The Future

[melvinmcsnatch]

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[Eltnot]

I'll use conscripts as an example. They are 80 points for 20 and 4 points per model thereafter. So for 80 points you have a mob of T3 wounds that can safely sit on an objective and go to ground for a nice 3+ cover save for under 100 points. I can't even buy a squad of sisters for that price, they still have lasguns so can shoot when not being overly threatened and will take twice as long to remove in shooting. If people engage them in HtH, then they've already smashed your forces and broken through so you've probably lost anyhow. How exactly is this bad?

 

Or move them forward and engage a tough unit like terminators or Tau Crisis suits. With a BoSL nearby they'll sit there and tie them up for quite a few turns, giving you the time to deal with the rest of his force. How is this a bad thing again?

 

If you don't want to use them, that's fine, you don't have to. No one is forcing you to, but that doesn't mean that others won't, and including them doesn't stop GW from adding other units either now does it?

 

The new codices are full of stronger, tougher and more point efficient armies. For no reason do we need any weaker choices than we already have.

What are termagaunts and guardsmen? Just because something is cheap doesn't mean that it isn't effective.

[Eddie Orlock]

No your right there i do NOT want to see a useless, cheap and did i mention useless unit of meat shields.

Maybe I'm a superlative commander, but my zealot hoards won games. A half dozen evicerators can make a mess of a lot of things in close combat. I found them to be almost the perfect dread hunting unit and a good choice to fight banshees. Really, anything that ignored armour could struggle against them, I used them to eat tactical terminators. They pay a premium to ignore your save, you save points by not taking a save, the math works.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

If GW is going to fill important slots of the chart i'd rather it be with more usefull trrop choices.

Like:

Celestien CC squad

Celestien special weapons options

Repentia being cheaper and able to have the Sororitas ruling. I dont understand them being 20 points each and only I:1 and unable to use Faith.

Seraphins with better CC

Instead of stupid Meat Shields why not put in a squad of preachers/priests/confessors?

Bring back heavy flamer Retributor squads

 

Allow retinue sqauds of the Canoness to allow Hospitalars/Dialogus/Famulous

Upgrade Inquisitorial Storm troopers to new IG level.

If you like bikes fine, allow them for Arbites for all the Judge Dredd lovers.

Drop out Rhino's just for Repressors to replace them.

Maybe invent new options for Elites/Troops/Fast Attack and Heavy support. But Make them Sisters.

 

As for your Militia doing so well, thats great, but how do you get Eviscerators when they werent around until the current codex? i own both codex's and the bess CC weapon they had was a 2 handed sword, and as for guns well at best it allowed 2 boltguns. I'd rather use my Repentia ( though costing in points) chase down termies and tanks and win with nearly always surviving the game (maybe with just 2 or 3 left).

[andrewm9]

i think Eddie was referring to Zealots which were Chapter Approve din White Dwarf. They were in an article that came out after the current codex came out. Zealots could have 5 Eviserators in them with 4 Fanatics and a Demagoge. Attach a priest and give them all exterminators and they might prove to very killy. At a certain point though they are no longer cheap which is part of their charm.

[melvinmcsnatch]

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[Eddie Orlock]

i think Eddie was referring to Zealots which were Chapter Approve din White Dwarf. They were in an article that came out after the current codex came out. Zealots could have 5 Eviserators in them with 4 Fanatics and a Demagoge. Attach a priest and give them all exterminators and they might prove to very killy. At a certain point though they are no longer cheap which is part of their charm.

Everything but the exterminators. Those were a waste of points.

 

I had one mob of 20 with the priest, another mob of 20, and a orphanage of 10 with two stubbers who for 56 points would spend the game gone to ground on an objective only shooting if no-one looked their way last turn.

 

It started off as an excuse to field all the misc. models I'd accumulated over the years, but then I found it both enjoyable and combat effective. For the most part they're functionally stubborn on ld 10. Give 'em four-up cover with a group of active arco's and away it goes.

 

Celestians on bikes with sabers? Close combat fast attack?

[Eltnot]

Personally, I call guardsmen and termagaunts "free kill points". Add Orcs to that list. I certainly don't want that playstyle.

