lion el jonsons character?

[chaplain belisarius]

basically, what was he like? i see him as tactiturn, brooding, poor people skills but a brilliant strategist...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Well, HH books and DA Codex can give you an idea, but you generally hit the nail in the head.. not much else is known about him. Proud, taciturn, brilliant strategist those are his trademarks....

[Lord_Hail]

Great chess player, lousy go player. What i mean by that is that he was great in the short run but he lack the long term objective sense.

[Vulcan He'Stan]

Think of Mowgli out of the Jungle Book and give him a sword, white long hair and an army of Space Marines. :tu:

[Trel]

I can't remember where I read it, but I remember the Lion being described as having the same sort of personal charm as Horus but his secretive nature prevented him from being able to use it to the same extent as the Warmaster. Certainly, the Lion had the same lofty ambitions as Horus and was among the most aggrieved at the Emperor's choice.

 

Poor social skills aren't surprising. Look at the other primarch who had to raise himself (the Night Haunter) and all of a sudden, the Lion isn't so bad. ...or a thousand times worse, depending on your perspective.

[chaplain belisarius]

thanks guys! :P

[dynamicspartan]

Great chess player, lousy go player. What i mean by that is that he was great in the short run but he lack the long term objective sense.

That contradicts the whole good strategist idea. A strategist is a person skilled in planning action to achieve a major or overall aim. Strategy is more long term than being tactical, which you just made the Lion out to be.

[Trel]

I think he means not that in terms of "long term goals", the Lion was so focused on achieving concrete objectives (like winning) that he didn't necessarily consider the long-term implications of actions, like the social or political ramifications.

 

That would also fit in nicely with his actions during the Heresy. The master strategist would watch from a safe distance to get a lay of the land before diving in. Someone with a more well-defined sense of right/wrong/loyalty would have made all haste to Terra.

[Arioch]

It is not known why the Lion was late for the siege of Terra, although he knew it was coming. So I would not be that quick to judge his "long term" thinking as he did see pretty far. Even the best strategist can fail if he dont know exactly what he is up against. The Lion succesfully lead the crusade against the beasts, a long term operation that took 10 years. What came after that he could not have known.

[Deathwing70]

That would also fit in nicely with his actions during the Heresy. The master strategist would watch from a safe distance to get a lay of the land before diving in. Someone with a more well-defined sense of right/wrong/loyalty would have made all haste to Terra.

 

From the background I remember (unfortunately I can't remember the sources), the Dark Angels were fighting alongside the Space Wolves during the Heresy (Horus ordered them to a far distant corner of the galaxy in preparation of his plans).

While the Lion was pushing to get the fleet back to Terra asap, it was Russ with the "well-defined sense of right/wrong/loyalty" that caused the delay because he wanted to help under siege planets along the route.

 

Ofcourse this could just aswell be viewed as some of the little pieces of background that create that tension between Russ and Lion...

[Trel]

If memory serves me correctly, the friction between the Lion and Russ was over Russ perceiving a slight to his honor when the Lion just summarily killed a guy that Russ was preparing to duel. Russ slugged the Lion and then both parties started over-reacting like crazy and things were awkward for the rest of their lives.

 

(Re-reading "Fallen Angels" now. ... Does that even count as canon, considering how well it was written?)

[dynamicspartan]

I think he means not that in terms of "long term goals", the Lion was so focused on achieving concrete objectives (like winning) that he didn't necessarily consider the long-term implications of actions, like the social or political ramifications.

 

That would also fit in nicely with his actions during the Heresy. The master strategist would watch from a safe distance to get a lay of the land before diving in. Someone with a more well-defined sense of right/wrong/loyalty would have made all haste to Terra.

Oh that makes sense than.

[Phoebus]

The Lion strikes me as equal parts strategist and tactician, and definitely demonstrates a sense of urgency.

 

You have to remember that this is the same guy who, when told of Horus going traitor...

 

1. Understood what the ultimate end-state for such a course of action had to be--defeat the Emperor in Terra.

2. Recognized the tools Horus would absolutely NEED to make this happen--the siege tanks.

3. Put together an ad-hoc task force for a lightning strike that would prevent those weapons from falling into Horus' hands.

4. ... and at the same time was looking to set himself up to be front-runner for next Warmaster.

 

There's no shorting him either on the long-term or short-term. He was aware of ramifications and end-states from the very get-go.

