DE Gimmick Lists!

[Grimtooth]

Arrrrrgh I just want to crush them all!!!

 

Look, I really don't remember any gimmick lists when the new Space Wolves dex came out. Can anyone? In reality, I am pretty sure most longtime SW players actually discouraged such lists when presented here by the bandwagoneers. But I am almost 100% sure that SW had zero gimmick lists at release.

 

Now everywhere I seem to look, nothing but gimmick lists for DE and I am tired of seeing them. Even moreso the lists that rely on a tweak of the codex and how it interacts with the core rulebook!! It almost seems that the bandwagoneers have taken over this codex, from the truly veteran DE players, and are just spewing trash left and right.

 

I watched two DE players this last weekend play. Both got crushed by Nids. I was talking with a guy while doing some painting and he as putting his DE warriors together, and he was briefly going through his list. He is an Edlar player making the transition, and his list appears solid.

 

Now my all comers list looks like it wouldn't break a sweat against the first two gimmick lists. The Eldar player looks like he is trying to bring too much from his old lists into DE and I think that will be his downfall. So what are you going to bring to the table against DE, gimmick lists or not?

 

My 1750 list practically remains unchanged:

 

Thuunderlord (held as counter assault unit now)

Rune Priest (more active role against transports via LL and TW)

 

GH x10 in Rhino (let them come to me, fire till last possible moment and either assault or counter attack)

GH x10 in Rhino (ditto)

GH x10 in Rhino (ditto)

 

TWC (held back as counter assault)

TWC (held back as counter assault)

Fenrisian wolves (ablative wounds/tarpit)

 

Long Fangs with Razorback (do what they do best with ML x5 and Rune Priest attached)

[Grimtooth]

Arrrrrgh I just want to crush them all!!!

 

Look, I really don't remember any gimmick lists when the new Space Wolves dex came out. Can anyone? In reality, I am pretty sure most longtime SW players actually discouraged such lists when presented here by the bandwagoneers. But I am almost 100% sure that SW had zero gimmick lists at release.

 

Now everywhere I seem to look, nothing but gimmick lists for DE and I am tired of seeing them. Even moreso the lists that rely on a tweak of the codex and how it interacts with the core rulebook!! It almost seems that the bandwagoneers have taken over this codex, from the truly veteran DE players, and are just spewing trash left and right.

 

I watched two DE players this last weekend play. Both got crushed by Nids. I was talking with a guy while doing some painting and he as putting his DE warriors together, and he was briefly going through his list. He is an Edlar player making the transition, and his list appears solid.

 

Now my all comers list looks like it wouldn't break a sweat against the first two gimmick lists. The Eldar player looks like he is trying to bring too much from his old lists into DE and I think that will be his downfall. So what are you going to bring to the table against DE, gimmick lists or not?

 

My 1750 list practically remains unchanged:

 

Thuunderlord (held as counter assault unit now)

Rune Priest (more active role against transports via LL and TW)

 

GH x10 in Rhino (let them come to me, fire till last possible moment and either assault or counter attack)

GH x10 in Rhino (ditto)

GH x10 in Rhino (ditto)

 

TWC (held back as counter assault)

TWC (held back as counter assault)

Fenrisian wolves (ablative wounds/tarpit)

 

Long Fangs with Razorback (do what they do best with ML x5 and Rune Priest attached)

 

My other lists swaps out the TWC units for a drop pod full of WGTD that looks to work as well in an enveloping attacking delivering fire to the rear of recently departed Raiders.

[Striker4]

What kind of Gimmicks are these DE using exactly? Or at least ones that are playing by the rules.. All I've heard is that they focus on speed, lance, and poison, and that can easily be countered by simply charging them head on or having a reliable shooting platform of Long Fangs and whatever tanks you like.

[Wysten]

To be honest, I don't think that the Dark Eldar are that terrifying, though I definately respect them as an equal. Their tactics relate to speed and Raider Spam and they effectively have the option to take 4 different troops choices. As people charge to take advantage of the new codex, we will be the rock in the sea, weathering their relentless attacks and breaking them time and time again. Long as we build our lists in a balienced matter in which we have the flexability to deal with everything, no matter the list and we will endure.