 

And I don't know why Tau suits would let you assault him, he could jet pack away after lighting some wimptards up in a perpetual persuit of easy killing. And your strategy calls for a Sister squad to be within 6" for BoSL, so it's no longer a 100 point tie up squad.

Clearly you don't play, or at least not often. A unit of 20-30 models in cover is not an easy kill point by any stretch of the imagination. And last time I check the rest of your army SHOULD be taking BoSL for each unit. If you can't manage to have someone happen to be nearby then I don't think anyone can help you.

 

As for catching crisis suits it's called running out of table to run away. My other army is Tau and I know this fact very well. You box them in so that they can't get out and keep pushing until they run out of table space.

 

My comments in Italics:

If GW is going to fill important slots of the chart i'd rather it be with more usefull trrop choices.

Like:

Celestien CC squad Sure I guess, although I think they should just give them Sarissas

Celestien special weapons options They already have access to special weapons, what more do you want?

Repentia being cheaper and able to have the Sororitas ruling. I dont understand them being 20 points each and only I:1 and unable to use Faith. No real complaints here

Seraphins with better CC How exactly? They already have elite stats and count as getting a bonus attack from two weapons.

Instead of stupid Meat Shields why not put in a squad of preachers/priests/confessors? Why not have both? Those priests need a flock to lead after all

Bring back heavy flamer Retributor squadsKind of invalidates dominion squads doesn't it? Maybe some type of new anti tank weapon that has a longer range than a multimelta, (though not as strong) so we can choose something other than exorcists for our anti tank.

 

Allow retinue sqauds of the Canoness to allow Hospitalars/Dialogus/Famulous No problems here, I won't say no to FnP

Upgrade Inquisitorial Storm troopers to new IG level. That would make them overpriced and crap compared to our other choices

If you like bikes fine, allow them for Arbites for all the Judge Dredd lovers. You really don't like the idea of biker sisters do you? If you don't like them, don't use them, no one is forcing you at gun point to go out and buy the models. I agree that I don't really want sisters on bikes, but attack bikes on the other hand would be cool.

Drop out Rhino's just for Repressors to replace them. I'd rather not have to pay more money to replace all of my rhinos, but I would love to be able to take repressors from the codex.

Maybe invent new options for Elites/Troops/Fast Attack and Heavy support. But Make them Sisters. There's not a lot more that you can add without adding vehicles or non sister units.

[Eddie Orlock]

Maybe invent new options for Elites/Troops/Fast Attack and Heavy support. But Make them Sisters. There's not a lot more that you can add without adding vehicles or non sister units.

Well, we all seem to loath the repentia's lack of power armour, but maybe a unit of Dialogous Scouts in carapace. They are, after all, supposed to be the infiltraition experts there to subvert newly found humans into the imperial cult. Maybe they know a thing about recon?

 

In the same vein, pull the hospitaliers off into their own squad, the Sororita field hospital, if it lives at the end of the game, take a five-up save against every kill point you yielded as they patch their sisters up.

 

Famulous spotters for off board artillery representing associated navy, guard, or pdf assets?

[Chengar Qordath]

Maybe invent new options for Elites/Troops/Fast Attack and Heavy support. But Make them Sisters. There's not a lot more that you can add without adding vehicles or non sister units.

Well, we all seem to loath the repentia's lack of power armour, but maybe a unit of Dialogous Scouts in carapace. They are, after all, supposed to be the infiltraition experts there to subvert newly found humans into the imperial cult. Maybe they know a thing about recon?

 

In the same vein, pull the hospitaliers off into their own squad, the Sororita field hospital, if it lives at the end of the game, take a five-up save against every kill point you yielded as they patch their sisters up.

 

Famulous spotters for off board artillery representing associated navy, guard, or pdf assets?

Sisters Dialogous are scholars, not infiltration experts.

 

Sisters Famulous are advisers and diplomats working fo the Imperial nobility, not artillery spotters.

 

As for the Sisters Hospitaller, why not just handle them the way every other Imperial codex handles medics, by having them convey Feel No Pain. That's not to mention that a Kill-Point centric unit would be a completely worthless in any battle that doesn't use kill points, and completely broken in any battle that does use them.

[Fredegar Kadere]

Not sure if lore has changed in the last few years with Dark Heresy, but the Dialogous are the fancy book-keepers of information from heretical, xeno, to holy. The Imperium's version of Eldar Halequins maybe.. Yes...

