingish between some unpainted sternguard and some unpainted tactical marine? Anyway, if a player associates blue=boring, red=fast is his/her fault.

 

Besides that I lol'd so much at your authority to rule about how wrong I can be not in that, but in every reality just because our opinions does not match, Legatus. Seriusly, check it out.

 

However, if I suck at DIY but can play BA-NL I'm happy (and I have no intention of play NL of any kind btw).

 

But I disagree again, if the model have the wargear is WYSIWYG.

 

Now, please, be gentle and answer this:

 

Do you want to allow Lysander leading ultras? If not, why?

 

But this time try avoid pass your opinion as if it were a fact, which is not.

 

Edit: btw, what Lexington say.

[Legatus]

Besides that I lol'd so much at your authority to rule about how wrong I can be not in that, but in every reality just because our opinions does not match

The fact that a Space Wolf with power armour and boltgun and an Ultramarine with power armour and boltgun have different rules is not a matter of opinion. Neither is that opponents will assume that the model has the appropriate rules when he sees it. If he sees a Space Wolf with power armouor and boltgun, he will assume that the model has an additional CCW and 'Counter-attack' . If he sees an Ultramarine with power armour and boltgun (and non-white shoulder trims), he will assume that the model has only 1 attack but 'Combat Tactics'. If he sees a squad of Iron Warriors with power armour and boltguns, he will assume that he can run them down after defeating them in HtH. That is not merely my oponion.

 

 

Yeah, whatever. Have you heard about Vulkan of the Salamanders? Because I've seen that guy leading Ultras alot more than leading IF msn-wink.gif

Do you want to allow Lysander leading ultras? If not, why?

Special Characters are lame. Yes, that is my opinion. I have seen two being used in the local GW in the past couple of years. As far as game mechanic is concerned, there are no "Salamanders army list" or "Imperial Fists army list" in the Codex Space Marines. There are several special characters, which can all explicitely be taken in any army you create with the Codex Space Marines. One of the special Characters is named "Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists" in the fluff, but the Codex explicitely tells you that you can use his rules in any other army and just rename him. I am not in favour of this heavy use of special characters, but that is my own preference. The Codex explains that every special character can be taken as a blank slate and be used for every army and be given a different name and background.

 

Also, you do not need Vulkan to play Salamanders. Vulkan is a special character. Salamanders are played with the regular Codex Space Marines army list, as is evident by the depictions of Salamanders or White Scars armies that do not include the respective special character. A Salamanders army is no different than an Ultramarines army. The army of teh special personality "Vulkan", as his own personal force, will have certain extra rules, however.

[Notanoob]

Also, you do not need Vulkan to play Salamanders. Vulkan is a special character. Salamanders are played with the regular Codex Space Marines army list, as is evident by the depictions of Salamanders or White Scars armies that do not include the respective special character. A Salamanders army is no different than an Ultramarines army. The army of teh special personality "Vulkan", as his own personal force, will have certain extra rules, however.

It's funny you bring that up, Salamanders had their own dex where they were I3 and had a handful of special rules and such just like BT, in 4th ed. they got traits, but now they've totally lost their specialness and have no way to distinguish themselves from Ultra marines that expect a lot of heavy armor and cover. Some of them aren't happy that they have to use a special character to get rules that represent their uniqueness, and that everybody associates them with cheesy bandwagon-hopping WAAC players. Similarly, some NL players hate that they lost their own special rules, but they don't even get a special character to compensate, due to being a victim of the temporary paradigm shift.

 

Anyways, I'm fine with count as, and I find it hard to believe that people can't remember that they are facing count as that have this special rule instead of that one for one game. I let my local Eldar player use a his friends Ultra's to represent Blood Angles, and had no problem remembering that the Vanguard vets. in reserve could assault out of DS, or that this Pred actually was fast and had an assault cannon. It reminds me of people complaining about Tyranid's mutable stats or CSM 3.5's "complexity". Sure you make assumptions, but when I play a someone I always ask what dex they're using and what wargear they may be proxying or whatever. If people like the Ld debuffs from the Bangles and the loads of "Raptors", who cares, I know what they do since I already asked. Hell, at one point we had a new guy proxy Eldar as a SW, then another player sold him his Dark Angles for cheap and we just let him count as Space Wolves.