 

 

That being said, space wolves do have gimmic lists, massed Grey Hunters is one and Thunder Wolf lists are another. It's just simply what the codex is good at and there is no shame to play to our strengths, provided we don't comprimise in dealing with the many foes of the allfather. *Cough* And self satisfaction. :P

[Skalver]

What kind of Gimmicks are these DE using exactly? Or at least ones that are playing by the rules.. All I've heard is that they focus on speed, lance, and poison, and that can easily be countered by simply charging them head on or having a reliable shooting platform of Long Fangs and whatever tanks you like.

 

Presumably by gimmick list he means lists based around spamming one or two units, by that definition the OPs own GH + TWC list could also be called a gimmick list though.

[muadib02]

Dark Eldar are all about Gimmicks....its their thing. Each individual unit is good at 1 thing and 1 thing only, the codex is actually only as good as the person using it. While i dont condone some people out there who like to reinterpret the rules because they dont understand plain english and simple logic, I do wholly agree that if you are going to get beaten by dark eldar its going to be in a gimmicky way. In all honesty there is no DE bandwagon, people online like to speculate, but few people will actually take up the dark eldar because even having a list handed to you does not mean you actually know what to do with it. I would not worry too much about the average DE player, but watch out for those veterans out there.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

I bought the DE codex along with some models, and while they are definitely dangerous, there doesn't seem to be a "win button," an army that essentially plays itself with a high chance of victory, like our GH or TW heavy lists. Any build would either be too fragile (wych cults) or too expensive (Haemonculus covens) for easy use. Any victories require a canny general or a stupid opponent.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I agree with Jonas. I just bought the codex, and it seems like a really difficult army to play. In the back it even gives people pointers on how to play DE.

 

This codex will not have the bandwagoners of new people that a codex will usually get. It will have bandwagoners of experienced players looking for a challenge.

 

I for one, am really looking forward to it. It is totally different from playing a power armored army.

[Spacefrisian]

I think that Zhukov and i agree that 1 gimmick should be standard on Raiders, and thats its initial weapon the Dark Lance.

[CainTheHunter]

I agree with Jonas. I just bought the codex, and it seems like a really difficult army to play. In the back it even gives people pointers on how to play DE.

 

This codex will not have the bandwagoners of new people that a codex will usually get. It will have bandwagoners of experienced players looking for a challenge.

 

I for one, am really looking forward to it. It is totally different from playing a power armored army.

 

 

Indeed! I was thinking about picking them when I started playing 40k, but was discouraged since they were allegedly beginner non-friendly. And yeah, they are xenos, they are evil and they are not power armor army, so these reasons are enough for me to give them a try with a small 750 points list first (planned carefully for budgetary reasons). Something very fresh and new, especially since apart of thunderwolves I have almost all model range of the Space Wolves, which are my first and most loved army starting with the 13th Company time 7(?) years ago.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Indeed! I was thinking about picking them when I started playing 40k, but was discouraged since they were allegedly beginner non-friendly. And yeah, they are xenos, they are evil and they are not power armor army, so these reasons are enough for me to give them a try with a small 750 points list first (planned carefully for budgetary reasons). Something very fresh and new, especially since apart of thunderwolves I have almost all model range of the Space Wolves, which are my first and most loved army starting with the 13th Company time 7(?) years ago.

 

<the Inquisitor hands Cain a lemonade and bids him to lie down on the lounge>

 

So, Cain, you uh.... like.... evil things, huh?....

 

*quietly unholsters infernus pistol*

 

+++

 

You are supposed to like Lacplesis, not Crooked Cap!

[CainTheHunter]

Indeed! I was thinking about picking them when I started playing 40k, but was discouraged since they were allegedly beginner non-friendly. And yeah, they are xenos, they are evil and they are not power armor army, so these reasons are enough for me to give them a try with a small 750 points list first (planned carefully for budgetary reasons). Something very fresh and new, especially since apart of thunderwolves I have almost all model range of the Space Wolves, which are my first and most loved army starting with the 13th Company time 7(?) years ago.

 

<the Inquisitor hands Cain a lemonade and bids him to lie down on the lounge>

 

So, Cain, you uh.... like.... evil things, huh?....

 

*quietly unholsters infernus pistol*

 

+++

 

You are supposed to like Lacplesis, not Crooked Cap!