 

As for a defined sense of right and wrong? Russ is definitely portrayed as more humane in that exchange (his decision to stop and help Loyalists as opposed to Lion's desire to press on), but it's the Lion that shows the right priorities. It's no different than combat triage: no doctor or medic wants to see a fellow soldier die, but they separate them by status nonetheless... urgent, routine, etc. Want to help the Loyalists? That's all well and good... until Terra falls, and then it was all for naught.

 

The Lion's not evil, or inhuman. He's just smart and calculating to a degree that he recognizes problems and makes choices that the rest of us wouldn't even want to acknowledge. It's why Nemiel's reaction to the Lion in "Fallen Angels" is so laughable to me in its naivete: your Primarch just told you that Horus' betrayal cannot have come without him having a number of moles, spies, and fifth columns to aid him throughout the Imperium. And then you lose faith when he asks for a second opinion on two men who could very well fall under that category?!?

[Frater Uriah]

The Lion is described by Lorgar in The First Heretic as "the Emperor's rationality, devoid of conscience," and "the consummate general." He is also said to have taken umbrage at the Emperor's appointing Horus to the office of Warmaster, feeling that he himself was much better suited for the role. Considering he also is said to have racked up a tally of victories only second to Horus's, despite his having been found much later than the Luna Wolves Primarch, his indignation may have been justified.

 

This, I think, sheds much insight into his character.

[Trel]

The Lion's not evil, or inhuman. He's just smart and calculating to a degree that he recognizes problems and makes choices that the rest of us wouldn't even want to acknowledge. It's why Nemiel's reaction to the Lion in "Fallen Angels" is so laughable to me in its naivete: your Primarch just told you that Horus' betrayal cannot have come without him having a number of moles, spies, and fifth columns to aid him throughout the Imperium. And then you lose faith when he asks for a second opinion on two men who could very well fall under that category?!?

 

Well, the Lion's certainly not human, he's a primarch. B)

 

Doesn't it seem strange, though, that a being as mighty as a primarch with a hyper-intelligent mind and hyper-acute senses, has difficulty reading people, even people with what the primarch's lessers describe as a 'forthright' nature? Even more telling, in that same scene in Fallen Angels, the Lion insists to the brother he's been fighting closely alongside for fifty years that "he's not a brigand", completely mis-interpreting Nemiel's point.

 

Horus, Sanguinius, they would have known if someone was being less than open. All the Lion had was his paranoia and his probability calculations on how likely it was they were being truthful.

 

There are numerous accounts in history of feral children' being found (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child) in nature and all of them suffered severely for their lack of human contact in their formative years. Consider the other 'wild' primarch: the Night Haunter; there is no description of him that doesn't hint at a number of severe personality disorders. The Lion's childhood was spent alone in the forests of a Chaos-tainted deathworld. No one comes out of that 'normal'.

 

The Lion's towering intellect allows him to instantly and perfectly assess complex, dynamic systems; however, he never truly learned how to interact with other humans. Fortunately, for most of his life, he had Luther to help him with that.

 

This was probably what disqualified him from the title of Warmaster. He had the tactical acumen and certainly the ambition, but Warmaster is a political post as well as military and someone who is effectively a social cripple would be completely out-of-place in that role. Moreover, he didn't even have enough social knowledge to even realize why he wouldn't have made a good Warmaster.

[Frater Uriah]

The Lion's not evil, or inhuman. He's just smart and calculating to a degree that he recognizes problems and makes choices that the rest of us wouldn't even want to acknowledge. It's why Nemiel's reaction to the Lion in "Fallen Angels" is so laughable to me in its naivete: your Primarch just told you that Horus' betrayal cannot have come without him having a number of moles, spies, and fifth columns to aid him throughout the Imperium. And then you lose faith when he asks for a second opinion on two men who could very well fall under that category?!?

 

Well, the Lion's certainly not human, he's a primarch. B)

 

Doesn't it seem strange, though, that a being as mighty as a primarch with a hyper-intelligent mind and hyper-acute senses, has difficulty reading people, even people with what the primarch's lessers describe as a 'forthright' nature? Even more telling, in that same scene in Fallen Angels, the Lion insists to the brother he's been fighting closely alongside for fifty years that "he's not a brigand", completely mis-interpreting Nemiel's point.

 

Horus, Sanguinius, they would have known if someone was being less than open. All the Lion had was his paranoia and his probability calculations on how likely it was they were being truthful.