 

Anyways, I say screw WYSIWYG. It makes people act too strict compared to the 'beer and pretzels' attitude that is espoused. Plus it can get expensive.

[Brother Delias]

@ notanoob: and I can respect that, it is in friendly games, and in friendly games, counts as, can apply more IMO then WYSIWYG. However, if you are going into major gaming, counts as only goes so far... Mind you I can undeerstand certain models, ones that DO NOT have models that can be accossiated with them. However, if you have a unit that can be represented by models and rules for that army, then there is no deseernable reason why you should not be able to use to use those models.

 

@ Lexington... that was hilarious

 

@ Legatus: Thank you...

 

@ Jeske: for one... I'm not the one that says it is illegal, GW is. For two... This is in regards to using a diffrent codex for playing an army that HAS a codex... WYSIWYG applies when someone wants to forgo using established rules for an army. Simply put, you have the capability to create a codex NL list, that does NOT follow the powergaming standard, that is able to win. Finally, on to the last thing I wanted to point out... If you have to use the double lash list to do anything... then you simply are a powergamer, and not worth anyone's time... furthermore, the double lash list is horribly ineffective if you know what you are doing... I watched as a player using a double lash list cried as I peiced him apart using tau. I use ONE DP, if at all, make little use of oblits, and have a list that can destroy much of anything I come across, why, I use something I like to call tactics...

 

As I have always said and live by, any list can take on any other list, and is able to win, you as the player simply need to figure out how to make it work. So far the ONLY list I have had alot of issues with is a pure khornate demon army. But then at the time I was using a Ork tide army, small shame on me for not learning to beat that army.

[the jeske]

A Salamanders army is no different than an Ultramarines army.

in the fluff it aint , different arment , different company and command structure. In the rules they had their own dex with distinct gear set ups and even different stats and in the 4th ed sm dex they had a different traits listed as the ultramarines . Yes in the new dex like all other non BA/SW/BT/DA they have the whole "spiritual lieg" and "wanting to be as good as ultramarines" thing going on , still if to make salamanders armies different a special wouldnt be needed then why was vulkan added. I mean in the testing all charas were ultramarines ?

Ah yes because others from the DT though that maybe puting the focus only on ultras and not giving anything to other chapters/legions would end up like it did with codex chaos sm , so in the late desing proces khan, vulkan etc were added .

 

If he sees a Space Wolf with power armouor and boltgun, he will assume that the model has an additional CCW and 'Counter-attack' .

after someone tells him that he is using codex sm ? I realy dont get the though proces. I play a guy he says he plays marines , army is clearly a DA army or green marines at least , how is it even possible to come to the conclusion that he is playing DA and not codex sm . I mean even If he does not say he plays loyalists , the army set ups are different [no MM attack bikes , no rifle man ,different speeders and bikes with scout etc].

It is the same with chaos . nothing looks like an oblit , nothing looks like an DP , but army is still spiky then it is probably not a chaos dex . And then if am realy realy unsure I can always ask before the game starts , but after set up , what dex he uses.

 

I mean if the "looks" of armies were so important then a lot of pre heresy armies would be illegal , because more offten then not they use codex different then chaos csm , but armies are still called death guard , WE etc.

 

Whether the opponent is seeing a Blood Angels Marine with boltgun, a Dark Angels Marine with boltgun, a Black Templar, Ultramarine, Iron Warrior or Space Wolf with boltgun, then in each case he will assume that the model has certain rules.

why would he assume that ? the ruling that paiting+ certain rules are combined is gone , no longer in the rules or tournament pack since 5th ed started. I mean he could as well look at a loyalist rhino and assume it has 10 dudes inside and no way is there an hq there too . or move and assume that those BA rhinos/tanks are not fast. Am having problems with imagining what kind of an enviroment creates people who assume stuff like that . Here I am with my army , which I just told is using the BA rules , with the BA codex taken out [in case someone has questions] , my rhinos are fast etc there is no oblits or oblits look alikes in sight , but my opponent still thinks they are NL , because they are painted blue ? What happens if you play against a dude with an unpainted army , how do you check if the razorback build is a BA or SM one , if the only way to check it is to see how it is painted ?

