Crimson Spirits

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

Please bear with me, as I've been kind of spotty in areas that I've actually worked on. Not sure I'll complete this anytime soon, as it's just a 'plot bunny' that won't leave my head, but getting it started.

 

The base ideas behind this chapter are both Feudal Japan, and the behaviour of gene-seed.

 

I am unable to find a direct quote to prove it, but I remember reading that gene-seed mutates to reflect the other gene-seed around it, especially in the vats of the Adepts of Mars. The basis of this is that this chapter is the result of Adeptus Mechanicus experiments on the nature of the gene-seed, and in particular, the possibility of redemption for the traitor gene-seed. (This isn't a standard loyal traitor legion however, more to come.)

 

It's fairly likely that the traitor gene-seed stocks on Mars were not destroyed by the Imperium, at least at not in their entirety. The Inquisition has a long history of saving items, both xenos and heretical, to use in the fight against Chaos, (The Eisenhorn series is a great example of this, from the Inquisitions attitude towards the Necroteuch, to the Malus Codicium), and it's unlikely that the Imperium wouldn't have at least saved some stocks, if even to attempt to see what went wrong.

 

Similarly, while they would never attempt to modify the gene-seed, as that would be tantamount to declaring themselves wiser than the Emperor, I don't see them being above attempting to work out exactly how the gene-seed works without harming it, if they didn't know already.

 

Nor do I see the Inquisition being above attempting to use the traitor gene-seed for their own ends (The psychic potential of Magnus' brood immediately stands out, although the ferocity inherent in Angron also seems a possibility), although I doubt they would ever use it on it's own, as they would be too worried about creating more 'Chaos Marines'.

 

So, over time, the Adepts of Mars cultivate gene-seed that's an amalgamation of a traitor legions gene-seed and loyalist gene-seed from simply placing the traitor seed with the loyalist, and allowing them to influence the other, until they had a 'new' gene-seed, neither traitor nor loyalist. Obviously, neither the 'founding' chapter, nor the Chapter itself would be told of their heritage, and the Inquisition would forever be keeping a close watch on them, but I don't see it beyond the realm of possibility, even with the Imperium of Mans 'Shoot first, question it afterwards' mentality.

 

At this point I'm more interested in Magnus and the Thousand Sons, being a big fan of both them and psykers, but I'm thinking the Feudal Japan idea would likely work better with Angrons gene-seed, having them with a strict sense of honor to keep from falling too far into their bloodlust (Yes, I just finished reading the World Eaters article for the Dornian Heresy, big props to you guys it was great.).

 

Not entirely sure I'm sold on the idea either, as I'm a loyalist through and through, and it does feel slightly like I'm trying to 'godmode' something that isn't intended into the lore. But, the geneseed isn't everything about a chapter, and could be merely nothing but a reason for various story arcs, high potential for a certain activity and heavy Inquisition presence.

 

Thoughts?

[Lysimachus]

Generally, the only way to successfully use (from a writing viewpoint) traitor/mixed gene-seed is the 23rd or 'cursed' Founding when the AdMech attempted to fix/improve on the Emperor's work.

 

I'm in a bit of a hurry atm, but there are two important things to remember when writing an IA for a Chapter formed during this time:

 

1) It all goes horribly wrong. Whether they're loyalists with traitor gene-seed or mixed(presumably to fix the problems inherent in some of the loyal Legions seed), the Chapters of the 23rd Founding are doomed. They all suffer a curse of some kind, hence the name.

 

2) Be subtle. None of the GW 23rd Founding Chapters explicitly states what gene-seed was used in their creation (except the Lamenters being BA successors) or exactly what was done with it. Keep it vague.

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

Lysimachus

[Ace Debonair]

Similarly, while they would never attempt to modify the gene-seed, as that would be tantamount to declaring themselves wiser than the Emperor, I don't see them being above attempting to work out exactly how the gene-seed works without harming it, if they didn't know already.

Well, if it involved any tech-heresy, (like inventing something new - the horror!) then I'm reasonably sure the AdMech would be reluctant in the extreme to do anything of this nature.

Nor do I see the Inquisition being above attempting to use the traitor gene-seed for their own ends (The psychic potential of Magnus' brood immediately stands out, although the ferocity inherent in Angron also seems a possibility), although I doubt they would ever use it on it's own, as they would be too worried about creating more 'Chaos Marines'.