 

The Orders Sabine are the ones that infiltrate the human societies on the fringes of the Imperium to bring folks into the 'flock'. Working with the Missionarius Galaxia, they set themselves up as prophets and seers, 'predicting' the coming of the Imperium and its Imperial Cult. They would make an excellent Scout-type squad or have them be the 'priest' of a band of conscript like troops. I'd prefer scout-type as I really hate the freakshow aspect of Confessors, Zealots, etc.

 

An HQ/Elite sister from the Orders Pronatus would/could function like a techmarine. This is the order dedicated to retrieving, guarding, studying, and repairing artifacts of the Ecclesiarchy as well as the maintainance and blessings of the various holy items touted by the Sisters (banners, symbols, even bodies).

 

Both of those orders were mentioned in the White Dwarf Issue 292(US) going over the background of the Adepta Sororitas.

[melvinmcsnatch]

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[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

To reply to you Eltnot.

For Celestiens the sarrissa is fine, but it doesnt confer and extra attack and neither is it a power weapon they surely need. The need to be be able to hurt, yes i know they hit on 3+, and be able to do damage by ignoring armour saves. What good is a sarissa at T3 if they still get there normal saves, why not just give them a chainsword for free?? They need the options to turn them into 'real' elite choices and elite bodygaurds that there supposed to be. Remember they are the best of all the Sisters of Battle to be able to protect the Canoness.

Take your Honor gaurd from SM, they can have relic blades, TH, power weapons and lots of goodies. Same for IG command squads. Celestiens need to option to be either great at shooting with say upgrade for less Mastercraft bolters with sarissa's or CC varients with options to power weapons.

 

Seraphin, same as the Celestien arguement, though i love them having twin bolters, again give them a choice to make them CC worthy, give them grenades as standard too. Or allow the whole squad to upgrade to twin hand flamers.

 

Bringing back Retributor heavy flamer squads doesn't reduce the capability of the Dominion squad at all. They get a Immolator, and have options of the storm bolter and melta gun. If you go by your theory here, then i guess we dont need Dominion squads at all with Heavy Bolter and MM Retributor squads.

Fast moving transports with Dominions is vastly one of there greatest assets. I personally have 7 of them for my Apoc sized army.

 

How is having AP3 Hellguns crap for Inquisitorial Storm Troopers??

And your right no one is forcing me take them, IF they ever bring them out, which i DO really hope GW doesnt. It would depreciate the Sisters of Battle allowing them actually. Then you may as well just play them as female marines. But again thats just my opinion. If GW made that stupid mistake, then i wont be buying any bikes, not one.

 

As for more options, well new varients on the Immolator, no i dont meen just another razorback either. And im not against SM's by the way, i have a large Salamander army too, maybe a larger version of a flamer, longer range. Or instead of heavy bolters, maybe multiple bolters, similar to a hurricane bolter turret.

Options for troops, i mentioned a priest squad, made up of confessors, priests, and led by a Cardinal. Maybe bring back handflamers as upgrades to basic sisters squads 1 in 5 get one. If GW can think up new Dreadnoughts with Psychic powers, and what not, im sure they are smarter than me and can install new troop options for Elite, Fast, Troops and Heavy.

[Eddie Orlock]

Sisters Dialogous are scholars, not infiltration experts.

 

Sisters Famulous are advisers and diplomats working fo the Imperial nobility, not artillery spotters.

 

As for the Sisters Hospitaller, why not just handle them the way every other Imperial codex handles medics, by having them convey Feel No Pain. That's not to mention that a Kill-Point centric unit would be a completely worthless in any battle that doesn't use kill points, and completely broken in any battle that does use them.

Just wait 'til their fluff fails it's (matt) ward save.

 

Such is the risk of posting from vague memories without the reference material on hand. Still, it could be a role of a diplomat to assist in coordinating with other imperial forces, and of course, a field hospital could have other game effects too.

[Eltnot]

For Celestiens the sarrissa is fine, but it doesnt confer and extra attack and neither is it a power weapon they surely need. The need to be be able to hurt, yes i know they hit on 3+, and be able to do damage by ignoring armour saves. What good is a sarissa at T3 if they still get there normal saves, why not just give them a chainsword for free??

