Night Lords with blood angels codex

[Ravenor94]

I can see where a lot of people are coming from.... but then wouldnt it be just as easy, to create a pre-heresy Night Lords legion using BA, but most of the post-heresy Night Lords using C:CSM??

 

It would make a lot of sense, because they would have had to change due too many factors e.g. less chance to recruit, fewer post-heresy weaponry, and them subtly changing the way they fight.

[Brother Aiwass]

According to the codex, all you can change on them is their paint and name. Anything else requires player/tournament agreement

 

This statement apply to the whole game, not just 'count as'.

 

Player 1: ...and this is Calgar.

Player 2: Ok, I'm out *takes his army off the table*

Player 1: WHY?! Is the official model!!

Player 2: Don't care, I don't agree, bye!

 

EDIT:

 

I can see where a lot of people are coming from.... but then wouldnt it be just as easy, to create a pre-heresy Night Lords legion using BA, but most of the post-heresy Night Lords using C:CSM??

 

It would make a lot of sense, because they would have had to change due too many factors e.g. less chance to recruit, fewer post-heresy weaponry, and them subtly changing the way they fight.

 

Imho is just the reverse, because BA have lots of post heresy stuff and CSM have more accurate pre-heresy stuff.

[Ravenor94]

Fair enuff :)

i can see that idea, and i do agree.

but opinions differ, you'd do it the opposite, i stick by mine, but then its just personal preference for the game and background :(

[Brother Aiwass]

Of course it is :(

[Lord_Caerolion]

Anything that doesn't use correct special character models is termed proxying according to the rules. Read C:BA page 81 (quoted complete 17 posts up). It says only their models can represent special character rules.

 

According to the codex, all you can change on them is their paint and name. Anything else requires player/tournament agreement to circumvent the illegality.

 

Would I disallow a list like that? Nope, but that's not the point.

 

Are you seriously trying to claim that all conversions in the BA codex are illegal? Please, I would love to see you go onto the Blood Angels forum and tell everyone that their converted characters are illegal.

 

This whole thing is stupid. Can we please get this locked, as this will go nowhere, as both sides are simply demonising the other. Lets just leave it as "it can be done for friendly games, just don't expect it for tournaments."

[shatter]

I wasn't demonizing anyone nor claiming anything. I was quoting C:BA. If you have a problem with C:BA, talk to GW.

 

I did add that I wouldn't disallow a list based on conversions. However, all of Legatus's points are valid and correct. Fielding said proxy army no matter how awesome it is, is by agreement only in the RAW sense. Awesomeness does lead to agreement though. *shrug*

[Lord_Caerolion]

I wasn't demonizing anyone nor claiming anything. I was quoting C:BA. If you have a problem with C:BA, talk to GW.

 

I did add that I wouldn't disallow a list based on conversions. However, all of Legatus's points are valid and correct. Fielding said proxy army no matter how awesome it is, is by agreement only in the RAW sense. Awesomeness does lead to agreement though. *shrug*

The "demonizing" wasn't directed at you, just the general direction this "debate" has headed. It's reached the point where the only thing people can do is call the other side bad/cheaters/unfair/unimaginative/'insult of your choice'. If you do allow it, then you're a power-gaming cheater, who probably uses weighted dice, because winning is everything. If you don't, then you're ruining the spirit of the game and are being draconian in a disagreed-with interpretation of the game. It's best just to leave this topic die, or have it locked. There is nothing constructive that can come off keeping this thread alive.

We've stated our opinion, others disagree, and we with theirs. How about we rest contented in the fact that the chances are that none of us will ever actually play against each other, and we'll just agree to disagree.

[Legatus]

Hellios:

Oh and Legatus sportsmanship scores are not an issue... he scores me down for using night lords as blood angels and I score him down for being a jerk about me using night lords as blood angels.

