what the odds SW vs DE

[bulley]

Theres a couple of things.

 

One is they are a complete glass hammer army.

Second is that they are by no means point and click which means though good players will be great with them, average players will be below par with them.

 

I am "worried" in a sense that my mech army will have to deal with a ton of dark lances, which will be standard in any DE army (even fluff monkeys will find it hard to avoid having 4 or 5 - where as I see a lot of fluffy marine armies w/out real anti tank - which is odd). But then again, careful positioning, chaining cover saves or just plain reserving can see me bring to bear a lot of fire to keep them down.

 

End of the day, they will drop quite easy, especially to marine mass fire, for all their "powerful tricks" clever play and tactics will still prevail.

[Grimtooth]

Now to the thread at hand, DE players for the most part will be doing the same. They will be relying heavily on the Flat Out cover save so they can assault from the Raiders the following turn after opening up transports with Dark Lances. So throw a wrench anywhere in that plan, such as preventing Rhinos from being blown up, and your return fire and counter attack after the Flat Out save fades is devastating.

 

Now with careful positioning and use of smoke, you end up extending the lives of your transports via a cover save much longer then their Flat Out cover save. You can make the waiting game for him more costly then it would be for you.

 

Storm caller will help. A Rune Priest within a Rhino has a large area of influence. 5+ isn't locked in, but still solid, especially if you can get it to cover more than one unit. It might even be worth not shooting with LL, if you can cover 3 or so units with SC.

 

No thanks on SC for me. If anything it is Tempest Wrath and Living Lightning for me.

 

You should have no problem deploying your vehicles obscured, giving them a 4+. If needed you can keep them obscured by placing one Rhino in front of another and popping smoke on it. The Rhino in front obscures the one behind and gives itself a cover save via smoke. You probably wont have to do that more then once because the DE should be within range by then for counter.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Theres a couple of things.

 

One is they are a complete glass hammer army.

Second is that they are by no means point and click which means though good players will be great with them, average players will be below par with them.

 

I am "worried" in a sense that my mech army will have to deal with a ton of dark lances, which will be standard in any DE army (even fluff monkeys will find it hard to avoid having 4 or 5 - where as I see a lot of fluffy marine armies w/out real anti tank - which is odd). But then again, careful positioning, chaining cover saves or just plain reserving can see me bring to bear a lot of fire to keep them down.

 

End of the day, they will drop quite easy, especially to marine mass fire, for all their "powerful tricks" clever play and tactics will still prevail.

 

I agree with your second point. They will be harder to use than good old Marines, and so pros will excel and the rest will, shall we say, be learning a lot :P

 

Lances only affect Preds [a reason to swap for Dreads], Vindis and Raiders. I think the Pred platform will struggle even without Lances ~ unless you have Fast [a lá Bloods] they Deldar will get around to that more flimsy AV 11. Not Fast Vindis might also stuggle to get a meaningful shot off on them.

 

Deldar players would be quite glad of guys bringing Raiders, as they are expensive, carry an expensive unit and are able to be outmanoeuvred by those speedy skiffs.

 

No thanks on SC for me. If anything it is Tempest Wrath and Living Lightning for me.

 

You should have no problem deploying your vehicles obscured, giving them a 4+. If needed you can keep them obscured by placing one Rhino in front of another and popping smoke on it. The Rhino in front obscures the one behind and gives itself a cover save via smoke. You probably wont have to do that more then once because the DE should be within range by then for counter.

 

SC does not seem to be very popular amongst Wolves. You all love the killy stuff :lol: :lol:

 

Not trying to convert you or anything, but do you think leap-frog will work that well against them? Guard for sure, but Deldar will be zooming all over the place.