 

 

You know, having abput 3000 points of SW, ~ 2000 Imperial Guard, dunno how much since I suspended WFB Wood Elves and Bretonnians, all of them being GOOD guys, is a bit over the top B). I want some tvisted and evil finally. I am not fond of undead stuff (necrons), or orks, which leaves the only option of either DE or Chaos. And I don't want another power armor army - cause then I could just as well pick the Raven Guard.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

I don't think I'll have much trouble with DE, my 1750 list is basically take on all comers:

Logan

Rune Priest

3x GH(5) MG,MoW, WG-cmg,pf in razors w/tlhb

1x GH(8) MG,MoW, WG-cmg,pf in rhino

2x Tornados (HF,MM)

1x Typhoon

LF w/5xML, WG-TDA,CML,CF

LF w/5xHB, Razor w/tlhb

 

I think there's plenty of shots to go around on raiders

[Grimtooth]

What kind of Gimmicks are these DE using exactly? Or at least ones that are playing by the rules.. All I've heard is that they focus on speed, lance, and poison, and that can easily be countered by simply charging them head on or having a reliable shooting platform of Long Fangs and whatever tanks you like.

 

Presumably by gimmick list he means lists based around spamming one or two units, by that definition the OPs own GH + TWC list could also be called a gimmick list though.

 

So using the core Troops choice of an army is now a gimmick? And I just started usung TWC in solo roles last game. Theu wont even do god against DE due to poison probably. My other list is the exact same but with WGTDA. Let me guess, I should have MSU and that wont be gimmicky?

[Grimtooth]

I don't think I'll have much trouble with DE, my 1750 list is basically take on all comers:

Logan

Rune Priest

3x GH(5) MG,MoW, WG-cmg,pf in razors w/tlhb

1x GH(8) MG,MoW, WG-cmg,pf in rhino

2x Tornados (HF,MM)

1x Typhoon

LF w/5xML, WG-TDA,CML,CF

LF w/5xHB, Razor w/tlhb

 

I think there's plenty of shots to go around on raiders

 

I think meltaguns are not going to be such a hot item against DE with the added range thing they have on their vehicles. Plasmaguns might be the Raider killer more then meltas.

[Hotspur]

To be honest, I don't think that the Dark Eldar are that terrifying, though I definately respect them as an equal. Their tactics relate to speed and Raider Spam and they effectively have the option to take 4 different troops choices. As people charge to take advantage of the new codex, we will be the rock in the sea, weathering their relentless attacks and breaking them time and time again. Long as we build our lists in a balienced matter in which we have the flexability to deal with everything, no matter the list and we will endure.

 

Agree. I had a chance to read over the new DE Codex, and for all their shiny new toys, I'm not overly concerned. They're definitely what I'd call an alpha-strike army b/c they've got to hit you hard and fast early b/c they're extremely fragile. The more turns they have to play you, the harder it's going to be for them to win out.

 

Their average save is somewhere around 5+ (maybe even a 6+), which means that bolters will easily fell them all day. Heavy bolters with their extended range will be problematic for their Raiders. Missile launchers will be death (what else is new?) for most everything; even the "lowly" frag missile will do severe damage to most of their troops.

 

That being said, they do have lots of special characters. Some of them look quite formidable, but nonetheless, most are subject to the same weaknesses listed above. Shiny and new with lots of gimmicks, but a major threat?

 

I think not.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

Not concerned about the meltaguns in my list, like I said it's an all-comers and I rarely get to play an army specific list since I only play tournaments where I play everything from IG to Marines to Orcs to Chaos and 'Nids every time. DE will be just a new notch on the list. I got plenty of heavy bolters and missiles and lightning to throw around at raiders though. Mass heavy bolter fire has rarely let me down in games and if need be Logan could make them Tank Hunting, lol.

[Grimtooth]

To be honest, I don't think that the Dark Eldar are that terrifying, though I definately respect them as an equal. Their tactics relate to speed and Raider Spam and they effectively have the option to take 4 different troops choices. As people charge to take advantage of the new codex, we will be the rock in the sea, weathering their relentless attacks and breaking them time and time again. Long as we build our lists in a balienced matter in which we have the flexability to deal with everything, no matter the list and we will endure.

 

Agree. I had a chance to read over the new DE Codex, and for all their shiny new toys, I'm not overly concerned. They're definitely what I'd call an alpha-strike army b/c they've got to hit you hard and fast early b/c they're extremely fragile. The more turns they have to play you, the harder it's going to be for them to win out.

 

Their average save is somewhere around 5+ (maybe even a 6+), which means that bolters will easily fell them all day. Heavy bolters with their extended range will be problematic for their Raiders. Missile launchers will be death (what else is new?) for most everything; even the "lowly" frag missile will do severe damage to most of their troops.

