Night Lords with blood angels codex

[Brother Hadafix]

Silly Chaos players. Its hilarious how much a player takes after their army.

Says the Wolf Templar :D

 

Legatus, where are these rules in the C:CSM for NL? I've gone through it and not found any anywhere! Sure there is a paint scheme for them, but that can be said of any army in PA in the game.

[Marshal Rohr]

The sense of entitlement in this thread is nauseating. Just because you used to have some rules, and then lost them, doesn't mean games workshop is testing you to see which of their codexes can best represent the 'true' list for that army. If you dont like the flavor anymore, its time to find a new army....

[Quixus]

Legatus, where are these rules in the C:CSM for NL? I've gone through it and not found any anywhere! Sure there is a paint scheme for them, but that can be said of any army in PA in the game.

There are none. All Legions/Warbands get the same stuff. Everyone even gets a Badass HQ with special Daemon Sword and Lightning Claw (Abaddon) according to Counts As. or the Crazy Axe-Murderer (Khârn). Would someone assume those are normal (unnamed) HQs even if you told them who the models represent?

 

@Marshal2 Crusaders: yeah that's what GW wants.

[Notanoob]

I am not saying 'counts as' is vile and should be banned everywhere. If your opponents are ok after you have informed them that you will not play your Chaos Space Marines according to Codex Chaos Space Marines, then everyome is happy. What I am arguing against is the notion that playing Chaos Space Marines with a different Codex should be considered WYSIWYG and everyone has to accept it because it goes against no conventions or rules at all. I disagree with that notion. If one uses a different Codex than the one intended for the force, then that breaches WYSIWYG, because the opponent would expect that the army would be played according to the proper Codex.

Well of course it's not WYSIWYG, that's kind of the point of "Count As"

 

 

As I said, if both players agree that using other Codices is fine, then everyone is happy, no one is wronged. But I still consider using a different set of rules than one would naturally expect a breach of WYSIWYG. If an opponent sees a squad of Grey Hunters, he will automatically associate certain rules with them. If they use other rules than that, then he is not getting what he sees. If his opponent had informed him, then he should know better, but that's how 'Counts as' or proxying works. The opponent informs you that a unit or model is something else than you would think from looking at it.

There is no way that you wouldn't inform your opponent, unless you're a cheating git.

 

1. If a player sees a Squad of Space Wolves Grey Hunters, without being told anything, he will assume that the squad uses the rules for Grey Hunters from the Codex Space Wolves.

 

2. If a player is told in advance that the Space Wolves army is not player according to Codex Space Wolves, but according to Codex Space Marines (as an example), then he should know that the Space Wolves Grey Hunters now have the stats and equipment of a Tactical Space Marine from Codex Space Marines.

 

If he now momentarily and by mistake assumes that the squad still has acute senses, counter-attack and an extra CCW, then that was because he forgot that the model was supposed to have different rules. It was his mistake. But he only made this mistake because that model normally has the rules from Codex Space Wolves. The model is not using it's proper rules, it is using differrent rules. Such a mistake is easily made, even subconciously when considering how strong a unit will be in combat. Players have probably more respect of a unit of Grey Hunters in combat than they have of a unit of Tactical squads.

 

The point is, the player is not "getting what he sees". He sees a Space Wolves Grey Hunter, which is a unit with a distinct profile. But he will not get such a profile. He will get the profile of a different unit from a different Codex. He knows what he gets because you had to tell him. It's not what he sees.

This whole thing is invalid, as not informing your opponent that you are using count as is straight up cheating.

 

The Veteran models just have a bit more bling. If players converted their tacticals with a bit more bling, then they would look undistinguishable from veterans, depending on the Chapter. Or what about players who have a squad of Veterans since 2nd or 3rd Edition? Are those models illegal now, since the metal models have been released? Flash Gitz do not have an official look right now, apart from one single model. They have the same stats as Nobz in the current Codex, probably as a nod to the big Flash Gitz Orks from the Dawn of War game. Veterans are not allways given combi weapons, so they will often have the same equipment as tacticals. The point is: You can have a squad of Veterans and a Tactical squad with the same equipment. You can haver a squad of Nobz and a squad of Flash Gitz with the same equipment. Sometimes WYSIWYG just isn't entirely based on equipment. Sometimes the paintjob is important as well. Such as white shoulder stripes and helmets to denote Veterans. Or red armour and the Blood Angels Chapter symbol to make clear that they are using the Codex Blood Angels.