 

There are numerous accounts in history of feral children' being found (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child) in nature and all of them suffered severely for their lack of human contact in their formative years. Consider the other 'wild' primarch: the Night Haunter; there is no description of him that doesn't hint at a number of severe personality disorders. The Lion's childhood was spent alone in the forests of a Chaos-tainted deathworld. No one comes out of that 'normal'.

 

The Lion's towering intellect allows him to instantly and perfectly assess complex, dynamic systems; however, he never truly learned how to interact with other humans. Fortunately, for most of his life, he had Luther to help him with that.

 

This was probably what disqualified him from the title of Warmaster. He had the tactical acumen and certainly the ambition, but Warmaster is a political post as well as military and someone who is effectively a social cripple would be completely out-of-place in that role. Moreover, he didn't even have enough social knowledge to even realize why he wouldn't have made a good Warmaster.

 

A very interesting position, and one that I quite agree with. The Lion was one of the Primarchs, along with Russ and the Night Haunter, who did not have any kind of 'human' upbringing: he fended for himself for an unknown period in the wilds of one of the most dangerous death worlds in the galaxy. Like Russ, he was found and 'socialised' later by the dominant culture of his homeworld (of course, unlike Jonson, Russ grew up with the concept of family, thanks to his pack, and it shows in his personal conduct and the character of his Chapter), but I agree that the Lion's lack of human upbringing and true empathy were likely major factors that caused the Emperor to pass him over for Warmaster. His instincts, so integral to him during his years of surviving in the wilds of Caliban to size up and destroy the Chaos beasts that plagued that world, were never were far from the surface: these instincts, coupled with his supremely analytical mind, were what made him 'the consummate general.' Fallen Angels also seems to allude that his upbringing also made him hate Caliban on a subconscious level: his methodical purge of the Great Beasts was logically progressed upon by the ultimate destruction of that world at his hand.

[Phoebus]

Well, the Lion's certainly not human, he's a primarch. ;)

Touche! :)

 

Doesn't it seem strange, though, that a being as mighty as a primarch with a hyper-intelligent mind and hyper-acute senses, has difficulty reading people, even people with what the primarch's lessers describe as a 'forthright' nature? Even more telling, in that same scene in Fallen Angels, the Lion insists to the brother he's been fighting closely alongside for fifty years that "he's not a brigand", completely mis-interpreting Nemiel's point.

Actually, I would offer that it's not the Lion that has problems reading people; it's Nemiel that has problems reading Primarchs (and really making sensical decisions in general--see his boneheaded idea to assassinate the master of a galactic empire as a means of somehow preserving Caliban... but I digress). What does a "forthright nature" mean to the Lion when four of the eighteen most powerful beings in the Galaxy just broke their vows?

 

Ironically, here are Nemiel's thoughts just minutes before he gasps at Jonson's "inability to read people":

"Kulik acted as though Jonson was as much of a danger as Horus - and why not, Nemiel thought? Four Legions had already cast off their ties to the Emperor, and the entire Segmentum was coming apart at the seams. Everyone's motives were suspect. The realisation left him cold."

 

Emphasis added mine. Given this, I think that we can safely dismiss Nemiel's wild fears about his Primarch, and probably focus more on the consistency of writing.

 

Furthermore, this line of argument, which has become very popular, I might add, ignores a very basic fact: the Lion asks Nemiel's opinion after he had already made up his mind. He does so after he releases Governor Kulik to maintain command of his troops, and after he allows Archoi access to his ships to effect repairs and re-supply efforts. Nemiel is just looked to for a second opinion, little more than a conversation.

 

Also, I don't think that the Lion misinterpreted Nemiel. Quite the opposite, in fact. If he hadn't thought it, he wouldn't have brought it up that way. He simply would have made his point.

 

Horus, Sanguinius, they would have known if someone was being less than open.

Rogal Dorn damn near beat Nathaniel Garro unconscious because he couldn't tell that he was telling the truth; the Lion failed to pick up Archoi. No one is perfect all the time.

 

On the other hand, though, the Lion was able to tell both Luther and Zahariel were being less than open in "Descent of Angels". That's not intended as one-upsmanship, but it does illustrate that the Lion's faculties are hardly lacking. Rather, I think with Archoi and Governor Kulik he was dealing with hitherto untroden ground: traitors and potential traitors involved with a galactic rebellion.