 

That being said, they do have lots of special characters. Some of them look quite formidable, but nonetheless, most are subject to the same weaknesses listed above. Shiny and new with lots of gimmicks, but a major threat?

 

I think not.

 

You make a good point.

 

The first thing I thought of was a Vendetta/Veterans Alpha Strike list except exchanging better saves and better armor for some toys and better close combat. The same with a Eldar Fire Dragon rush list. Speed forward, pray your cover saves work, then open up armor and fire meltas into occupants.

 

I have seen a MSU list for DE and it had 6 Venoms, 2 Raiders, and 3 Ravagers in 2k points. Lots of firepower, but not sustainable in a drawn out firefight, forcing morale checks with just a few casualties on each unit.

 

Tempest Wrath is going to play hell with the DE flat out crowd. Sure you can cover 36" of a 48" game board on your first move (12" deployment, 24" flat out), but 24" of that board is now both difficult and dangerous terrain to all those skimmers.

[Grimtooth]

Not concerned about the meltaguns in my list, like I said it's an all-comers and I rarely get to play an army specific list since I only play tournaments where I play everything from IG to Marines to Orcs to Chaos and 'Nids every time. DE will be just a new notch on the list. I got plenty of heavy bolters and missiles and lightning to throw around at raiders though. Mass heavy bolter fire has rarely let me down in games and if need be Logan could make them Tank Hunting, lol.

 

My tourney list usually has two GH packs with meltas and 1 GH pack with plasmaguns. Generally a forward objective sitting squad capable of delivering 24" of plasma and bolter goodness once they are deployed and sitting. I even modeled the whole squad to be carrying nothing but bolters.

 

I do see some DE neglecting to notice my plasma gunners until it is too late since they would be right at the edge of their flat out movement range. Four str7 shots on armor 10 would be a nasty thing to declare when they thought they were safe for a turn.

[Seahawk]

What was the gimmick you saw? It still isn't defined at all, so I can't tell you if it's actually gimmicky or not. Old style lists are gimmicky? New units are?

[Hotspur]

What was the gimmick you saw? It still isn't defined at all, so I can't tell you if it's actually gimmicky or not. Old style lists are gimmicky? New units are?

 

For example: Going out to buy a car. Some cars have lots of bells and whistles that ultimately don't really do anything for the car in the essentiality of its function, i.e. heated seats and mirrors, .mp3 playback and iPod ports, sat-nav, etc... Those things would be "gimmicks." They make the car nicer and more appealing, but don't really do anything but add to the bottom line.

 

So for the DE, they have lots of special abilities that make them more appealing as an army, but aren't really contributing to the overall effectiveness of the army b/c they still have crappy saves. While giving some nice abilities all they really do is add to the points cost and not necessarily the longevity of the army.

 

I'm not sure about the others here, but that's what I mean when I say they are "gimmicky."

[Seahawk]

Hmm, but they aren't that gimmicky if it keeps them alive longer, helps them kill faster...etc. It means nothing that they have crappy saves if they get two of them and they're both good. If it were as you said, then SW would be gimmicky because they have counterattack and acute senses, Chaos would have gimmicks like the marks of chaos, all psykers would have gimmicks because of their abilities...every single special rule anywhere would be a gimmick, in which case then there's nothing to truly complain about as everyone is still equal.

 

I personally define gimmicks as cheese-ball one trick pony armies, or silly OTT unit choices that happened to work extremely well in that one game.

[Grimtooth]

One example of a DE gimmick list that I have seen several people already building:

 

Raider heavy lists with I think it is Wyches with Shock Prows to allow first turn assaults by ramming and being PLACED as a exploded result.

[Spacefrisian]

One example of a DE gimmick list that I have seen several people already building:

 

Raider heavy lists with I think it is Wyches with Shock Prows to allow first turn assaults by ramming and being PLACED as a exploded result.

 

 

Thats a very old trick.

[Grimtooth]

One example of a DE gimmick list that I have seen several people already building:

 

Raider heavy lists with I think it is Wyches with Shock Prows to allow first turn assaults by ramming and being PLACED as a exploded result.

 

 

Thats a very old trick.

 

Care to elaborate since Shock Prows are brand new and allow a fast AV 10 skimmer to ram after moving 24". Forgot to add that they are also using this in conjunction with the sails upgrade.