what the odds SW vs DE

[Skalver]

A lot of people overlook that Haemonculi don't have the Fleet rule. So when you join them to another unit you are giving up Fleet to gain a pain token. The army is tougher but it is also a lot slower if you go with Haemonculi spam.

 

My gut instinct from reading the dex is that wracks are the best value unit in it. T4, 2 attacks, 4+ poisoned weapons, and they start with a pain token so have FNP from the start. They are basically 10 point space marines and I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of builds revolving around them. They don't get any ranged weapons as standard, though the 10 point liquifier guns you can give them (up to 2 per squad) being a S4 APd6 Template Assault weapon are pretty nasty.

 

P.S. Torin, the forum rules say no text or leet speak. You really should edit the OP into some form of real english.

[Grey Mage]

A lot of people overlook that Haemonculi don't have the Fleet rule. So when you join them to another unit you are giving up Fleet to gain a pain token. The army is tougher but it is also a lot slower if you go with Haemonculi spam.

 

My gut instinct from reading the dex is that wracks are the best value unit in it. T4, 2 attacks, 4+ poisoned weapons, and they start with a pain token so have FNP from the start. They are basically 10 point space marines and I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of builds revolving around them. They don't get any ranged weapons as standard, though the 10 point liquifier guns you can give them (up to 2 per squad) being a S4 APd6 Template Assault weapon are pretty nasty.

 

P.S. Torin, the forum rules say no text or leet speak. You really should edit the OP into some form of real english.

Yes and no- The Haemonculi can stay in the raider and the pain token can go with the squad. He stays relatively safe, they get fleet and FNP... if they need the extra movement.

[wolfpack]

Well this old wolf isn't into the math hammer...nor do I much care for 'what you could do' tactica...I know this...they show their scrawny little arses on my battlefield and I'll wring their skinny necks after I pick their carcasses off the ground where they lie after the hail storm of death my lads visit upon them...nuff said

[Niiai]

I have been gawking around in the DE codex and 3 things are apparent to me:

 

1: They look realy good and it is a good codex witch a lott of diferent archtypes. Thumbs up.

 

2: It is now harder to Dark Lance spam then with the old one. Not 2 lances per troop choise hurts. Yes overall they have become more interesting, they have LOADS of way to take out tanks but in the end there are not 3 dark lances per unit you show up with.

 

3: The DA transports absolutli HATE Missile Launchers.

 

And who have the moast missile lauchers in the metagame? Oh...look...Space Wolves do. at leats if you take the longs fangs. A whirldwind is good as well, but it will probably die to a lott of lances. but 6 marines in cover? Colour me happy.

 

EDIT: Oh yes! If you are a fan of the thunder wolf cavalary they create a huge bubbel of charge range. Good luck all skimmers.

[Skalver]

I could see Necrotoxin missiles being quite nasty vs TWC. Large blast, poisoned(2+) pinning weapons could be quite nasty against LD 8 TWC. Imagine your joy at seeing 4 of them landed on top of your TWC pack at once.

[Grey Mage]

Heh, god bless that 3+ armor save then, hopefully the AP on it isnt that great.....

 

I really do need to just go get a copy of this codex.

 

Hrmm. Anyones thoughts on Bjorn with this new enemy afoot?

[Ulriks Minion]

Just remember to look both ways before crossing the road, you dont want to get hit by a truck full of fail B) also learn from your mistakes maybe rematch if you lose

[clanfield]

as ever the trusty bolter is key no saves there then and some nice wolf guard with power wepons as they wound on a 3+ are a good choice as per the raiders even a bolter can glance so again not too worried there ,helions have a nice snatch ablity so watch out for that and im liking heavy bolters as a usfull heavy wepon

[Skalver]

Heh, god bless that 3+ armor save then, hopefully the AP on it isnt that great.....

 

I really do need to just go get a copy of this codex.

 

Hrmm. Anyones thoughts on Bjorn with this new enemy afoot?

 

They are AP 5 but they are kinda like bloodstrike missiles, you get 4 one shot missiles on Void Ravens and Razorwings and so you can land 4 seperate large blasts on a squad in a single turn which could quite easily cause 2-3 wounds and an associated 2-3 pinning tests.

 

There are also implosion missiles, AP 2, blast, anyone hit takes a wounds test or suffers instant death (invul / cover saves are allowed). They are quite expensive though but you could see how a couple of them would make a rather nasty dent in a TWC pack but at 30 points per shot I don't think you will see large amounts of them in most armies.

 

Dreadnoughts will depend a bit on your opponent. At S3 most infantry will obviously struggle to damage dreadnoughts but wyches can be given haywire grenades for 2 points each and all those fast vehicles shouldn't have much trouble picking out rear armor for their S9 shots. Dreadnoughts I suspect will either demolish units that have no way to harm them or die very quickly to those that can.

[MonSTeR]

I've not played the new DE yet, but i found fighting fire with fire has been useful agaisnt the old DE. I only had one opponent with the old ones, but I've never lost (playing against them since 3rd Ed.) only won or drawn.

 

I pony up on landspeeders for mobility and tank hunting firepower. Yes you have to get close but you can do a lot of damage to both the DE mobility but more importantly their battle plan.