Orks are kind of an exception to the rule, converting and crazy stuff is just how every ork player roles. The only exception is the "Red Paint Job" upgrade.

 

Er... Snik is not allways present, and 'outflank' is not a visible piece of equipment. The squad may occasionally not outflank at all. Games go for several turns, units are moved around. At some point there will be a unit of Orks with sluggas and Choppas, with one Rokkit Launcher and a Nob with Powerclaw. Now, without any special paint job or extra bits that are entirely irrelevant to the unit's wargear, how can the opposing player tell whether this unit will be able to quickly move through that piece of terrain between them and his unit? The answer is of course: He cannot tell that just from the unit's wargear. The unit could be either a squad of Kommandos or a squad of Boys with that kind of gear. What would distinguish the Kommandos from the Boys is the paint scheme and the extra bits, like back packs and extra grenades, or face masks. Again, sometimes these things matter for WYSIWYG.

Well let's be honest, Kommados have their own model, players will outflank them 99% of the time and 99% of that time they'll be running them with Snikrot, as there really is no point to them otherwise. You will never see Kommandos start on the board in the Ork player's deployment zone outside of some really wacky scenario.

 

A unit wit hLd 9 is easier to pin or to rout via shooting than a unit with Ld 10. And jump pack less Blood Angels assault squads cannot fire over a distance of 24", while Jump pack less CSM squads with modeled chainswords and pistols can.

Yes, but the difference between Ld9 and Ld10 is marginal. Most people just go "Space Marines->unlikely to be broken" not "CSM-> x% less likly to fail Ld test". Also, if you aren't informed before then, as I said before, the guy's cheating.

 

The point remains, he only knows that you are using unusual rules because you had to tell him. You are not using the rules a player would expect from seeing your army. You are not using the proper rules for your units and your army. The opponent is not getting what he sees. It is not WYSIWYG. It is proxying.

And the problem is...?

 

In the previous Codex, basic Chaos armies could only get 0-1 unit of Raptors, only 0-1 unit of Obliterators and no Vindicators. Night Lords had special rules and were not limited in the number of Raptor units they could use. Iron Warriors had special rules and were not limited in the number of Obliterator squads they could use, and they alone could get Vindicators.

They had more rules than that you know. And Raptors kind of suck this edition.

 

The current Codex has removed the limitation on Raptors and Obliterators for the basic list, and has added Vindicators to it. Therefor the current Codex still lets you theme your force as a Night Lords or Iron Warriors force, similar to how they were constructed in teh previous Codex. Several specific Legion choices have been incorporated in the basic list, just as GW had done it with Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard and Space Marines. Only one basic list, but several of the formerly special army choices have been included in the basic list. In no Codex has every special choice been incorporated into teh basic list. In each case the special armies, such as Alaitoc, Salamanders, Speed Freeks, Catachans, etc., were losing a few of their distinct rules. GW did the same with the Codex Chaos. Several units and choices had previously only been available to individual Legions. Now they are all constructed with the basic list.

It's not quite the same. When Eldar went from Craftworld to one dex, they lost Multiple Seers in a Seer council, black guardians and one extra aspect warrior as troops. It only hurt two Craftworlds, sort of. When Orks klanz got squished into one list, the only ones that got hurt were Snakebites, but they are still mostly there anyways. Space Marines got a bunch of codexes to represent all their stuff, and special characters just in case. IG just lost restrictions and also got the most powerful army in 40K (at higher point games). CSM lost almost everything. Want to play World Eaters? The only thing left over in tact was Khârn and Berzerkers. Same story for the rest of the cult legions, and then the non-cults are stuck with Abbadon and almost nothing else. Chaos lost the most in their transition, and you can hardly blame people for playing a different codex.

[Legatus]

Legatus, where are these rules in the C:CSM for NL? I've gone through it and not found any anywhere!

Ah, their army list is a bit hard to find, because it is all the way at the end of the Codex, and it seems a lot of Chaos players do not read that far as they toss their Codex away in frustration before they get to that part. You will find their army list on the pages 92 to 102 in the Codex Chaos Space Marines. Incidentally, that's where you will find the army list for the Iron Warriors or the Word Bearers, and indeed most of the known Chaos Marine armies. Just in case you are looking for one of those in the future.