Remember, the High Lords of Terra and the AdMEch are the ones responsible in the process of creation of chapters. Although perhaps a particualrly charismatic inquisitor could talk one of the HLoT round to his point of view...

At this point I'm more interested in Magnus and the Thousand Sons, being a big fan of both them and psykers, but I'm thinking the Feudal Japan idea would likely work better with Angrons gene-seed, having them with a strict sense of honor to keep from falling too far into their bloodlust (Yes, I just finished reading the World Eaters article for the Dornian Heresy, big props to you guys it was great.).

You just wait 'till you've read their Thousand Sons article. :)

And I think in this scenario Magnus's bunch would have more potential than Angron's, although the code-of-honour deal could be pretty cool for them too.

Not entirely sure I'm sold on the idea either, as I'm a loyalist through and through, and it does feel slightly like I'm trying to 'godmode' something that isn't intended into the lore. But, the geneseed isn't everything about a chapter, and could be merely nothing but a reason for various story arcs, high potential for a certain activity and heavy Inquisition presence.

I'm with Lysimachus on this one; Cursed Founding is your best friend. :)

It's just a case of coming up with a good curse to stick on your marines. :)

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

There is an Inquisitorial Representative pretty much always as one of the High Lords.

 

I was thinking Cursed Founding if I attempt this as well (Although, I would feel very dirty writing a Cursed Founding Chapter :)). Certainly wasn't going to come out and say they're Magnus' brood, more something like 'While they venerate Guilliman as their Primarch, they show an unusual psychic aptitude for those of Guillimans blood'. Still not sure I'm sold on it.

 

As for the Tech-heresy, while I would agree they're very against creating something new, they aren't so against learning how something works so they can fix it if it becomes broken.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I do not recommend traitor geneseed. I do, however, recommend reading the Guide to DIYing that is stickied at the top of this forum, and Octavulg's Octaguide 2.0.

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

After thinking about it more in depth, I decided that I was just being lazy, and using the traitor geneseed idea to attempt to get out of reasoning out ideas on how to bring up the pskyer count in the Chapter.

 

Stay tuned for the remake. Flagging this for deletion.

[Octavulg]

I am unable to find a direct quote to prove it, but I remember reading that gene-seed mutates to reflect the other gene-seed around it, especially in the vats of the Adepts of Mars. The basis of this is that this chapter is the result of Adeptus Mechanicus experiments on the nature of the gene-seed, and in particular, the possibility of redemption for the traitor gene-seed. (This isn't a standard loyal traitor legion however, more to come.)

 

Honestly, I've never heard of this before. Like, at all.

 

It's fairly likely that the traitor gene-seed stocks on Mars were not destroyed by the Imperium, at least at not in their entirety. The Inquisition has a long history of saving items, both xenos and heretical, to use in the fight against Chaos, (The Eisenhorn series is a great example of this, from the Inquisitions attitude towards the Necroteuch, to the Malus Codicium), and it's unlikely that the Imperium wouldn't have at least saved some stocks, if even to attempt to see what went wrong.

 

It's flat-out confirmed that they weren't - they're in stasis vaults. There's an IA article on the creation of Space Marines that mentions it.

 

Similarly, while they would never attempt to modify the gene-seed, as that would be tantamount to declaring themselves wiser than the Emperor, I don't see them being above attempting to work out exactly how the gene-seed works without harming it, if they didn't know already.

 

The Cursed FOunding was a large-scale attempt at improving and repairing geneseed. Largest since the Second.

 

Using traitor geneseed in the Cursed Founding would seem quite plausible.

 

Nor do I see the Inquisition being above attempting to use the traitor gene-seed for their own ends (The psychic potential of Magnus' brood immediately stands out, although the ferocity inherent in Angron also seems a possibility), although I doubt they would ever use it on it's own, as they would be too worried about creating more 'Chaos Marines'.

 

The Inquisition doesn't get a vote on such things.

 

Thoughts?

 

Cursed Founding their asses. Solves your problem quickly and simply.

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

I think it may have been a reference in the Soul Drinkers series.

 

Gonna read through it again to find out after I finish Rynn's World.

[Octavulg]

Please don't. Every time someone reads the Soul Drinkers, I cry a little.