 

I'm also thinking (and I'm math hammering here) that the 2x twin linked AC dreadnaught if adequately protected would be useful. Thoughts brothers?

[Skalver]

I suspect the main change worth making if you were building an army just to vs Dark Eldar would be to max out the size of your squads as much as possible. The last thing you want is a lot of small squads that can be easily harvested for pain tokens. Plasma weapons and Assault cannons would also be the order of business I suspect, they are quite capable vs AV10 and will instant death Archons, Hekatrixes and most of the Beastmaster pets. Rune Priests with Tempest's Wrath will also be really nasty as it affects all enemy skimmers. You will be hitting last all the time anyway so don't feel bad about taking Power Fists and Thunder Hammers though they are probably overkill to be honest, frost blades will also work very well. Lone Wolves and Fenrisian Wolves I would probably avoid, I suspect they would be too tempting as targets to get some quick pain tokens going. That may be interesting with the Lone Wolves however.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Heads up. Raiders may have junk armor, but they have gained a little survivability outside of moving flat out. They can now have 5+ invul with flickerfield. Night shields which will you guys really will not appreciate. It reduces fire range of the unit wishing to fire at the Raider by 6".

 

Stationary Bolters= 18"

Rapid fire Bolters= 6"

Multimelta= 18", 9" for additional dice.

Meltagun= 6", 3" for additional dice.

 

Really won't be a problem for Long Fangs or other weapons with a range of 48" because Dark Lances only reach 36" But beware.

[lothbrok]

i just played them today and to be honest i didnt find any one unit that was unbelivabily powerful. however the jetbike blade things are a major pain they pretty much ripped apart two grey hunter units. i actually found counter-assualt to be a viable tactic against these guys,just rush some grey hunters or even fen wolves up and they die fairly quickly.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Flicker field toughness of a Raider.

 

ML shooting at bs4.

to hit 4/6 to glance 1/6 to destroy 1/6 fail save 4/6 = 16/1296

to hit 4/6 to glance 4/6 to destroy 3/6 fail save 4/6 = 192/1296

= 208/1296 or 16.05%

 

against AV 10 without open top.

4/6 x 4/6 x 2/6 = 32/216 or 14.81%

 

Even with the Ff, the open-top means it is going down B)

[SJumppanen]

Heh, god bless that 3+ armor save then, hopefully the AP on it isnt that great.....

 

I really do need to just go get a copy of this codex.

 

Hrmm. Anyones thoughts on Bjorn with this new enemy afoot?

 

They are AP 5 but they are kinda like bloodstrike missiles, you get 4 one shot missiles on Void Ravens and Razorwings and so you can land 4 seperate large blasts on a squad in a single turn which could quite easily cause 2-3 wounds and an associated 2-3 pinning tests.

 

I don't think so! Unless codex says so separately then you won't take more than 1 ld. test unless ofcource those missiles were all fired from separate vehicles. Or have i and everyone else i know played wrong with snipers and i should have rolled for pinning for every wound caused?

[Spacefrisian]

If a pinning test is made by a weapon that causes it you make that test immediatly, so yes you can take multiple pinningtests a turn if those shots come from multiple units.

[Grey Mage]

Heh, god bless that 3+ armor save then, hopefully the AP on it isnt that great.....

 

I really do need to just go get a copy of this codex.

 

Hrmm. Anyones thoughts on Bjorn with this new enemy afoot?

 

They are AP 5 but they are kinda like bloodstrike missiles, you get 4 one shot missiles on Void Ravens and Razorwings and so you can land 4 seperate large blasts on a squad in a single turn which could quite easily cause 2-3 wounds and an associated 2-3 pinning tests.

 

I don't think so! Unless codex says so separately then you won't take more than 1 ld. test unless ofcource those missiles were all fired from separate vehicles. Or have i and everyone else i know played wrong with snipers and i should have rolled for pinning for every wound caused?

No, you played it properly. This was all hashed out over a year ago, and was put up by a Tau player with a really bad comprehension of the english language.

[SJumppanen]

If a pinning test is made by a weapon that causes it you make that test immediatly, so yes you can take multiple pinningtests a turn if those shots come from multiple units.

 

This i know, that multiple units part that is.

[Skalver]

The wording in the rulebook is "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon it must immediately take a pinning test". It even says later "As long as the tests are passed, a unit may be called on to take multiple pinning tests in a single turn".

 

The wording is specific, "wounds from a pinning weapon" not "wounds from a unit of which one or more is pinning" or "pinning wounds from an individual unit". This would suggest an interpretation that each Necrotoxin Missile, being a distinct weapon, can cause up to one pinning test per turn (i.e. each missile would cause one pinning test if it caused one or more wounds).

 

The later clarification that multiple pinning tests can be caused in a single turn would further support this. Unless someone has something definitive to state the contrary I would certainly expect (and allow) scout snipers for example to cause one pinning test per wound caused.

 

(Interestingly I went to the GW site to check if any of the FAQs mentioned this and noticed that all the 40k FAQs have been pulled down, maybe there is a new round of FAQs on the cards?).