 

 

Edit:

 

1. If a player sees a Squad of Space Wolves Grey Hunters, without being told anything, he will assume that the squad uses the rules for Grey Hunters from the Codex Space Wolves.

 

2. If a player is told in advance that the Space Wolves army is not player according to Codex Space Wolves, but according to Codex Space Marines (as an example), then he should know that the Space Wolves Grey Hunters now have the stats and equipment of a Tactical Space Marine from Codex Space Marines.

 

If he now momentarily and by mistake assumes that the squad still has acute senses, counter-attack and an extra CCW, then that was because he forgot that the model was supposed to have different rules. It was his mistake. But he only made this mistake because that model normally has the rules from Codex Space Wolves. The model is not using it's proper rules, it is using differrent rules. Such a mistake is easily made, even subconciously when considering how strong a unit will be in combat. Players have probably more respect of a unit of Grey Hunters in combat than they have of a unit of Tactical squads.

 

The point is, the player is not "getting what he sees". He sees a Space Wolves Grey Hunter, which is a unit with a distinct profile. But he will not get such a profile. He will get the profile of a different unit from a different Codex. He knows what he gets because you had to tell him. It's not what he sees.

This whole thing is invalid, as not informing your opponent that you are using count as is straight up cheating.

This whole thing is valid because it assumes that the player had been informed. It is an explanation for why WYSIWYG is the common and obliging way to go, and why not using WYSIWYG may confuse or influence an opponent even if he had been informed by teh opponent. It was not meant as an argument why proxying or 'counts as' should never be used, but instead highlight that there are certain factors in playing an army with a different Codex than it was intended for.

 

 

Well let's be honest, Kommados have their own model, players will outflank them 99% of the time and 99% of that time they'll be running them with Snikrot, as there really is no point to them otherwise. You will never see Kommandos start on the board in the Ork player's deployment zone outside of some really wacky scenario.

And Blood Angels squads do not have ATSKNF, so as soon as the opponent sees a seeming ly Chaos Marine squad automatically rally or not being run down by higher rolling pursuers, everything will be obvious, no? Well, the point is not how a certain game play will allow the opponent to identify a unit and the rules from which Codex it is using. The point is whether units should be associated with certain rules by their paint scheme and decoration, and not exclusively by what armour and what weapon they are carrying.

 

Veterans and tacticals ==> Same armour, same weapons. Should they be distinguishable by some other means? Such as paint scheme or extra decorations? Of course they should.

 

 

Yes, but the difference between Ld9 and Ld10 is marginal. Most people just go "Space Marines->unlikely to be broken" not "CSM-> x% less likly to fail Ld test". Also, if you aren't informed before then, as I said before, the guy's cheating.

The point is not that one player is cheated, or how much of a difference it makes. A lot of things that are against the rules would not make a lot of difference. The point remains that different Marine models with the same equipment can have different rules, depending from what Chapter they are. And opponents will naturally assume that this Chapter will use it's appropriate Codex. You can tell the opponent that you are not using that Codex and instead a different one. But that means the opponent will not get what he sees.

A lot of my later points from that post give specific examples for why that matters and is an issue, and why using a dofferent "power armoud and boltgun" Codex would be against WYSIWYG.

 

 

The point remains, he only knows that you are using unusual rules because you had to tell him. You are not using the rules a player would expect from seeing your army. You are not using the proper rules for your units and your army. The opponent is not getting what he sees. It is not WYSIWYG. It is proxying.

And the problem is...?

Further explanation for why using a different Codex than teh one that is intended for an army would be considered proxying or 'counts as' and not WYSIWYG and has to be accepted by everyone.

If you have to inform your opponent that your units are not using the rules he might think they do, but instead use other rules, then that is not WYSIWYG.

 

 

It's not quite the same. When Eldar went from Craftworld to one dex, they lost Multiple Seers in a Seer council, black guardians and one extra aspect warrior as troops. It only hurt two Craftworlds, sort of.

They lost a lot more special rules, such as the Alaitoc Ranger ambush table, and several differently placed force organisation slots.

 

 

Space Marines got a bunch of codexes to represent all their stuff, and special characters just in case.

Tell that to Iron Hands or Salamanders players.

 

 

Want to play World Eaters? The only thing left over in tact was Khârn and Berzerkers.