 

EDIT:

Speaking of not being perfect, I wanted to add this. The Lion showing relief because a trusted lieutenant shared his views (mind you, this after he made his decision and before he sought his opinion) is hardly out of place where Primarchs are concerned. Horus has FOUR subordinates who are meant to advise him and provide him with different points of view. Does that make Horus FOUR times as distant as the Lion? Lorgar also had two trusted lieutenants to whom he turned for advice--Erebus and Kor-Phaeron. I'd be willing to bet that most of the Primarchs have someone they share their thoughts with or bounce ideas off of. Nemiel's probably not used to BEING that guy.

 

Ironically, I've used Night Haunter and Russ as points for other, somewhat unrelated events. :)

 

That having been said, I don't think the Lion is unable to relate with humans. I think a more accurate assessment also doubles as a prevalent theme in the Horus Heresy novels thus far: humans, even Astartes, can't relate with Primarchs. Loken, Garro, Nemiel, Tarvitz, and a host of other experienced, galaxy-traveled killers are unable to focus all their faculties when dealing with Primarchs. They often think of them as being godlike, and they are evidently psychologically hampered in their interactions with them.

 

Moving on.

 

Horus was Warmaster for one main reason: he was the first found, and he had absolutely no deficiencies of the sort that Curze, Angron, and others would later demonstrate. Replacing him, even when Primarchs like Dorn, Guilliman or Sanguinius were found would have been an utterly terrible move: you'd be throwing away experience, firing someone in essence, to replace him with someone who at best was their equal in talent--but not in terms of service record.

 

But the Lion, far from being socially inept, recognized the dynamic of the situation. With Horus going Traitor, the playing field was leveled again. Two, maybe three, Primarchs could be considered his match in terms of military excellence, and the two who had either more victories or more worlds captured also had been around for decades longer than he had. With the support of another Primarch and the laurel of devising Horus' defeat, he would have negated all those advantages they had against him.

 

That's not social ineptness; it's quite the opposite. It's social awareness of the highest order, the kind that allows you to become a political animal.

 

BUT, all the above comes with the following: it's just my opinion at the end of the day. :)

 

Cheers,

P.

[chaplain belisarius]

wow! im away for a bit and this thread gets incredibly interesting! thanks for the insight guys! :)

[Trel]

You make excellent points, Phoebus, but I think you over-estimate the Lion's social abilities.

 

The Lion always (whether he realized it or not) relied on Luther to act as his voice. Luther was the one man who had the charisma to be able to convince others of the Lion's plans and still have enough intelligence to be able to understand the Lion and translate the motives of others into forms that the Lion could grasp.

 

I think the reason the Lion rejected Luther was because of his towering ambition. How could the Lion elevate his rank in the Imperium if he needed a mere human to help him gain concensus of a bunch of squabbling knightly orders on a backwater world? The seasoned politicians on Terra would surely eat him alive if they realized this weakness.

 

Honestly, if the Lion could understand people so well, don't you think he would have realized the downsides of the festering sense of rejection that would inevitably take hold in those brothers he banished? Did he think that Marines who were questioning their own worth were the right people to train all the Legion's new members?

 

We teasingly say that Perturabo was autistic and we don't think twice about Olympia rebelling under the banner of Perturabo's father figure, yet the exact same thing happened to the Lion. We say that Perturabo understood logic, not people.

 

The books make a deal of Luther's feelings of having his own achievements over-shadowed by the Lion, but similarly the Lion must have felt that his own accomplishments were diluted by having to share them with Luther. (And it's not inconceivable to think that, on some level, the Lion actually felt threatened by Luther in the Freudian sense: that the Lion would not truly be himself until he could overthrow his father-figure.)

 

Horus was appointed Warmaster after all primarchs had been accounted for. By that time the Emperor and the Imperium would have had a chance to see all the primarchs in action. Horus was appointed not because he was the first-found favorite, but because he was the best. He was as strategically sound as the Lion, Dorn, or Perturabo. He had more political savvy than any of them. He had the logistical ability of Guilliman. He was also, however, as beloved as Sanguinius.

 

Simply put, people wanted to follow Horus, they had to be convinced to follow the Lion. Luther was the one to do the convincing. That made Horus the ideal Warmaster. Speaking bluntly, the Lion was no more qualified to be Warmaster than Angron. :)

[minionboy]

He was an indecisive traitor who hedged his bets during the Heresy. He isn't fit for his station and Luthor is the true savior of the chapter, sacrificing himself and his men to take him down.