TW is certainly a good one for Deldar, Daemons, Tau and Bloods [though they don't have to take a Jumper army] but I think it is very specialised [talking about for tournaments all-comers lists]

SC should always be useful. That is what I think, anyway.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Remember that a reaver squadron flying over Long Fangs can strafe them with their bladevanes and cluster caltrops. This is going to force you to think a bit how to best deploy your army. You don't want to reserve your army as that's the worst thing to do versus dark eldar in general since they specialize in the Divide and Conquer tactic. I think you will need to circle your wagons figuratively speaking so every unit can support each other... Otherwise they can systematically destroy you.

 

0b

[Grimtooth]

Theres a couple of things.

 

One is they are a complete glass hammer army.

Second is that they are by no means point and click which means though good players will be great with them, average players will be below par with them.

 

I am "worried" in a sense that my mech army will have to deal with a ton of dark lances, which will be standard in any DE army (even fluff monkeys will find it hard to avoid having 4 or 5 - where as I see a lot of fluffy marine armies w/out real anti tank - which is odd). But then again, careful positioning, chaining cover saves or just plain reserving can see me bring to bear a lot of fire to keep them down.

 

End of the day, they will drop quite easy, especially to marine mass fire, for all their "powerful tricks" clever play and tactics will still prevail.

 

I agree with your second point. They will be harder to use than good old Marines, and so pros will excel and the rest will, shall we say, be learning a lot :P

 

Lances only affect Preds [a reason to swap for Dreads], Vindis and Raiders. I think the Pred platform will struggle even without Lances ~ unless you have Fast [a lá Bloods] they Deldar will get around to that more flimsy AV 11. Not Fast Vindis might also stuggle to get a meaningful shot off on them.

 

Deldar players would be quite glad of guys bringing Raiders, as they are expensive, carry an expensive unit and are able to be outmanoeuvred by those speedy skiffs.

 

No thanks on SC for me. If anything it is Tempest Wrath and Living Lightning for me.

 

You should have no problem deploying your vehicles obscured, giving them a 4+. If needed you can keep them obscured by placing one Rhino in front of another and popping smoke on it. The Rhino in front obscures the one behind and gives itself a cover save via smoke. You probably wont have to do that more then once because the DE should be within range by then for counter.

 

SC does not seem to be very popular amongst Wolves. You all love the killy stuff :)

 

Not trying to convert you or anything, but do you think leap-frog will work that well against them? Guard for sure, but Deldar will be zooming all over the place.

TW is certainly a good one for Deldar, Daemons, Tau and Bloods [though they don't have to take a Jumper army] but I think it is very specialised [talking about for tournaments all-comers lists]

SC should always be useful. That is what I think, anyway.

 

It wont end up as a leap frog because the DE will be there. It is just swapping cover for the purpose of living through the Dar Lance spam to counter. And that is only, only if the DE player stalls on his Flat Out move. It gives you a second round of cover saves against the Dark Lances.

[Vorion]

I played a DE army this weekend. Three wyches in raiders and a couple warrior squads tooled out for CC. Took out a raider with living lightning and one with plasma rifles. Once they are on foot your bolters will make easy work of them. A LF pack with heavy bolters will make mince meat out of their transports and the infantry.

 

The units that did get into assault took out squads my massing attacks and having 3 or more speacial close combat weapons to get extra wounds or power weapon wounds. my GH squads still managed to hold them up for a couple turns even with all their tricks.

 

Overall they are like any other army, it depends on how they're played. I'd say expec to either win the first couple games or lose them while either the DE player or you tweak your armies to get things down pat

[Grimtooth]

Remember that a reaver squadron flying over Long Fangs can strafe them with their bladevanes and cluster caltrops. This is going to force you to think a bit how to best deploy your army. You don't want to reserve your army as that's the worst thing to do versus dark eldar in general since they specialize in the Divide and Conquer tactic. I think you will need to circle your wagons figuratively speaking so every unit can support each other... Otherwise they can systematically destroy you.

 

0b ;)

 

I have been thinking about this and what I have come up with is simple:

 

Deny them the move by deployment.