Or maybe come to grips with the fact that some Khorne units may now lose their marks during a game. I do not like this particular mechanic, but it currently is possible to field Khorne Raptors and Khorne Havocs, which was not possible with the previous Codex. If you consider all the possible "Khorne" units, and all the vehicles that can be taken, then a "World Eaters" army would currently have more unit choices than they had in the 3.5 Codex. I am not particularly thrilled about some of these units losing their marks of khorne, as I said, but if you want to talk choices for a particular army, this is what you get.

[shatter]

I've not read all of this and I'm probably wasting my time... BUT!

 

C:BA 81 under Blood Angels and other chapters

This army list is based first and foremost around the Blood Angels, but can also be used to collect an army based around one of their successor chapters. Use the Blood Angels army list presented on the following pages and paint your miniatures using one of the colour schemes shown in this book (or create the colours and heraldry yourself).

 

This should not prevent you using one or more of the Blood Angels special characters (or indeed from using Gabriel Seth, a Flesh Tearers character, alongside a Blood Angels army).They can still be used in the same army, representing the common occurrence of different chapters fighting alongside one another. Alternatively, you can use the model and rules for a named character to represent a mighty hero of a different chapter - for example, using the rules and model for Captain Tycho as a Blood Drinkers Captain, or of a space marine chapter of your own design - you just need to come up with a new name.

 

This is a perfect way to personalise your army - just make sure your opponent is aware of what everything counts as before the beginning of the game to prevent confusion during the battle.

 

According to this, you can't use C:BA without having the right models. I'm sure GW wouldn't mind if your Mephiston stand-in was on the right base size and every piece of wargear was properly represented and the dude looked like him (the GW model) instead of any other libby because looking exactly like mephiston is in effect 'wargear' representing his special rules and powers... But demon princes? If you want to be perfectly correct by RAW, you MUST get every single bit of wargear right but more than that, C:BA insists on the appropriate model. Greedy buggers.

 

The OP is not using 'counts as', he's using proxy.

 

Legatus is right in my opinion... and that of C:BA.

[Hellios]

Hey guys make a Sons of the Night warband (a splinter group of the nightlords I just made up) that look almost like night lords but have purple feet.

 

Now in your mind know they are chaos but when you go to tournys you say they are from blood angels gene stock and just happen to look like the nightlords. Now if people assume they are night lords and make mistakes because of that you can point out the feet and state how they are obviously not night lords and that person should go and kill themselves and it isn't your problem.

 

Oh you can call them something else or paint the feet a different colour... and you don't have to tell the person to kill themselves. But you get the point :cuss If people say you can't use NLs as BAs just claim they are not NLs... problem solved.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hey guys make a Sons of the Night warband (a splinter group of the nightlords I just made up) that look almost like night lords but have purple feet.

 

Now in your mind know they are chaos but when you go to tournys you say they are from blood angels gene stock and just happen to look like the nightlords. Now if people assume they are night lords and make mistakes because of that you can point out the feet and state how they are obviously not night lords and that person should go and kill themselves and it isn't your problem.

 

Oh you can call them something else or paint the feet a different colour... and you don't have to tell the person to kill themselves. But you get the point :cuss If people say you can't use NLs as BAs just claim they are not NLs... problem solved.

 

 

Use loaded dice too! And those movement distances are more of a guideline anyway!

 

In fact, why not include some Thunderwolves and Manticores in your next list as well!?!?!

[shatter]

Err?

 

What Helios suggested (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) is fine as is using an identical NL colour scheme. Paint isn't the issue. It's wargear and special characters.

[Quixus]

Use loaded dice too! And those movement distances are more of a guideline anyway!

 

In fact, why not include some Thunderwolves and Manticores in your next list as well!?!?!

That is cheating and general silliness. Telling your opponent, that he is fighting a DIY Blood Angels Successor, that possibly is listening to the whisperings of chaos but has not yet fully converted, which wears blue armor and brass trim and whose Chapter Symbol is a winged skull isn't. If this army is using only units from C:BA it's totally fine, even if it is only post-heresy and BA specific gear.

I know you say that chaos power armor =/= imperial power armor and Raptor JP =/= SM/BA JP ad so on, but look at the codices' wargear sections. They are named identially and have the same stats (except for DoA)

So you have a marine in PA with a JP and are told you are fighting a Blood Angels successor. So unless this unit has something identifing it otherwise you are obviously dealing with RAS.

 

Several other people and me actually suggested that solution for the hardliners earlier.