 

Or at least, that's what I believe. :)

[Brother Degas]

I agree Trel, theres a difference between being socially adept (i.e. a people person) and being able to analyse a situation and extrapolate to a conclusion. The lion seems like a political animal because he could analyse the situation and react but lacked the pure charisma/social ability needed to be warmaster

[Phoebus]

The Lion always (whether he realized it or not) relied on Luther to act as his voice. Luther was the one man who had the charisma to be able to convince others of the Lion's plans and still have enough intelligence to be able to understand the Lion and translate the motives of others into forms that the Lion could grasp.

Rather, the Lion simply possessed enough humility to maintain the chain of command that the people of Caliban were used to. Remember, Luther was a higher-ranking knight through most of their life together. Nor is this without precedent. See below.

 

I think the reason the Lion rejected Luther was because of his towering ambition.

There is no evidence for this; on the contrary, it's indicated that the Lion suspected Luther of complicity in the attempted assassination and Zahariel of deceit from the get-go... and even Zahariel thinks that's the case.

 

How could the Lion elevate his rank in the Imperium if he needed a mere human to help him gain concensus of a bunch of squabbling knightly orders on a backwater world? The seasoned politicians on Terra would surely eat him alive if they realized this weakness.

As I said, this is not without precedent. Roboute Guilliman served under a mortal king, his adopted father, until that man was murdered. Leman Russ had a whole Great Company whose core was a cadre of his lieutenants and warlords from Fenris. Lorgar had Kor-Phaeron, his adopted father. None of these individuals suffered for their ties. I think we're just inventing a problem here, as opposed to referring to an existing one.

 

Honestly, if the Lion could understand people so well, don't you think he would have realized the downsides of the festering sense of rejection that would inevitably take hold in those brothers he banished? Did he think that Marines who were questioning their own worth were the right people to train all the Legion's new members?

I'll do you one better.

 

The Lion knew that making Luther's near-betrayal a public matter would devastate his Legion's morale--given that a significant percentage were Caliban-born. Based on the fact that Luther DIDN'T carry out his betrayal--and thus exhibited remorse--the Lion took the only course of action he could, which was exile. The assumption being that Luther would carry out his duties loyally... which, ironically enough, he DID until factors the Lion didn't calculate on changed the entire paradigm. Luther not only recruited record numbers of people, he successfully kept up the morale of the five hundred or so Astartes (out of a Legion of over 50,000) for decades. How's that for reading people?

 

The books make a deal of Luther's feelings of having his own achievements over-shadowed by the Lion, but similarly the Lion must have felt that his own accomplishments were diluted by having to share them with Luther. (And it's not inconceivable to think that, on some level, the Lion actually felt threatened by Luther in the Freudian sense: that the Lion would not truly be himself until he could overthrow his father-figure.)

The fact that Luther felt over-shadowed because of the Lion receiving the credit to begin with dismisses the idea that the Lion's ego was being threatened.

 

Horus was appointed Warmaster after all primarchs had been accounted for. By that time the Emperor and the Imperium would have had a chance to see all the primarchs in action. Horus was appointed not because he was the first-found favorite, but because he was the best. He was as strategically sound as the Lion, Dorn, or Perturabo. He had more political savvy than any of them. He had the logistical ability of Guilliman. He was also, however, as beloved as Sanguinius.

I didn't say anything different, though. :tu:

 

I simply added to this, by stating something equally correct: unless the Emperor saw someone better come along, he would not replace Horus because that would entail slighting someone to no benefit, while losing out on superior experience.

 

Simply put, people wanted to follow Horus, they had to be convinced to follow the Lion.

But there's no indication of this, is there? That Luther had to negotiate with pre-existing power froups for the Great Crusade to come about does not speak to the Lion's lack of charisma. Fulgrim, too, had to work his way up the ranks before he was finally entrusted with direction of the planet--and I'll point out that the problems he was facing were industrial and environmental. Not a war against monsters, which would require considerably more convincing to pull off. :(

 

Let's look at how those Primarchs who ended up ruling their whole world attained that status:

- Jaghatai Khan, Lorgar, and Konrad Curze effectively earned their thrones through violence.

- Corax, Vulkan, and Sanguinius had very small realms by comparison.