Erm, you just told someone, in your own example of purple footed Night Lords, who was seeing your models and identified them as Night Lords, that it was his own mistake for not recognising that they have different colored feet and are therefor obviously not Night Lords. And then you said he should just go and kill himself and that it is not your problem that he thinks your Night Lords are Night Lords. He was not being a jerk about anything. You fully earned that low sportsmanship score.

 

 

---

 

the jeske:

 

Again, I am NOT saying that you should never proxy and that you should never use counts as. I am merely saying that using a differnet Codex for an army that clearly has it's own Codex is a form of proxying and 'counts as'. If your local group is fine with proxying and 'counts as' then there will be no problem, and you can switch Codices and rules as much as you want. However, in a forum discussion about the basic principles I maintain that switching Codices is proxying, and that if you want to be on the safe side and want to be a courteous opponent, or want to play with "official" rules, you should use the Codex that is intended for your army.

[Brother Delias]

This whole thing is stupid. Can we please get this locked, as this will go nowhere, as both sides are simply demonising the other. Lets just leave it as "it can be done for friendly games, just don't expect it for tournaments."

 

 

You know... if we are demonizing eachother... in the grand scheme of chaos... isnt that a good thing??

 

Congrats guys, we're all egotistic, self serving, opinionated, and prideful....

 

Welcome to the worship of slannesh!

 

Oh... by the by, we're all demon princes now too... RAWRG!!!

 

:blush:

[Hellios]

Hellios:

Oh and Legatus sportsmanship scores are not an issue... he scores me down for using night lords as blood angels and I score him down for being a jerk about me using night lords as blood angels.

Erm, you just told someone, in your own example of purple footed Night Lords, who was seeing your models and identified them as Night Lords, that it was his own mistake for not recognising that they have different colored feet and are therefor obviously not Night Lords. And then you said he should just go and kill himself and that it is not your problem that he thinks your Night Lords are Night Lords. He was not being a jerk about anything. You fully earned that low sportsmanship score.

 

 

 

I told him to go kill himself after he raised the issue by which point he has already been a jerk so I'll give him a low sportsmanship score. This is why sportsmanship won't work because it is a stupid system where I can give people 0's/1's whatever they do. Also as I'm not using the BA list disguised as Night Lord like marines to give myself some strange advantage I don't see why I'm being unsporting. Calling me up on something that matters so little is annoying a ruins the game and that is not what sportsmanship is about... so I'll give them a low score... If they could have kept their mouth shut I might have given them the best game they ever played but now I'll just stomp them on the path to victory.

 

So ter... Your sportsmanship means nothing.

[Affirmation]

After much deliberation, I chose to use Night Lords with the BA codex.

 

Here is what I have:

Chaos Space Marines actually have their own Codex book. It may have been released late 4th Edition, but it is still applicable in 5th Edition as well. With that Codex you get actual Daemon Princes, Chaos Marines, Raptors (which Night Lords don't actually have as Troops), Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc. so there is no need to approximate some loyalists rules to play Night Lords.

i have to agree with this chap For using the BA codex as a nightlords substitute , if GW Hadn't completely screwed up the recent csm codex then he wouldn't have too, and what the hell have they done with this demon crap....a gimic to sell another codex...shame on you GW.

[Rik Riorik]

Creativity is generally a good thing :).

 

For me personally I would feel like it sort of made a bit of a mockery of Codii and their assorted model ranges if done too much but the occasional well thought out and executed "counts as" army is often an exercise in mouth watering, brain orgasming, eye candy delight. But its generally something I'd do if it was something I wanted to do which didn't have an actual Codex already. But t can still work.

 

The only problem I have is that it can be hard keeping track of what is what but you've obviously got an opponent there that you can ask if you forget.

[Marshal Rohr]

After much deliberation, I chose to use Night Lords with the BA codex.

 

Here is what I have:

Chaos Space Marines actually have their own Codex book. It may have been released late 4th Edition, but it is still applicable in 5th Edition as well. With that Codex you get actual Daemon Princes, Chaos Marines, Raptors (which Night Lords don't actually have as Troops), Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc. so there is no need to approximate some loyalists rules to play Night Lords.

i have to agree with this chap For using the BA codex as a nightlords substitute , if GW Hadn't completely screwed up the recent csm codex then he wouldn't have too, and what the hell have they done with this demon crap....a gimic to sell another codex...shame on you GW.