[Brother Aiwass]

Hey guys make a Sons of the Night warband (a splinter group of the nightlords I just made up) that look almost like night lords but have purple feet.

 

Now in your mind know they are chaos but when you go to tournys you say they are from blood angels gene stock and just happen to look like the nightlords. Now if people assume they are night lords and make mistakes because of that you can point out the feet and state how they are obviously not night lords and that person should go and kill themselves and it isn't your problem.

 

Oh you can call them something else or paint the feet a different colour... and you don't have to tell the person to kill themselves. But you get the point :lol: If people say you can't use NLs as BAs just claim they are not NLs... problem solved.

 

 

Use loaded dice too! And those movement distances are more of a guideline anyway!

 

In fact, why not include some Thunderwolves and Manticores in your next list as well!?!?!

 

Very constructive advice by the way! Kindly encouragement of the hobby, I say!

[Hellios]

Use loaded dice too! And those movement distances are more of a guideline anyway!

 

In fact, why not include some Thunderwolves and Manticores in your next list as well!?!?!

 

Because I'm using the Caestus assault ram. I don't need to use loaded dice because I've trained in ancient chinese techniques that allow me to roll whatever number I need and while the blurb on movement is more of a guideline as my Caestus has a guidelines of 36 inches it isn't an issue for me anyway.

[the jeske]

And those movement distances are more of a guideline anyway

well with the free pivot rule it is possible . you make a twice as long rhino and you can disembark further + the rules about converted stuff only tell us to place a legal sized unit of the same type when we check LoS , not when we check movment range or weapon range .

[Legatus]

Now in your mind know they are chaos but when you go to tournys you say they are from blood angels gene stock and just happen to look like the nightlords. Now if people assume they are night lords and make mistakes because of that you can point out the feet and state how they are obviously not night lords and that person should go and kill themselves and it isn't your problem.

Oh, how much I hope that your tournaments use sportsmanship scores. :tu:

[Quixus]

What's unsportsmanlike about playing a DIY Chapter even without the purple feet?

 

Do you have issues with or refuse to play against a Chaos Army where the terminators don't have the ridiculous trophy racks attached? The picture in the Codex shows and its description says that those are/have to be present. Would you confuse them with loyalist terminators, if they had a paintjob similar to a loyalist chapter? Would you accuse the player of trying to cheat?

[Legatus]

What's unsportsmanlike about playing a DIY Chapter even without the purple feet?

What's unsportsmanlike about taking a Night Lord, repainting the feet, and then claiming that the model is obviously not a Night Lord and the opponent should have realized that and not expected the model to be a Night Lord, even though it is except for the feet?

[the jeske]

ok legatus . one question , are you seriously claiming that in most parts of the world the opposing army is recognized by the way it is painted or modeled and not because someone tells you that he is playing codex X ? because only then the whole thing makes any sense . If so I want to tell you that from my expriance main land europe does not look or care how the models look like as long as the codex is there and the models are WYSIWYG . it doesnt matter if the army is called NL, pre heresy DG etc what matters is the dex and how the gear that is suppose to be modeled looks like . As long as all plasmas/meltas/RL etc look the same no one here cares if the army you claim to be playing is painted red , blue or green . In fact outside of tournaments a lot dont care if it is painted at all. [in the gaming , not estetic aspect of w40k].

 

I have seen countless pre and post heresy armies done with different loyalist dex around whole europe , I have never seen people argue about if they are legal or not , or the paint used on the makes it hard to recognized what kind of an army is it /. Because for the third time , If someone tells you he is using codex BA for NL and you still think it is codex csm , it stops being his problem and becomes your problem of how much are you focused on the game .

 

 

Oh, how much I hope that your tournaments use sportsmanship scores.

outside of north of europe , most dont . and god knows how it works in UK . sportsmanship score is a stupid thing , it buffs team play [the bigger the team the better the chance of higher score] , makes people who lose against you give you low sportsmans shop score [just to take you down the ladder] and generates stuff like the OP army effect when suddenly sob and necron are OP and those armies that have 1 unit per slot are considered spaming etc. Sportsmans ship also hits harder against people that are not from the local gaming comunity . You wont give 0 to a guy you will play or at least see next week , there is absolutly nothing stoping you from giving 0 to a guy that you maybe see next year on nationals [what with most w40k players staying for around a year often means never].