 

 

 

If anyone ever needs solid proof of the damage that 5th Edition's done,

this is nothing . you should have seen what people wrote [less moding back then] durning the transfer from 2ed to 3ed.

 

 

. Veterans and Tactical Marines have the same looking wargear. Nobz and Flas Gizs can have the same looking wargear.

nope . vets have metal models that look different . nobz and flash gitz look different , size if model is different . Now if they looked identical then it would be a DQ[right now] , if GW would have made the models look the same then still the unit set up and the look of gear would be different . A unit of tacs cant have 10 combis , neither can it be given a hvy weapona at 5 man . So no they dont have the same gear.

 

 

Boys and Kommandos can have the same wargear.

how ? boyz dont have snik or outlfank rules . how could anyone who knows how ork dex works think that models coming from the side or the back are boyz ? And if someone doesnt know the ork dex at all ,the he will not know that something like a difference between flash/nobz or boyz/komands exists.

 

 

And if that RA is 24" away, but painted as CSMs, the opponent might assume that they can fire boltguns next turn. Or he might assume that the "Champion" has Ld 10, when he really only has Ld 9.

 

and with rhinos moving 18" per turn in the BA dex he thinks good. What do Ld test have to do with knowing if a unit is RAS or not . Dudes didnt use bolt guns . dudes got FC and/or FnP , but his basic weapons still wound on +4 so those cant be PMs[specialy as PMs cant have FC] . not to mention that prior the game the NL guy rolls for every unit to check if they get red thirst . I mean that alone should tell my opponent what list am using . he doesnt even have to see mefiston or drop pods etc So yeah If after that my opponent still thinks am playing NL with chaos dex , then I think it doesnt matter what am playing . he has some deeper problems then that.

 

Obviously pure Word Bearers would not use cult units. I don't understand your question

you claimed that a NL list is viable and chaos players with the Gav dex gained options that were before only limited to certain legions . When in fact we not only lost many builds , including a lot of the legion lists , but aside for BL , which never had problems with mixing up cult/oblits etc , we didnt get more options . In fact considering the number of builds lost and the viabilty of options in the chaos dex we have fewer options then we had before , if we play something else then BL . There for playing a NL list that makes both a fluffy [your not going to tell me that a raptor cult army is not fluffy for NL , they had a whole grand company of those pre heresy] and working list with the BA dex is better , then playing a NL list with codex chaos that A is harder to make fluffy and when it is close to fluff it sucks hard .

[Lord_Caerolion]

As I have always said and live by, any list can take on any other list, and is able to win, you as the player simply need to figure out how to make it work. So far the ONLY list I have had alot of issues with is a pure khornate demon army. But then at the time I was using a Ork tide army, small shame on me for not learning to beat that army.

 

Once again, that's all well and good if the only thing I cared about was winning. That isn't the problem though, as we keep on explaining, yet for some reason people never seem to hear. For me, the Space Wolves codex 'feels' more Night Lord-y than the CSM codex does. Am I saying that my way is the be-all and end-all explanation for how to play Night Lords? No. I'm saying that, for me, a Space Wolves list feels much, much more like what a Night Lords list should be, to me.

 

As I said above, if I wanted to create a power-gaming list explained by tenuous fluff justifications, I'd use Plague Marines, Obliterators, and a Slaaneshi daemon prince.

 

I don't use the Wolves because they're more powerful. They're not. I could take Thunderwolves (bat-riders!), backed up by some Loganwing and a Rune-priest or two, but I don't. I've never yet heard one person complain that sniper-scouts or Night Vision are drastically overpowered, and are what make the Wolves so strong.