 

My tactics will be to castle to survive the Dark Lance attempt at an Alpha Strike. My army can be deployed so that the Reavers may be able to pass over the Long Fangs but not end their move without being within 1" of one of my models. So while it may be hard to prevent them from making the move, you can make it so that cannot legally end their move.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you castle up then your treads could be more exposed to their lances.

 

0b :drool:

[Grimtooth]

If you castle up then your treads could be more exposed to their lances.

 

0b :)

 

Castling does not necessarily mean you use your armor as your, "outer walls". Terrain and board edges are just if not more effective then using your own armor as your, 'outer wall". Even in the worse case scenario regarding terrain placement, you can give the Reavers a clear opening or two that will allow them to fly over your Long Fangs, but have to end their movement in terrain forcing a dangerous terrain test thus putting the decision on the DE player if he is willing to take that risk.

[Spacefrisian]

You would be suprised to see how easy youre castle thingy can be turned against you.

[Grimtooth]

You would be suprised to see how easy youre castle thingy can be turned against you.

 

Hi Captain Obvious, so nice to meet you.

 

I mean really. I am not proposing the end all tactical tactic of doom to defeat DE at every turn. I am proposing something that will give them pause in their attempt to Alpha Strike an army thus allowing you to make your move.

[Spacefrisian]

Yes mister Captain Obvious is here.

 

Alpha strike is a nice tool for DE but its not always needed, obviously with enough terrain and luck.

[Max_Dammit]

I hope its all in fun and game so keep it friendly :P

[Grimtooth]

I hope its all in fun and game so keep it friendly B)

 

Yea it is.

 

Think of it more of a Wolf Lord council talking about the DE threat.

[MaveriK]

against lance weapons of any kind... would a Land Raider Achilles be an option for an additional choice with Long Fangs in the heavy support slot?

[Theis]

I've been fortunate enough to get a couple games in against de recently. The caveat here being, against guys who are experimenting with their new de lists while they figure out what's effective and what's not. The list I have been running lately is a very shooty Logan lead wolfguard list. There are a lot of missiles, a couple of rune priests, two lone wolves, and some twolf cav. My local environment is very friendly, but with an emphasis on very competitive lists. In all fairness, I brought a much harder list than I should have. I have promised them all a generic chaos space marine list next time around as recompense.

 

I am looking forward to them getting some cut throat lists together.

 

My initial thoughts go like this, Tempest's Wrath is very effective. If it makes your opponent think twice about going near that portion of the board, it's done its job. If it kills something, and given that almost their entire army is subject to its effects, it's going to kill something, fantastic, but I use it, primarily, as an extra level of protection for my ranged elements. I also generally spend the extra fifty points on that rune priest so he can throw living lightning around too. His job is to hang back and help protect, and be one of, the ranged folks. Logan is generally back there to toss relentless around as needed also. Six inches short because of your night shields (or flicker fields haven't got those straight yet)? No problem, I can fix that.

 

Lone wolves, I run them with storm shields, are durable enough to live through a round of wyches assaulting them.

 

Thunderwolves do die to shooting more quickly, than I'm accustomed to, unless you fight folks who lug plasma weapons around, but once you get them into assault they're about like normal. I do tend to run them so I can play wound allocation games, and if they live long enough to get their attacks in, which they generally do, they're just as killy as they've ever been.

 

Their vehicles are fragile. Even tricked out, they're fragile, and as pricey as the de units are, there aren't going to be that many vehicles. I mean, we're not talking a guard artillery park here.

 

Dark Eldar are also not in the least way forgiving of mistakes. Space Wolves are. If your opponent makes a mistake, or they just have a moment of bad luck, you're very likely to be able to punish them for it, badly enough that they won't be able to recover from it. If you get to fire first, and can kill that critical one or two transports, or that dark lance platform, that's a deficit they'll find harder to recover from than we will.

 

Finally, just by way of comparison, a raider full of wyches costs, roughly, 250 points. How much does a rhino full of grey hunters run us? Mine go 180ish. That's meant solely as an illustration of the numbers we'll be facing.