- Roboute Guilliman and Rogal Dorn inherited their empires from a ruling family they were adopted by.

 

Only Fulgrim, Magnus, Mortarion and the Lion "earned their stripes". Fulgrim and Magnus did so in times of peace. Little detail is given regarding Mortarion's life (compared to the Lion's). The Lion had to "convince" people to embark on a highly aggressive, highly dangerous crusade that would last years and see many of them die. That's a bit different from Fulgrim's challenge, which was to convince the rest of his people (after he had attained sufficient rank) that his recycling technology/processes were more efficient than the stuff that everyone already knew didn't work.

 

My point? No Primarch rose to rule a planet on the basis of hic charisma. Not Horus, not Lorgar (whose followers had to kill millions for his religious dogma to reign supreme), not anybody.

 

Ultimately, though, I do realize that this is all a matter of opinion. I hope I'm not coming off too strong, or dismissive. At the end of the day, I'm just interpreting an author's words, same as you. :P

 

BTW, apologies for the excessive quote blocks!

 

Cheers,

P.

[NightrawenII]

How could the Lion elevate his rank in the Imperium if he needed a mere human to help him gain concensus of a bunch of squabbling knightly orders on a backwater world? The seasoned politicians on Terra would surely eat him alive if they realized this weakness.

As I said, this is not without precedent. Roboute Guilliman served under a mortal king, his adopted father, until that man was murdered. Leman Russ had a whole Great Company whose core was a cadre of his lieutenants and warlords from Fenris. Lorgar had Kor-Phaeron, his adopted father. None of these individuals suffered for their ties. I think we're just inventing a problem here, as opposed to referring to an existing one.

Ehm, Phoebus, your logical conclusions are good, but this one fall apart.

Guilliman was not relying on his father anymore in the Great Crusade.

Leman's lieutenants and warlords from Fenris were subordinates of the King of Russ.

 

So technicaly, the Lion was the only Primarch*, who was sharing a leadership with a mere human.

 

*and maybe Lorgar.

 

The books make a deal of Luther's feelings of having his own achievements over-shadowed by the Lion, but similarly the Lion must have felt that his own accomplishments were diluted by having to share them with Luther. (And it's not inconceivable to think that, on some level, the Lion actually felt threatened by Luther in the Freudian sense: that the Lion would not truly be himself until he could overthrow his father-figure.)

The fact that Luther felt over-shadowed because of the Lion receiving the credit to begin with dismisses the idea that the Lion's ego was being threatened.

Why not? Lion shared glory with Luther and somewhere very deep he felt, that his achievement would be impossible without Luther. Of course it's going to bother him.

 

The Lion had to "convince" people to embark on a highly aggressive, highly dangerous crusade that would last years and see many of them die. That's a bit different from Fulgrim's challenge, which was to convince the rest of his people (after he had attained sufficient rank) that his recycling technology/processes were more efficient than the stuff that everyone already knew didn't work.

Yeah, unless the Luther was the guy, who did the "convincing", right. :)

[Phoebus]

Ehm, Phoebus, your logical conclusions are good, but this one fall apart.

Guilliman was not relying on his father anymore in the Great Crusade.

Leman's lieutenants and warlords from Fenris were subordinates of the King of Russ.

 

So technicaly, the Lion was the only Primarch*, who was sharing a leadership with a mere human.

 

*and maybe Lorgar.

Don't get me wrong, I just wanted to cover on the Primarch-mortal relationships that played a role in general (that we know about). I aimed to close out with the one (besides the Lion's) that extended into the Great Crusade. I should have been clearer, though. :D

 

Having said that, the point stands. No one from Terra spoke a word about either Kor-Phaeron (whose influence on Lorgar was far greater than Luther's ever was on the Lion), nor is there indication that the Lion himself received criticism for raising Luther. Nor, for that matter, was there any criticism of other Chapter Masters from the order being raised to significant rank and station within the extant Legion.

 

Why not? Lion shared glory with Luther and somewhere very deep he felt, that his achievement would be impossible without Luther. Of course it's going to bother him.

I'm just going off of the evidence given. Luther felt envy specifically because Jonson got the credit. He literally spells out his grief to Zahariel in "Descent of Angels". If there was even something approaching a sharing of credit (which conceivably could have led to the Lion being bummed, though I doubt it), I don't think this would even have been an issue. People were so taken with the Lion's superhuman qualities, though, that poor Luther was left in the dust.