Wow, my Night Lords now have some Drop-pods, sniper scouts, and Night Vision. Nothing can beat that army, compared to what I can make with Chaos Marines, or if I used the whole Wolf list.[/sarcasm]

 

 

People, this is a game. It is meant to be enjoyed amongst friends, not be treated like a life-or-death situation. I play for fun, not purely to win. If I do, then great, but I'd much rather have a fun match with people, using a list that gets the feel of the army I play, than to beat my opponent into some optimised, WAAC CSM list that just happens to be painted in Night Lords colours. Seriously, I'm done in this conversation. I'm tired of being judged by people who have never met me, and likely never will, accusing me of simply power-gaming. I'm tired of being accused of cheating because I like having fun with friends, over math-hammering out a list, then throwing in a Raptor squad painted dark blue to justify it being Night Lords alongside the WAAC units. Don't like it, cry at the next tournament you're at.

[the jeske]

It is meant to be enjoyed amongst friends, not be treated like a life-or-death situation.

then moment you pay for something 1 cent , it stops not being a "life-or-death situation".

[Brother Delias]

@ Lord_Caerolion: I have made my point clear on the intercodex mixing, THAT point, was to contend the whole basis that the only way to win using C:CSM is to take a double lash list... That is ridiculous on all margines... But that would be my fault for not specifying. On the Topic of intercodicing, while watered down, all legionnaires have a codex that can be used to create an army that can work, without being reduced to utilising powergaming to have fun. While there may be practical justifications for experienced players to do so, morally, there is NO justification to do so. Furthermore, as I have stated, you have new players all the time coming into the game, taking a diffrent codex just to make things easier on you does the gaming community no good. For the newer players, it seves to simply confuse them, as this game, thanks to its creators is already confusing enough. For us experienced players to have to constantly relearn the rules in our own right, that statement speaks for itself. You all are thinking of how this all applies to yourself... You need to stop doing so, and start thinking of how this applies to those you play against. Yes I can ask about rules and lists to armies I am unfamiliar with, but like legatus has stated. if a player looks at a marine, he is going to think marine, regardless of color scheme. If it has spikes, he is going to think CSM... simple as that, until you say otherwise, that is simple truth, regardless of what you may prefer to think.

 

SO... WITH that said, NLs look like NLs, not BAs... until you actually say something, a player will think CSM, not BA. It is not right to play an army using diffrent rules... to make a finer point on this...

 

Chess, White peices are standardised to go first, that is the rules, that is what has been the rules for hundreds of years now, there is a greater following of chess then for Warhammer 40K, Sure there are people that like the black peices over the white, but if they play black every point, they know that the established rule is that white goes first, no matter what.

 

In translation: NL are a CHAOS legion, not a LOYALIST chapter. There are established rules for both... simple logic dictates that you use the rules established for the CHAOS army that you intend to use.

[Brother Aiwass]

Good morning ^_^

 

@Legatus,

 

As I said a marine is a marine is a marine... There are just a bunch of guys in power armor, no matter if they are blue, green, yellow or red, they still marines at the end of the day. And here you disagree with my opinion. I'm start to think that you are misunderstanding me on pourpose.

 

Of course that are different rules for SW, BA, DA and so on -and this is the fact. That's the whole point of the OP (if not would only be codex Ultramarines). He want to use the BA rules for his NL, and GW support that. The game is not the only part hobby, the hobby also include painting and modelling and you are free to paint and convert your expensive army in the way what you want. Are you also against the use of the normal tactical marine box to model SW by chance? You see, because they're not truly Space Wolves, just generic guys and in you opinion a marine is not a marine...

 

If you have an opponent and you notify him that you're using other codex -say C:BA- and he agree to play and then he assume that he's playing against C:CSM that guy is just not paying attention (and this is not just merely my opinion).

 

BTW you can also disagree to play against a BA player using the BA rules just because no one can force you to play against an army or person do you don't like. In the other hand, if the local store agree to use X dex to Y army in a tournament is fine, because they're earning money and that's the whole point of the hobby for the companies/bussines.