 

My own personal [bad] expiriance with sportsmans ship and converting looks like this . I have seen my friend get DQ in the UK for his orks being armed with bolters and not shotas[army was based around 2ed orks which were sold with bolters and it was the transition time from 2ed to 3ed]

[Quixus]

Are you assuming that such a player is simply putting his models on the table without ever telling the opponent, what codex he is using or showing him his army list?

If that is the case, this is indeed unsportsmanlike, but I don't see a problem with telling the opponent that he is playing against BA and then telling him which JP Marines are RAS, VV, HG or SG. Of course those units should all be modeled differently, if not that can be misleading an thus unsportsmanlike.

[Legatus]

ok legatus . one question , are you seriously claiming that in most parts of the world the opposing army is recognized by the way it is painted or modeled and not because someone tells you that he is playing codex X ?

I am seriously claiming that when people see a Blood Angels army, they will assume that they are played with Codex Blood Angels, and when they see a Space Wolves army, tehy will assume that it is played with Codex Space Wolves, and when they see an Iron Warriors or Night Lords army, tehy will assume that it is played with Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

You can tell your opponent that your Blood Angels are not using the Codex Blood Angels, and instead use the Codex Space Wolves. Just like you can tell your opponent that your heavy bolters are not used as heavy bolters and are instead supposed to count as laser cannons in this game.

 

 

Are you assuming that such a player is simply putting his models on the table without ever telling the opponent, what codex he is using or showing him his army list?

No, I am not assuming that. And I am also not telling you that you should never proxy or use 'counts as'. I am claiming that using a different Codex than one would naturally expect is not WYSIWYG and is a matter of 'counts as' or proxying.

 

In this specific instance of Night Lords with purple feet I mainly did not like the attitude that by painting the feet of an otherwise clearly Night Lord model the opponent is to blame for assuming they are Night Lords when they "clearly" have purple feet.

[Hellios]

Ok I'm playing a renegade blood angels company that turned to chaos and then had their captain slain by a Night lords champion and so got absorbed into his Warband... Do I have Blood Angels or Night Lords now?

 

Oh and Legatus sportsmanship scores are not an issue... he scores me down for using night lords as blood angels and I score him down for being a jerk about me using night lords as blood angels.

[the jeske]

You can tell your opponent that your Blood Angels are not using the Codex Blood Angels, and instead use the Codex Space Wolves

Well different worlds then . In europe people when playing with meq ask about what codex your using first , not what kind of an army your playing . It become a norm to act like that since sm dex lost traits[and the ruling that IF have to be painted in color X to get rules Y was gone] and was very common after codex chaos sm was out , and people who came with chaos models were always asked what kind of a dex they are using . But considering you and possibly your enviroment find codex chaos sm fine , you didnt have the problem .

 

In this specific instance of Night Lords with purple feet I mainly did not like the attitude that by painting the feet of an otherwise clearly Night Lord model the opponent is to blame for assuming they are Night Lords when they "clearly" have purple feet.

ok but I have a problem here . on touraments where armies have to be painted [most of the time at least on most tournaments] and where you could use the paint/model identification your opponent has to carry a list with him [actualy more then one . 1 for the orgs/judges one for himself and one for his opponents] and I doubt anyone would not want to check the list prior the game . so this being a problem for tournaments is out [which would mean for my enviroment it is out too, but am far from generlising stuff like that] . What we are left is the pick up games , testing and tournaments where armies dont have to be painted and lists are not needed[ if such tournaments exist]. I have played in many countries in europe and I have never seen guy in turn 2 going "ups" I forgot to tell you that those nids I play are actualy chaos sm , those tyrants are DPS , those hives are oblits and those 12 man guants squads you see are all zerkers. Everyone always asks what army do you play and by that no one means the fluff of your army , but the codex being used. I mean you make it sound as If games look like this . 2 guys sit for 2 hours talking about fluff of their armies and what historical view they want to give their scenarios , then they take out their fully painted armies[because unpainted with meq would be a horror . you wouldnt be able to tell if you play DA/sm or BAs] and play.

 

 

 

 

Also as WYSIWYG goes . IF all hvy bolters use the same stats in the same army then it is legal . how is something painted is unimportant . how something looks like is unimportant too. one could take 10 man boys units plop a scorcha and a big shota in to each one take 2x2 trike squads a warwagon with ghazkul and nobz and play a ultramarines army led by calgar and it would be totaly legal.