 

This, in turn, brings us right back to the point about charisma. No real timeline is given as to how long the Lion spent alone on Caliban. Given the acclamation and aplomb the Lion received following it , I would posit his need for Luther was very early on his life, when he was still learning the niceties of society. From "Descent of Angels":

 

"As might be expected, given his abilities, Jonson rapidly ascended through the Order’s ranks. His achievements were legendary, and

coupled with a natural talent to inspire intense devotion in others, his presence soon led to a marked upsurge in recruitment. As the number of knights within the Order increased, and new fortress monasteries were built to accommodate them, Jonson and his supporters started to press for a crusade to be mounted against the great beasts.

...

This was no small undertaking, considering that the knights of Caliban had always been inclined to feud and squabble amongst themselves. Combined with this, the plan would also need the support of the wider nobility and the common population. In general, though, we are not the kind to easily follow after leaders on Caliban: each man has too high a regard for his own opinions."

 

So we're not talking about a lack of charisma. We're talking about a pre-existing social situation*, complicated by great distances, the difficulty of communities coming together, the danger the task itself posed, etc.

 

The main point being is this: during the Lion's first years within the Order, potentially his formative years**, he had trouble getting all the knightly orders to band together to undertake the most ambitious task anyone had every proposed on their planet. As shown above, this was in turn complicated by Calibanite intransigency. AFTER the Great Crusade, though, the Lion seems to have come into his own. He becomes Grand Master, he is hailed throughout Caliban, and Luther is supplanted by his cult of personality. Hence, Luther's resentment.

 

* Again, is the Lion unique in this? No. Guilliman, for his part, had to resort to violence to deal with rivals and foreign tribes. Charisma alone didn't earn him Ultramar.

 

** From "Fallen Angels":

 

"We'd come upon a stream at midday,' he continued. 'A prime spot for predators, but our water bottles were empty, so we decided to take the risk. I was standing watch, sitting in the saddle with my pistol ready. And the next thing any of us knew, there was this little boy standing with us. He'd walked right out of the woods into our midst, as silent as you please."

 

Again, we know Primarchs grow very fast. Vulkan, for instance, was fully developed and had exceeded the Men of Nocturne in prowess, knowledge, and intelligence... all within three years. So it's far more likely that the Lion simply had not come fully unto his own yet (not in terms of rank within the Order, and not in terms of development) when Luther's aid was needed to convince the other orders.

 

Yeah, unless the Luther was the guy, who did the "convincing", right. B)

See my above references. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing Luther's ability; he is, after all, the man who might have united Caliban had it not been for the Lion. I'm just stating that the Lion was still young, that he was not even the highest ranking member of the Order, and that he was calling for hitherto unknown--and unaccepted--levels of cooperation for the most dangerous war ever. By contrast, Luther was well-known, a famous hero, and an established, high-ranking member of the Order.

 

Good discussion! ;)

 

Cheers,

P.

[Ardune]

Actually, I thought Mike Lee made the point obvious that the reason Luthor was sent away was that the Lion needed someone to save Caliban. Luthor might have thought he was banished due to his own guilt but the Lion made his actions based on his longer view. I liken it to El'Jonson playing his long-running game of chess without informing any of the pieces of their part in the larger game.

 

While we can make our own interpretations of this event, I thought that Lee actually made enough comments about the reasons behind the Lord Cypher's appointment to make this this view obvious. Not to mention the Lion made his decision after fighting a great chaos beast (like was on Caliban) and then summarily sent all the key people responsible for it's defeat back home along with his chief lieutenant.

 

As far as the social abilities of the Lion go, I'm afraid Mike Lee made it rather apparent that his interpretation of the Lion was as a super brilliant and logical mind that constantly had troubles when it came to the illogical behavior of people. He misread pretty much every traitor and then turned half of his own legion on himself by not resolving the anguish Luthor felt (whether or not he even perceived it) of being stuck at home. It's almost as if he was playing his galactic game of chess and never quite figured out why the pieces occasionally acted erratically.

 

The Lion is possibly the most brilliant primarch, but he is also one of the most flawed. Personally, I thought this was made a little too clear in the most previous book but I appreciate the character definition it provided just the same. I like that Fallen Angels at least provided a picture of the character of the Primarch and legion that I felt was missing from Descent.