Scout Bike Cluster Mines...

[captain sox]

Hello!

 

A simple question. If you booby trap a piece of terrain with cluster mines, and your enemy deploys a unit in that terrain, when do the wounds happen? DO you tell him at the moment he deploys into the terrain, or do you wait until your first turn?

 

I'm very curious... as I can see a player chaging his mind once he deploys a unit and you go: a-ha! That terrain in mined. Your unit takes x wounds. The player could come back and say 'oh, I was just thinking about deploying there.... I wasn't really deployed there!'

 

Thoughts?

[shatter]

Wait till the end of that unit's deployment. Ie. when he moves onto another unit.

Once one moves onto another unit, one cannot go back.

[thade]

I'd do it at the end of Deployment, because sometimes people will shuffle around what units are where; unlike Fantasy, there's no hard and fast rule about unit placement in 40k (at least not that I've yet encountered), but when Deployment is over they are in fact fixed. So I'd do it after Deployment but before Scout Moves/Turn 1.

[shatter]

That was my first thought and I'd want to play it as Thade stated (to remove chance to go back) but it means that the consequences of the mine hits allow for less reaction from the opponent compared to the same circumstances in a conventional move phase. I mean to say that in a regular move phase, if one moves a unit into terrain and it gets hurt, one can move another unit to support them should the first unit be damaged. If one does this after deployment, there's no chance to do this which is, I think, unfair, unbalanced or inconsistent. Pick one.

 

Seeing that there's points making it unfair for either player, the rule requires a certain level of strength of character in the players. Problematic? Yep.

 

"Oh, harden up man!"

"But I wanna change my mind!"

"Tough, it's happened."

"Not if I don't deploy there!"

"But you did deploy there."

"No!"

"So, you could just 'fake' deployments into terrain until you find it?"

"I wouldn't do such a thing!"

"But you are doing that!"

"But this is just deployment!"

"So, you'd have rather waited until the end of deployment and not be able to react to it with other units?"

"Err, maybe."

"I see. Well, I was trying to stay consistent with the rules for both players. I'd rather you respected that."

*sulks*

"You tripped a rule, man, c'mon, there's no going back from that."

[thade]

Actually, playing the way I recommended it circumvents any need for "strength of character" and also prevents such arguments. ;)

 

"Are you all done with your Deployment/Movement Phase?"

"Not yet."

"K."

"I am now."

"Okay. You're sure?"

"Yep, Turn 1."

"Before Turn 1, that unit there suffers hits from Cluster Mines."

"Damn."

 

Ta da!

[shatter]

I agree, as I said. However, it's a little unfair whether they realise it or not.

[thade]

I agree, as I said. However, it's a little unfair whether they realise it or not.

 

We actually disagree. If you pick through the Deployment section of the BRB, you'll see that no where does it delineate how a player deploys per unit; it only delineates per player, meaning that one player deploys, then another. Since there is no RAW restriction on unit-per-unit deployment (as you are inferring) there's nothing stopping a player from shuffling his units around pel mel until his or her Deployment phase is over. Pretty sure we can agree that once a player's deployment is ended, they can't change their minds about what they've placed where: that's one of the trade offs in the game between going first and seeing where the first player deploys before you place your own units.

[shatter]

Sure, but it wasn't what I was getting at. What I was getting at is the defender is more affected by deploying in mined terrain than moving into it in a movement phase. This makes the simpler and easier ruling inconsistent in result. I still want to play it your way and would in said situation because of the increased chance of debate at the start of the game... which is pretty un-fun.

 

By RAW, one can argue that initial deployment is not counted as movement ergo, the mines don't go off. If they move out of it, again it doesn't go off as (C:BA says) the rule only states 'moves into'. This *expletive* makes me cross.

 

This is OR, so I was trying to be complete. I knew others would come and argue for simple because of the obvious problems.

 

*shrug*

[Arikel]

Eh...mayhap as compromise he should be allowed to redeploy the unit somewhere else, but it takes the hits regardless and the cluster mines are gone? But really I think thade's way is probably the best.

[thade]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. If I put my tactical squad into a Jungle terrain piece, take a second look at your Land Raider then decide to place that tac squad a foot away, I can do that if I haven't ended my Deployment phase. They're not yet Deployed as my Deployment phase is not complete. Once the phase is complete, they're where I intend them to be. Then the cluster mines take effect. Deployment is not broken up into phases, and shuffling models around while you deploy them doesn't count as Movement or anything else. Once the Deployment phase is declared over (the player is deployed), you can proceed with revealing whether they tripped cluster mines or not.

 

You just need to keep your poker face on until they finish deploying.

[Iron Father Rik]

This discussion is moot regarding the Scout Biker cluster mines. It clearly states in the description for the cluster mines that they are triggered "...the first time a unit (friend or foe) moves into the booby-trapped terrain" (emphasis mine). Ergo the mines are only triggered when a unit moves into the terrain, not moves through, out of, or even is deployed in the terrain.

[Dan VK]

I agree with shatter and Iron Father Rik. The RAW is clear, even if it doesn't seem to make sense at first look.

 

From a design standpoint it could be to allow a player to defensively reinforce a ruin. Scouts with camo cloaks in a ruin booby-trapped with cluster mines would be extremely difficult to dislodge.

[thade]

There are then. =)