[Spacefrisian]

These weird echos about pinning all the time, i wonder where they come from.

[Skalver]

These weird echos about pinning all the time, i wonder where they come from.

 

Edit: I bit the bullet and resurrected the old pinning thread at http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...nning&st=50 so as not to derail this thread.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think that of the top three current armies (BA, IG & SW) it's looking like dark eldar will matchup best against SW. Massed poison weapon focus fire on TWC will be brutal. Lance will do fine versus rhinos and razorback spam. Wyches can tarpit your best melee units - terminators, e.g., TWC and Thunder Lords. Incubi can quickly cut through your Grey Hunters. Dark eldar is the fastest and most mobile army. Sure the skimmers are paper airplanes but that has always been the case - nothing new or game breaking here. It will come down to game play and to me it looks like dark eldar have all the right tools to match up well versus SW. I'm not by any means saying dark eldar will easily smash SW but I don't think they should be lightly regarded as easy to beat.

 

0b :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think that of the top three current armies (BA, IG & SW) it's looking like dark eldar will matchup best against SW. Massed poison weapon focus fire on TWC will be brutal. Lance will do fine versus rhinos and razorback spam. Wyches can tarpit your best melee units - terminators, e.g., TWC and Thunder Lords. Incubi can quickly cut through your Grey Hunters. Dark eldar is the fastest and most mobile army. Sure the skimmers are paper airplanes but that has always been the case - nothing new or game breaking here. It will come down to game play and to me it looks like dark eldar have all the right tools to match up well versus SW. I'm not by any means saying dark eldar will easily smash SW but I don't think they should be lightly regarded as easy to beat.

 

0b :thanks:

 

I agree with that.

It will be interesting to see if it comes to pass.

 

I think that all Marines that get their transport taken out, and don't have a Heavy Weapon, will suffer. So not just Greys but also Crusaders and Blood assault Marines without JPs.

 

They have a fair bit of stuff that has a long assault range.

 

Many infantry are fleet, so 6+d6+6 = 13-18"

 

Raiders are open-topped

12" vehicle move. 2" deploy and 1" [from any point of the Raider] then assault 6" = 21"

Add d6" if the unit is fleet = 22-27"

 

Jump infantry are fleet and so cover ground much like Beasts and Cavalry.

12+d6+6 = 19-24"

 

They have beasts for 19-24"

 

Reaver jetbikes can turbo-boost 36" and inflict attacks on one unit they fly over.

 

They certainly have a long reach for assaults, and I feel this will expose Greys and other non-HW Marines. Fangs will be essential in redressing that, and so make an obvious choice for the Deldar to take out.

 

Which is always usable as a lure for a canny Wolf player.... ;)

 

+++

 

The Liquifier is a flamer with d6 ap. Half the time MEq won't be getting a save :eek

It's hard to counter-attack when you have few guys left after they volley and charge you....

[Grimtooth]

Easy counter to DE which came upon be against an Eldar player yesterday.

 

This Eldar player tosses two squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents and then three squads of Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents. He flat outs everything forward at max speed. He sits the next turn of shooting out, counting on his cover save to protect everything. He deploys his Fire Dragons, uses Bright Lances to open up transports and then uses the Fire Dragons to decimate the exposed passengers. Anything leftover is shot at by shuriken cannons.

 

Now my counter to this was to castle into a corner and obscure my three Rhinos and actually kept them in obscured cover for two turns. I was able to immobilize two Wave Serpents even with their Flat Out but that was just a bonus. The real deal is waiting for their Flat Out cover save to fade, weather the anti-armor fire, and then counter fire hard.

 

In this situation, your dedicated fires goes to their dedicated targets. Long Fangs split fire to down more Wave Serpents while GH had moved and disembarked to deliver rapid fire and special weapon goodness to disembarked Fire Dragons. It was a devastaing game for the Eldar player with one Wave Serpent and Eldrad left on the board with me holding two of three objectives.

 

Now to the thread at hand, DE players for the most part will be doing the same. They will be relying heavily on the Flat Out cover save so they can assault from the Raiders the following turn after opening up transports with Dark Lances. So throw a wrench anywhere in that plan, such as preventing Rhinos from being blown up, and your return fire and counter attack after the Flat Out save fades is devastating.

 

Now with careful positioning and use of smoke, you end up extending the lives of your transports via a cover save much longer then their Flat Out cover save. You can make the waiting game for him more costly then it would be for you.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Now to the thread at hand, DE players for the most part will be doing the same. They will be relying heavily on the Flat Out cover save so they can assault from the Raiders the following turn after opening up transports with Dark Lances. So throw a wrench anywhere in that plan, such as preventing Rhinos from being blown up, and your return fire and counter attack after the Flat Out save fades is devastating.

 

Now with careful positioning and use of smoke, you end up extending the lives of your transports via a cover save much longer then their Flat Out cover save. You can make the waiting game for him more costly then it would be for you.

 

Storm caller will help. A Rune Priest within a Rhino has a large area of influence. 5+ isn't locked in, but still solid, especially if you can get it to cover more than one unit. It might even be worth not shooting with LL, if you can cover 3 or so units with SC.