Rerolling to wound would mean getting a second attempt to get those divine guidance rolls of a 6. If you need 5's to wound marines, then half of your successful wounds ignore their save. If you get a reroll when most of your hits fail to wound anyhow, then you get even more chances to roll a six.

 

Seraphin, same as the Celestien arguement, though i love them having twin bolters, again give them a choice to make them CC worthy, give them grenades as standard too. Or allow the whole squad to upgrade to twin hand flamers.

They already come with free frags and kraks. They already have bonus attacks. Very few armies get the ability to field entire units with power weapons and we already have two (arcos and repentia) despite how crap they are currently.

 

Bringing back Retributor heavy flamer squads doesn't reduce the capability of the Dominion squad at all. They get a Immolator, and have options of the storm bolter and melta gun. If you go by your theory here, then i guess we dont need Dominion squads at all with Heavy Bolter and MM Retributor squads.

Fast moving transports with Dominions is vastly one of there greatest assets. I personally have 7 of them for my Apoc sized army.

If I had the option to take multiple heavy flamers and the slot available, I probably would. The only time I wouldn't take these is when all of my heavy support slots were already full.

 

How is having AP3 Hellguns crap for Inquisitorial Storm Troopers??

And your right no one is forcing me take them, IF they ever bring them out, which i DO really hope GW doesnt. It would depreciate the Sisters of Battle allowing them actually. Then you may as well just play them as female marines. But again thats just my opinion. If GW made that stupid mistake, then i wont be buying any bikes, not one.

Sisters of battle can already get AP1 bolters on an intermittent basis. Why would I want to buy AP3 S3 weapons that cost almost 50% more than a sister?

 

As for more options, well new varients on the Immolator, no i dont meen just another razorback either. And im not against SM's by the way, i have a large Salamander army too, maybe a larger version of a flamer, longer range. Or instead of heavy bolters, maybe multiple bolters, similar to a hurricane bolter turret.

No arguments here. At the moment the only worthwhile build is with the heavy flamers.

 

Options for troops, i mentioned a priest squad, made up of confessors, priests, and led by a Cardinal. Maybe bring back handflamers as upgrades to basic sisters squads 1 in 5 get one. If GW can think up new Dreadnoughts with Psychic powers, and what not, im sure they are smarter than me and can install new troop options for Elite, Fast, Troops and Heavy.

I'm not against new options either.

 

Clearly you've never used flames before. Try it out, you'd be suprised how quickly you can get through 20-30 T3 4+/5+ models in cover.

In my experience, if the enemy can get a squad with multiple flamers through your horde of sisters then either two things have occurred.

1. You've been silly and didn't bother to stop the enemy unit.

2. They've smashed your force already and are now simply cleaning up. In which case you've lost anyhow and the death of another 20 models doesn't really matter now does it?

 

In the 20 or so tournament games in which I've used a 25 man IG platoon with my sisters, I have only lost them once whilst the rest of my force was intact. And that was to a unit of Chaos Raptors which after shooting them up only had two models left. Passed their Ld check. They then assaulted my unit in his turn and in a mass of bad dice rolling I failed to kill either of them. He scored two wounds and I rolled box cars for my Ld check. Crap happens and I can't stop that.

 

Generally any unit sitting back there is quite safe as the enemy is too busy trying to deal with your battle sisters. Anything that does make it through should be easy pickings for the guard platoon or your exorcists.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not really on topic, but just to add to the Flamer debate.

 

For the last couple of matches i've been running a Vulkan 'nilla Marine list, to show a stubborn SM playing mate that you can build a potent list form the now looking quite outdated 'nilla dex. :thanks:

 

I love large groups of Cover Save only cheap units. And getting to them is *no* problem. Ether thorugh Heavy Flamer Land Speeders, or Drop Podded Ironclads (or Drop Podding Vulkan himself. My last list used two Ironclads in DPs and Vulkan with a Command Squad in a DP so the Dreads were gaurenteed to both come in turn 1).

 

I routinley eat SM Scouts, Eldar Pathfinders and the like with them. In droves.

 

And with the obligatory Reedemer, it just gets better!

[Algesan]

Sisters Dialogous are scholars, not infiltration experts.