 

 

In your opinion the Codex is screwed up. GW recognizes the Chaos Codex as the Codex you are supposed to use for you Chaos Marines.

 

Chaos players constantly whine and moan about your substandard codex and the ruination of your fluff, but you need to come to terms with it. I play with a 4th Ed Codex with substandard wargear, and no redux in sight. Necrons and Tau suffer similarly. What about the Sisters players? What about the Non Grey Knight Malleus players?

 

You got dealt a bad card, every faction gets dealt crap cards once in a while. The way it has been going just wait your turn and you'll have a decent codex again.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In your opinion the Codex is screwed up. GW recognizes the Chaos Codex as the Codex you are supposed to use for you Chaos Marines.

 

Chaos players constantly whine and moan about your substandard codex and the ruination of your fluff, but you need to come to terms with it. I play with a 4th Ed Codex with substandard wargear, and no redux in sight. Necrons and Tau suffer similarly. What about the Sisters players? What about the Non Grey Knight Malleus players?

 

You got dealt a bad card, every faction gets dealt crap cards once in a while. The way it has been going just wait your turn and you'll have a decent codex again.

 

Sisters: still playable using Allies rules; expensive but not impotent

Daemonhunters: still playable using Allies rules; expensive but not impotent, even with the loss of Grey Knights

Tau: still playable, still a mobile shooty army, still winning tournaments; USRs dinged some wargear and their price tag sucks, but is still effective

Necrons: substandard under this edition without Monolith spam; getting their new Codex in a matter of months and will probably be the most powerful new kid on the block

 

If "coming to terms with it" was GW's option, then there would be no concept of "Counts As" allowed in any form.

 

In your opinion, the Chaos Codex is the only option Chaos players are supposed to use. GW allows for "Counts As", so their opinion is that Codex substitution is perfectly acceptable.

[Brother Delias]

Khestra... that is simply excuse... 'counts as' is for determining models, not entire armies... ustilising a codex not intended for the army you choose to use under the pretense of 'counts as' is abuse of the concept.

 

However...

 

the OP has made his point clear, and there are people on both sides of the fence. This is going to be an issue until GW makes the full determination. As GW prefers to be silent on the issue, it does stand to reason that GW is ok with this butchery of their own system. It is wrong on many levels, but right in just as many. That point is as plain as day, and no matter how much it is disputed, THAT will not change.

 

I am against it, I have already stated and cited reasons for my opinions on the matter, there is no reason to do so again. Honestly, just let it die, this whol arguement is pointless... as someone else already stated that unless you REALLY want to go however many miles it will take to put your finger in someone elses face and tell them "NO YOU'RE WRONG!!!" There is really no point to keep this going on.

[Bulwyf]

Am I the only person who thinks using another codex for your army is fine among friends/casual play if the other guy agrees to it but there's no way in the world you'd get to do it in official tourneys? I honestly can not understand why there are six pages of debate over this.

[Brother Delias]

No Bul, I agree with you, as I have stated before... but apparently no one listens...

[Dark Mechanicum]

I've seen the codex change at tournaments and 99% of the time. Everybody is fine with it because the player made sure to explain and remind. Its up to players not TO's to decide what is ok. I almost saw a TO allow the nids for a tournament the day they came out which was the night before round 1. Yea, real smart idea.

 

Once again. Its his hobby not anybody elses. Let people do what they want and they will reap the benefits/consequences of what they do based on where they play. So yea, lets lock it down for the love of Khorne.

[Whitefireinferno]

See I dislike the "Counts-as" rule used as whole army thing and If I am forced to fight against one I will Just ask what codex they are using and Be done with it I do not care how you try and justifie your fluff for it If its using BA it is just a weird coloured BA army and how it would be written in a Batrep "Today Whitefireinferno's FT fought some weird purple BA" ect Some things I do not mind Like My Orks Wazdakka on a looted thunda wulf Mount eg Bike of the Apockaylpse But when I have to put up with these Marines are this and those ones are that and these ones with no arms are really this is where I draw the line.