 

Salamanders used to have a codex shared with the Black Templars. Was called Codex Armageddon. What happened here? The BT became the pretty boys of the moment and win his own codex, then the Salamanders were so screwed to the point that they became Ultramarines.

 

Cheers.

[Marshal Rohr]

Silly Chaos players. Its hilarious how much a player takes after their army.

[Brother Delias]

Silly Chaos players. Its hilarious how much a player takes after their army.

 

It's not just the Chaos players... every facet of this game has the same arguements. Well, not the SAME arguments per se, but has people aregueing about what isnt good enough, or what is cheese, or some other nonsensical subject as well... this.

[Legatus]

Notanoob:

Anyways, I'm fine with count as, and I find it hard to believe that people can't remember that they are facing count as that have this special rule instead of that one for one game. (...)

 

Anyways, I say screw WYSIWYG. It makes people act too strict compared to the 'beer and pretzels' attitude that is espoused. Plus it can get expensive.

I am not saying 'counts as' is vile and should be banned everywhere. If your opponents are ok after you have informed them that you will not play your Chaos Space Marines according to Codex Chaos Space Marines, then everyome is happy. What I am arguing against is the notion that playing Chaos Space Marines with a different Codex should be considered WYSIWYG and everyone has to accept it because it goes against no conventions or rules at all. I disagree with that notion. If one uses a different Codex than the one intended for the force, then that breaches WYSIWYG, because the opponent would expect that the army would be played according to the proper Codex.

 

 

---

 

Maximys:

 

If you have an opponent and you notify him that you're using other codex -say C:BA- and he agree to play and then he assume that he's playing against C:CSM that guy is just not paying attention (and this is not just merely my opinion).

As I said, if both players agree that using other Codices is fine, then everyone is happy, no one is wronged. But I still consider using a different set of rules than one would naturally expect a breach of WYSIWYG. If an opponent sees a squad of Grey Hunters, he will automatically associate certain rules with them. If they use other rules than that, then he is not getting what he sees. If his opponent had informed him, then he should know better, but that's how 'Counts as' or proxying works. The opponent informs you that a unit or model is something else than you would think from looking at it.

 

 

---

 

the jeske:

 

If he sees a Space Wolf with power armouor and boltgun, he will assume that the model has an additional CCW and 'Counter-attack' .

after someone tells him that he is using codex sm ? I realy dont get the though proces.

1. If a player sees a Squad of Space Wolves Grey Hunters, without being told anything, he will assume that the squad uses the rules for Grey Hunters from the Codex Space Wolves.

 

2. If a player is told in advance that the Space Wolves army is not player according to Codex Space Wolves, but according to Codex Space Marines (as an example), then he should know that the Space Wolves Grey Hunters now have the stats and equipment of a Tactical Space Marine from Codex Space Marines.

 

If he now momentarily and by mistake assumes that the squad still has acute senses, counter-attack and an extra CCW, then that was because he forgot that the model was supposed to have different rules. It was his mistake. But he only made this mistake because that model normally has the rules from Codex Space Wolves. The model is not using it's proper rules, it is using differrent rules. Such a mistake is easily made, even subconciously when considering how strong a unit will be in combat. Players have probably more respect of a unit of Grey Hunters in combat than they have of a unit of Tactical squads.

 

The point is, the player is not "getting what he sees". He sees a Space Wolves Grey Hunter, which is a unit with a distinct profile. But he will not get such a profile. He will get the profile of a different unit from a different Codex. He knows what he gets because you had to tell him. It's not what he sees.

 

 

Whether the opponent is seeing a Blood Angels Marine with boltgun, a Dark Angels Marine with boltgun, a Black Templar, Ultramarine, Iron Warrior or Space Wolf with boltgun, then in each case he will assume that the model has certain rules.

why would he assume that ?

Common sense?

 

Why wouldn't he assume that a Blood Angels army is played according to Codex Blood Angels?

 

 

nope . vets have metal models that look different . nobz and flash gitz look different , size if model is different . Now if they looked identical then it would be a DQ[right now] , if GW would have made the models look the same then still the unit set up and the look of gear would be different . A unit of tacs cant have 10 combis , neither can it be given a hvy weapona at 5 man . So no they dont have the same gear.