 

More to the point, if it's in a Black Library novel (and only in there), there's a not inconsiderable chance no one at the Studio will ever know or care about it.

[Hrvat]

I haven't read Soul Drinker but a similar thing is hinted in the IA: Rites of Initiation and IA:Relictors.

 

We know that AM selects one geneseed for each zygote(SM organ), usually due to tradition or what ever obscure reason that exists in 40k(maybe even genetic compatibility), all geneseed for zygotes come from a single geneline. Therefore we can talk about Blood Angel, Ultramarine or Imperial Fist successors. But there are moments as IA: Rlictors shows that zygotes for a Chapter can be selected from different genelines. In what combination it is not known but once the original set was put togather the chemical interaction of organs created a slightly different genetic footprint that was stored into the Progenoid in a way creating a completely new Relictors geneline that did not exists before in the past.

 

It is not known if how often or even if on any other occassion AM did that but through this we know that a Chapter could have Occulobe of the IF, Murcanoid of the UM and Ossmodula of the SA.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[Octavulg]

Except we don't know that that's what happened in the Relictors. For all we know, they just have two sets of organs in the Chapter - some have one, some have the other.

 

Furthermore, since IIRC they're a product of the Cursed Founding, they would seem to be the exception, not the norm.

[Hrvat]

Except we don't know that that's what happened in the Relictors. For all we know, they just have two sets of organs in the Chapter - some have one, some have the other.

 

Furthermore, since IIRC they're a product of the Cursed Founding, they would seem to be the exception, not the norm.

 

If the standard creation procedure was followed there can't be two sets of organs because each chapter is built from a single set, but I agree that since it was the 21st it might be an one of event.

[NightrawenII]

I am unable to find a direct quote to prove it, but I remember reading that gene-seed mutates to reflect the other gene-seed around it, especially in the vats of the Adepts of Mars. The basis of this is that this chapter is the result of Adeptus Mechanicus experiments on the nature of the gene-seed, and in particular, the possibility of redemption for the traitor gene-seed. (This isn't a standard loyal traitor legion however, more to come.)

 

Honestly, I've never heard of this before. Like, at all.

I think, he is refering to this:

Though the particulars of a new Founding are shrouded in secrecy and arcane ritual, it is known that all of a new chapter's genetic make-up is not always drawn from the seed of one donor chapter. Instead, a new chapter may represent a genetic cocktail of the geneseed of others, and although purity testing is rigorous in the extreme, it is perfectly possible that these disparate elements may react with one another at a later late, in ways quite unforeseeable by their creators, and so the seed of a disastrous mutation or character flaw is sown.

[Lysimachus]

I think, he is refering to this:

 

Surely, though, this is generally refering to several Chapters of the same genetic lineage i.e. could be one from Ultra's, one from Sons of Orar, one from Genesis Chapter, etc, etc...? At least when considering non-Cursed Founding Chapters, anyway.

[Hrvat]

I think, he is refering to this:

 

Surely, though, this is generally refering to several Chapters of the same genetic lineage i.e. could be one from Ultra's, one from Sons of Orar, one from Genesis Chapter, etc, etc...? At least when considering non-Cursed Founding Chapters, anyway.

 

Most likely yes because it would otherwise be pointless to have Chapter liniages(sp).

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

I honestly don't remember where I read it, but it was something thus:

 

The gene-seed changes to reflect those around it when it's in storage. They all try to emulate each other as best they can, which is how deficient glands or genetic anomalies develop. That's why the tithes of gene-seed are so important, to check for corruption and mutation, as well as for new foundings obviously.

 

I'm starting to think I dreamed it now, as no-one else seems to have read it.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Don't worry, I hear strange voices and am imparted with new knowledge that no one knows all the time. :mellow:

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

That strange voice is the Emperor brother.....although if you're hearing more than one, I would be concerned that the foul gods of Chaos beckon.

 

I'm certain it was from a Black Library book, which does, in the eyes of most people, take the knowledge down in credibility even if I can find the reference and didn't just conjure it up in my mind.

[Brother-Sergeant Valen]

So, reading once more through the Octaguide (Excellent work by the way), I've decided to take the approach detailed as Octavulg's process to birthing the Stone Hearts to build this chapter.