[Scrap-miester]

You forget one thing, variety.

Not only does C:CSM have many units that are outright junk - particularly compared to how they SHOULD be in the fluff, it also has many choices which are un-fluffy for Night Lords.

 

Many units taken from C:BA can be rationalized through count-as, and often come closer to the actual representation in the fluff than units taken from C:CSM does. Granted, Landspeeders and post-heresy tech will be met with blank stares by many but then again, given recent BL publications there is even precedent for Chaos warbands to be using post-heresy tech so if you got rough skin and an active imagination, almost anything will fly.

 

Another thing,

We used to have the ability to differentiate between "our Legion" of choice, and that of other CSM/Legionnaires, now everyone is a bog standard CSM, with the option to take a shiny stick that somehow magically lose it's effect when the bearer dies. :D

Because of this I see the attraction of C:BA as it offers more variety. It lets you personalize your Night Lords and opens up for more variety.

 

I used the BA PDF 'dex for my Raptor Cult and it was only met with praise. Sure many things can be used from C:CSM with count-as, but it doesn't change the fact that they may feel un-fluffy or are pure junk (e.g. Spawn).

 

So - to the OP,

If you really want a fluffy army, you must first decide what the fluff is to you and what your list will be.

Choice vs. restrictions vs. your own perception of the fluff. Then decide on a 'dex.

Quite the conundrum and is often the cause for threads like this turning into debates.

 

However it is your army, do with it as you will, but be creative. ;)

 

This is probably the best response I've seen here. There are an unlimited number of ways to interpret the rules and come to your own decision on how they can be represented on table and within your own army. Night Lords are renowned for terror tactics and lightning strikes. They DO use lots of jump infantry, and it plays along well with the whole "bat wings" theme.

 

I'm sorry but the whole "raptor cult" thing from 3.5 was a bit silly. To say ALL renegade assault squads became raptors is a sweeping generalization, especially with Night Lords who don't worship chaos but rather enslave it... just wanted to get that out.

 

As far as Night Lords having a bunch of jump infantry, make up the fluff for your own Night Lords warband! Not to mention the fact that renegades can do WHATEVER they want... I mean, it's not like they rebelled against the order and justice (however slanted that terminology may be) and then scattered into complete disarray upon losing the Horus Heresy. I see no reason why they couldn't in 10,000 years have decided to train their squads in jump infantry tactics. Just look at the Flesh Tearers, and they even have dwindling numbers much like most of the renegade legions and chapters. Also, considering their Curze died, it's all the more reason too assume warband leaders began their own tactical regimes within the context of terror and fear. Who wouldn't be scared of some 60 or so howling jump packs dropping from the sky in the dead of night to slaughter and wreak havoc on civilization?

 

Anyone that argues against current Mk Jump packs and equipment can be easily told off under the assumption that the gear was stolen. That's an argument that can be made for pretty much any chaos players using a "loyalist" codex. After 10,000 years of fighting the Imperium you don't think the renegades might steal just a few weapons to restock? Maybe take some easily repairable tanks while you're at it? Steal some drop pods after killing a loyalist assault force? I mean, the list goes on and on.

 

All in all, I say go for it. It's your army, build it and play it how you like. And until GW makes a good CSM Codex, I'll probably be in a similar boat...

[shatter]

Anything that doesn't use correct special character models is termed proxying according to the rules. Read C:BA page 81 (quoted complete 17 posts up). It says only their models can represent special character rules.

 

According to the codex, all you can change on them is their paint and name. Anything else requires player/tournament agreement to circumvent the illegality.

 

Would I disallow a list like that? Nope, but that's not the point.

[Quixus]

This only applies to special (named) characters. units, which seem to be the problem here, are not subject to this.

[the jeske]

It says only their models can represent special character rules.

that is a BA only rule . Special codex rules , a lot of dex have stuff like that. We for example have to model wings on our HQs to get the rules , we cant unlike most other dex use anything else to represent it.

 

 

To say ALL renegade assault squads became raptors is a sweeping generalization, especially with Night Lords who don't worship chaos but rather enslave it... just wanted to get that out.

 

the NL did + raptors are raptors [am talking fluff here] not because of the name or because the legion they come from , they are raptors because they use specific pre heresy gear . their jump packs work totaly different then the loyalist ones for example.

 

+ where does it say that raptors worship any form of named chaos god ? was there a retcon to that recently ?