 

Sisters Famulous are advisers and diplomats working fo the Imperial nobility, not artillery spotters.

 

As for the Sisters Hospitaller, why not just handle them the way every other Imperial codex handles medics, by having them convey Feel No Pain. That's not to mention that a Kill-Point centric unit would be a completely worthless in any battle that doesn't use kill points, and completely broken in any battle that does use them.

Just wait 'til their fluff fails it's (matt) ward save.

 

Such is the risk of posting from vague memories without the reference material on hand. Still, it could be a role of a diplomat to assist in coordinating with other imperial forces, and of course, a field hospital could have other game effects too.

 

Trivia from Dark Heresy fluff. At the last rank before a Sister has to choose her path as a Militant or one of the non-Militant orders, she has enough skill choices to join the ranks in a Battle Sister squad as a plain Sister and, of course, at the top of the ranks the various orders merge again so a Canoness could be any of the three.

[melvinmcsnatch]

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[Eltnot]

Not horde Sisters. You must have misread. Sisters have better armor, weapons and faith. I don't want cheaplings like IG infantry, Gaunts, Kroots because they're sooooo easy to burn/shoot/ordinance to death that they're basically free kill points. Ork hordes are higher toughness, but still fry like chicken.

 

Point is, I don't want our next codex to be designed around cheap, hordey troops because I've beaten enough horde armies to know they don't win games.

Yes because when we get a new codex they're going to remove every existing unit and replace it with Frateris Militia. You will no longer be able to buy a sister of battle model in the new book...

 

There is a vast difference between horde armies who can only take cheap units and more elite armies that have access to some cheap units.

[Batface the Hat]

Not horde Sisters. You must have misread. Sisters have better armor, weapons and faith. I don't want cheaplings like IG infantry, Gaunts, Kroots because they're sooooo easy to burn/shoot/ordinance to death that they're basically free kill points. Ork hordes are higher toughness, but still fry like chicken.

 

Point is, I don't want our next codex to be designed around cheap, hordey troops because I've beaten enough horde armies to know they don't win games.

Yes because when we get a new codex they're going to remove every existing unit and replace it with Frateris Militia. You will no longer be able to buy a sister of battle model in the new book...

 

There is a vast difference between horde armies who can only take cheap units and more elite armies that have access to some cheap units.

 

Can I give them bows again? I liked 1/2 point bows. Made 40k more epic.

 

-the Hat

[CompanyChampionSiege]

Hordes are not fail. Having horde units are nice and strategic.

 

Orks are melee machines, stick them in trukks

IG horde armies, also known as leaf blowers, are amazing.

Gaunts are all about the outnumbering you and running you down.

Blood claws for space wolves are epic, especially when you stick lucas in them and then take a LRC for them. Beat stick right there. (though this is not a cheap example)

 

In short: hordes work.

 

HF rets would be a waste. Sisters Don't need another short ranged anti infantry unit. They really could use another long ranged unit, more + versatile fast attack options or improvements to the units they have.

 

As for improvement, i say start with the immolator; make it F13 S12 R10 and make it have Twin-Linked Flame Storm Cannon(s). Don't make it a hovering tank.

 

For seraphim, Make them like Vanguard so they can deepstrike and assault if they can the turn they come in or give them dante's special deepstrike rule when they are grouped with a saint. Also make it so that if you have a cannoness with a jump pack and/or a saint that they can take a seraphim squad as a retinue. I would also take away the ability prevents you from generating faith points after the Saint dies.

 

Bikes are nice (and in my opinion underestimated), having something on the board that is T4 instead of T3 (to most things) would be nice.

 

OH! OH! OH! and add hospitalers to celestine squads and make them confer feel no pain to the unit cause we all know how GW LOVES to hand that out in handfuls (sorry, i had to =\)

[Momento Mori]

Has anyone seen this info from Stickmonkey on the new SoB that are in the pipeline...??

 

Clicky here for some juicy gossipy goodness...

[chaplain belisarius]

plastic sob? :)

[Momento Mori]

plastic sob? ;)

 

You betcha! my money is that we'll get some kind of sneak peek at Games Day/Golden Demon :angry:

[SirTainly]

The Black Library gives SoB Valkyries so I can see that happening, some Fleur-de-Lys icons and new crew figures and you're golden!