 

So, the original thought is 'I want my Chapter to have more Librarians and Devastators.' We all love our Devastator brothers. I can no longer count the amount of times that one of my brothers in a devastator squad has brought down that Leman Russ across the table before it could do untold damage to my forces, or ripped through that squad of boys threatening my scouts from doing the same thing.

 

Much the same, I'm a big psyker fan. Have been since I started reading the fluff (Yet somehow, one of my favourite chapters remains the Black Templars. Go figure), seeing them as the 40k versions of magic-users, and putting their sanity and good name at risk everytime they delve into the warp in service of the Emperor.

 

Why would a chapter have more devastators and librarians than usual? Why would they have deviated from the Codex Astartes in such fashion? The first thing that came to mind, having just finished reading 'Rynn's World' was the Ceres Protocol. The Ceres Protocol dictates that the survival of the Chapter is to be put above all other concerns, whether they be the honor of the Chapter or aiding other Imperial forces. How would this make them structure the chapter differently though? What kind of situation could they be in that would demand heavy ranged warfare above all else, and bring them to build the chapter like this?

 

Simply put, the annihilation of most of the brothers that would fill a different role. If the more close-combat orientated brothers were killed in action, leaving only those in Devastator squads, or those few Tactical squads/Predators perhaps that survive, training is going to take a serious bend towards the ranged side of things as that's what those left are most suited to teach new initiates. While they would rebuild their 'Assault Marines', if ranged tactics kept the Chapter alive, the Chapters tactics would change to take them on.

 

What would bring about the destruction of most of an Astartes Chapter, but leave them in an open warfare situation where they needed to continue battling on? Thoughts of an Ork Waaagh or Tyranid Hive Fleet have passed through my head, and were rejected as over done. Chaos? Possible, but it would need to be major. Then, as I was contemplating the gene-seed the Chapter would use, a possible idea hit me.

 

The Fallen.

 

I love the Dark Angels. A chapter full of intrigue and darkness, willing to sacrifice any Imperial forces to attain their goals, as well as having so many unknown quantities about them, they're simply a pleasure to read about. But, at least to my knowledge, there's little to no recordings of any of the Fallen ever making a serious strike back at the children of the Lion, despite the Unforgiven hunting them at all chances.

 

What if one did? It's not impossible for them to pass as human, at least not if you take the Black Library books at face value, so it possible for them to gain some position of power (Trying to avoid Inquisitor here, thinking maybe Marshal or similar), say that the Spirits were Chaos Marines and send the Imperial Guard in against them. While a chapter of Space Marines is certainly the equal of regiments of Imperial Guard, they would struggle against an entire battlegroup.

 

(More to come soon, need a break from writing. Yes, I have abandoned, at least for now, the traitor gene-seed, as I don't think my experience writing IA at this point is enough to make it believeable)

[NightrawenII]

Heh, I'm going to disappoint you here.

 

1st, the annihilation scenario is over(ab)used in the IAs. Others, like you did, figured out that the annihilation is the easiest way to bend their Chapter doctrines and belief. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just over(ab)used. ;)

 

2nd, *If the more close-combat orientated brothers were killed in action, leaving only those in Devastator squads, or those few Tactical squads/Predators perhaps that survive, training is going to take a serious bend towards the ranged side of things as that's what those left are most suited to teach new initiates.*

Doesn't work. The Scout Sergeants are drawn from guys, who mastered all forms of SM combat and therefore are deem worthy to teach it to new recruits. If you want to go the Road of annihilation, then you have to kill all veterans, scout sergeant, veteran sergeants and probably all the senior members of Chapter.

 

The best way as I see it is the BA one. They are *Codex* chapter, but they prefer cc over shooting, thus there is no shortage of Assault marines.

 

3rd, *It's not impossible for them to pass as human, at least not if you take the Black Library books at face value, so it possible for them to gain some position of power (Trying to avoid Inquisitor here, thinking maybe Marshal or similar), say that the Spirits were Chaos Marines and send the Imperial Guard in against them.* Very very unlikely. IG officers aren't in position to declare or wage a war against Emperor's Finest. Cardinal or Inquisitor is the only possibility.

 

If you have Fallen making moves against your Chapter, it will be more likely for him to join a Chaos Warband, rise into leadership and then prosecute his plans.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

If you have a Fallen attack you and the DA or a successor chapter hears about it, they'll come roaring in, kill the Fallen, then wipe you out as well. Purely by accident.