 

Also I have a thing If it is a Nicely converted force I have No issues Like a Mates Egypt themed TS Daemons Army made out of Kroot made into Jackel headed warriors and the like Not a random assortment of Marines counting as Everything under the sun.

[AngeloftheBlood]

So much ignorance and holier than thou was in this thread that I hate the game I love so much right now. I have played Blood angels for ten years and all I have to say to this army is .... at least some one has a use for this unholy abortion of a codex that P.O.S. mat ward wrote. I love counts as armies they Give new Life to different codex's in stead of everyone playing the same list from the same dex.

 

And my are any of you bitching he isnt playing leafblower or SW, BE HAPPY DAMMIT

[HunterEste]

So much ignorance and holier than thou was in this thread that I hate the game I love so much right now. I have played Blood angels for ten years and all I have to say to this army is .... at least some one has a use for this unholy abortion of a codex that P.O.S. mat ward wrote. I love counts as armies they Give new Life to different codex's in stead of everyone playing the same list from the same dex.

 

And my are any of you bitching he isnt playing leafblower or SW, BE HAPPY DAMMIT

 

The attitude in this thread is disgustingly sad. It's time we all took a moment to take a deep breath....

 

...ok say it with me:

 

"We play a game with plastic toy soldiers"

 

think about that for a moment.

 

Counts-as armies seem to be a hotly debated topic. Quite simply, if your local game shop allows them, then go for it, just make sure you have everything documented and you explain clearly to your opponent. No need to rage on a message board at people who you probably will never play against (therefore in the end, does what they rage at you really matter?). Find out what the local opinion/ruleset is regarding counts-as, that's what matters.

 

Honestly, I've played against 12 year old whose attitudes are better than what I'm seeing in this steadily declining thread...

[Hellios]

Honestly, I've played against 12 year old whose attitudes are better than what I'm seeing in this steadily declining thread...

 

Alas the trouble with the internet is that it allows all of the world's greatest minds to meet... :rolleyes: If you need proof read the comments section on youtube.

 

But I agree that anything that makes the game more interesting is good and anything that makes it less interesting is bad. That is why I lament the loss of the 3.5 chaos dex so much.

[Payce]

So I wade through six pages of unpleasantries directed towards one another, all underlining the point you're all trying to make, regardless of the side they're on; "I'm right and you suck." And the fun part is that none of you are even mentioning Drop Pods.

 

I use Codex: Blood Angels to represent my Night Lords. I'm not ashamed to say so. I've discussed it with my gaming friends, and guess what? They all agree that Chaos Space Marines using an alternative codex to Drop Pod in - and Night Lords in particular - is perfectly allright. Traitor Legions using Drop Pods in just about any piece of fluff out there are commonplace. I could have used Codex: Space Wolves - but as some soul already mentioned in this thread, that's practically Codex: World Eaters. I could have used Codex: Space Marines, by all means, but I find the idea of not having Dreadnoughts that actually fit with my army theme work better for me.

 

My point is that I don't care for a minute which rules I'm using, as long as I get to play the game and convert the models I want to at the same time. And neither should OP. Talk with your friends and gaming circle. Agree and disagree on what's OK and not, what's WYSIWYG and what's "counts as". Make house rules. I'll tell you from experience, walking is a lot more comfortable without a stick up your rear.

[Lexington]

After the new FAQ releases today, bringing the DA and BTs up to speed with the rest of the 5th Edition, Angelust from Warseer made what is possibly the most insightful comment I've seen on this particular topic...

 

Say hello to a thousand new Deathwing armies...

 

Or the extremely ironic Counts As Deathwing armies using Loganwing models....

 

"This represents my army better..."

[Hellios]

My Deathwing army isn't new but I'm sure it will hit the field more often now.