The Veteran models just have a bit more bling. If players converted their tacticals with a bit more bling, then they would look undistinguishable from veterans, depending on the Chapter. Or what about players who have a squad of Veterans since 2nd or 3rd Edition? Are those models illegal now, since the metal models have been released? Flash Gitz do not have an official look right now, apart from one single model. They have the same stats as Nobz in the current Codex, probably as a nod to the big Flash Gitz Orks from the Dawn of War game. Veterans are not allways given combi weapons, so they will often have the same equipment as tacticals. The point is: You can have a squad of Veterans and a Tactical squad with the same equipment. You can haver a squad of Nobz and a squad of Flash Gitz with the same equipment. Sometimes WYSIWYG just isn't entirely based on equipment. Sometimes the paintjob is important as well. Such as white shoulder stripes and helmets to denote Veterans. Or red armour and the Blood Angels Chapter symbol to make clear that they are using the Codex Blood Angels.

 

 

Boys and Kommandos can have the same wargear.

how ? boyz dont have snik or outlfank rules .

Er... Snik is not allways present, and 'outflank' is not a visible piece of equipment. The squad may occasionally not outflank at all. Games go for several turns, units are moved around. At some point there will be a unit of Orks with sluggas and Choppas, with one Rokkit Launcher and a Nob with Powerclaw. Now, without any special paint job or extra bits that are entirely irrelevant to the unit's wargear, how can the opposing player tell whether this unit will be able to quickly move through that piece of terrain between them and his unit? The answer is of course: He cannot tell that just from the unit's wargear. The unit could be either a squad of Kommandos or a squad of Boys with that kind of gear. What would distinguish the Kommandos from the Boys is the paint scheme and the extra bits, like back packs and extra grenades, or face masks. Again, sometimes these things matter for WYSIWYG.

 

 

And if that RA is 24" away, but painted as CSMs, the opponent might assume that they can fire boltguns next turn. Or he might assume that the "Champion" has Ld 10, when he really only has Ld 9.

and with rhinos moving 18" per turn in the BA dex he thinks good. What do Ld test have to do with knowing if a unit is RAS or not . Dudes didnt use bolt guns .

A unit wit hLd 9 is easier to pin or to rout via shooting than a unit with Ld 10. And jump pack less Blood Angels assault squads cannot fire over a distance of 24", while Jump pack less CSM squads with modeled chainswords and pistols can.

 

 

not to mention that prior the game the NL guy rolls for every unit to check if they get red thirst . I mean that alone should tell my opponent what list am using .

The point remains, he only knows that you are using unusual rules because you had to tell him. You are not using the rules a player would expect from seeing your army. You are not using the proper rules for your units and your army. The opponent is not getting what he sees. It is not WYSIWYG. It is proxying.

 

 

Obviously pure Word Bearers would not use cult units. I don't understand your question

you claimed that a NL list is viable and chaos players with the Gav dex gained options that were before only limited to certain legions

In the previous Codex, basic Chaos armies could only get 0-1 unit of Raptors, only 0-1 unit of Obliterators and no Vindicators. Night Lords had special rules and were not limited in the number of Raptor units they could use. Iron Warriors had special rules and were not limited in the number of Obliterator squads they could use, and they alone could get Vindicators.

 

The current Codex has removed the limitation on Raptors and Obliterators for the basic list, and has added Vindicators to it. Therefor the current Codex still lets you theme your force as a Night Lords or Iron Warriors force, similar to how they were constructed in teh previous Codex. Several specific Legion choices have been incorporated in the basic list, just as GW had done it with Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard and Space Marines. Only one basic list, but several of the formerly special army choices have been included in the basic list. In no Codex has every special choice been incorporated into teh basic list. In each case the special armies, such as Alaitoc, Salamanders, Speed Freeks, Catachans, etc., were losing a few of their distinct rules. GW did the same with the Codex Chaos. Several units and choices had previously only been available to individual Legions. Now they are all constructed with the basic list.