tactica tactical squads?

[chaplain belisarius]

anybody feel up for doing a tactica on tactical squads?

 

the general ideas are-hold objectives, always take a rhino, always take a full squad(normally with multimelta or missile launcher, and a plasmagun), mostly used as a shooting unit, shoot the choppy, chop the shooty, combat squads? (personally i dont combat squad that much).

[thade]

I seldom take plasma guns on Tac squads; usually a melta gun, sometimes a flamer. I may take a plasma cannon (as it's dirt cheap) if not a ML. I don't always take a full set, depending on what other kinds of fire support I have in the army, as sometimes a pack of guys with bolt guns with an IC in a Rhino fulfills uses and frees up points elsewhere. Tac squads are nicely versatile and very durable. Sometimes their purpose is only to endure long enough to score, other times it's to introduce the enemy to the Emperor's Holy Rapid Fire.

 

I do almost always put them in Rhinos.

[Warp Angel]

I've coincidentally already written one. See my signature line.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I suppose the only thing i'd like to see added is a list of tactical squad load outs and perhaps a general explanation of their role.

 

Eg.

 

Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Multi-Melta - Anti-Tank duties

 

 

As when when i think about tactical squads i often want to know what load outs are best against what for when filling out my list and then maybe a rating of how effective it is out of 1 - 5

 

I don't think it needs to include EVERY combination, but perhaps the most effective and common load outs

[DarkGuard]

I see what you mean Shadowstalker Grim, something to supplement Warp Angel's in depth guide on the effectiveness and perceived roles of the Tactical Squad based on that base effectiveness, this supplement including more weapon configs to try and make Tactical Marines more effective.

 

I'll try to get the ball rolling with the couple I have been using solidly recently:

 

10 man Tactical Squad w/ plasma gun, multi-melta, power fist and Rhino

Coming in at 240pts, this config is a fantastic midfield holder. Drive the Rhino into the midfield on an objective if you must, pop smoke, and then next turn start firing out the top hatch. Both weapons have a maximum range of 24" and an optimum range of 12", and both can target roughly the same targets apart from heavy tanks. MCs, MEQ/TEQ squads and most vehicles should fear this unit and the threat bubble it can throw out. And if the horde comes, you can always disembark, rapid fire that plasma gun and your bolters. The power fist is optional, but this squad tends to operate rather alone, and so its handy to have some CC security. This unit has been a staple unit in my list for many months now, taking down squadrons of walkers, holding up MEQ squads, blasting infantry, and generally being solid.

 

10 man Tactical Squad w/ meltagun, missile launcher, power fist, combi-melta and Rhino

This one comes in at 245pts, and is IMO a good, solid front line assault unit when utilised with other units, (usually Sternguard in my case). Again, massed bolter fire can bring down infantry, as can the frag missile. The meltagun, along with the combi-melta also gives me a good shot at killing a tank that I don't like, and I can even drive by that tank shooting out the top hatch. The reason why I've gone for the ML over the MM is because the ranges of the meltagun and MM don't match up. You need to stay still to fire the MM, but you'll want to get closer to bring the tank into meltagun range, so except for shots of opportunity, you only fire one or the other. The ML therefore gives better variety in this field, and also allows you to effect the battle from your starting position before driving forward, or from the objective you so nicely captured. Again, power fist is optional, but it nicely matches the meltagun, which makes the unit more assaulty than the last.

 

10 man Tactical Squad w/ flamer, plasma cannon, and Razorback with TL-HB/LC

Can't quite remember the points value for this one, haven't used it in a couple of months as I prefer small scout sniper units or small Tactical Squads in Razorbacks. However, before I pretty much meched everything up, and started committing more squads forward, I liked having a big power armoured unit on my home objective, usually in cover, and this provided. The plasma cannon has range, and can threaten a huge variety of infantry. The flamer was handy if the enemy got close, as I could then lead a countercharge. The Razorback wasn't used as a transport, with combat squadding only really occuring if the mission had 4+ objectives. Instead, it's used as a way to get another heavy weapon into the force, depending on points and whether I needed anti-infantry or anti-tank more. This is a solid dependable unit, that can hold off half hearted assaults, but not proper assaults from specialists. Still worth a look IMO in an Earth of footslogging army.

 

 

I think in general that most people agree that to be effective, Tactical Squads need to be in 10 man squads, not broken down, and deployed in Rhinos to increase mobility, thereby making them more threatening. Razorbacks are only used with small 5 man squads for objective holding, and shouldn't really be used with combat squads.

 

Furthermore, Tactical Squads are weak when compared to Grey Hunters, BA Assault Marines and some of the lovely choices that Chaos get, and this is namely due to the fact that they only get one special weapon. Therefore, you have to try and synergise the special and heavy as well as you can, like the PG/MM combo. If not, then taking a free heavy weapon which does something different to your assault weapon gives flexibility. However, to then make them effective with their special weapon it is then advisable to use a combi with the Sergeant that maxes it, like the combi-melta/MG set up, and the combi-flamer/ flamer set-up I've heard some people using to great effect.

 

There are some good combos to be used with Tacticals, if only people are brave enough to look for them and be daring. I took a risk with trying the PG/MM and combi-melta/ MG configs, and now they are my preferred Tactical Squad.

 

Experiment and be daring, Tactical Squads really are the bread and butter of the Space Marines and should be treated as such :lol:.

[Mysticaria]

I like your squad layouts, but don't forget that Multimelta, Plasmagun squad can be enhanced with a Combi-plasma on the sergeant. Most people aren't counting on a tactical squad to be able to fire that much low-AP shooting. I like to fire a large volley at one time, but sometimes sarge can be useful if the first plasmagunner gets hot early in the game. The combi-plasma can be added for only 10 points, but I wouldn't recommend pairing this with a powerfist. Lot of points to lose if sarge gets hot. Still, I've seen it done. With the powerfist it brings the squad to an even 250... something that is a plus for some who like to make modular lists. I run mine without it for only 225 which I find to be pretty economic for a tactical squad. It definately fits more towards the shooty side of things, but it has been one of the few ways I've been able to get my tactical squads to actual kill things.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

I like your squad layouts, but don't forget that Multimelta, Plasmagun squad can be enhanced with a Combi-plasma on the sergeant. Most people aren't counting on a tactical squad to be able to fire that much low-AP shooting....... I run mine without it for only 225 which I find to be pretty economic for a tactical squad. It definately fits more towards the shooty side of things, but it has been one of the few ways I've been able to get my tactical squads to actual kill things.

 

-Myst

 

Thanks :P

 

I think I may have given him the combi-plasma, but for my dislike for combi weapons at the time. It's only been recently that I've been slapping on combi-meltas to Sternguard and that one Tactical Sergeant. I'll consider it though, obviously for less than the power fist. The reason I prefer the power fist though is because I want the squad to not have to rely on the dual melta squad or the Sternguard squad which both have power fists, and so the power fist helps round them up as being able to do combat. And only two models can shoot from the top hatch, which may have been another reason I didn't give him a combi-plasma, but I might look into it so I can do drive by plasma shootings.

[Mysticaria]

I like your squad layouts, but don't forget that Multimelta, Plasmagun squad can be enhanced with a Combi-plasma on the sergeant. Most people aren't counting on a tactical squad to be able to fire that much low-AP shooting....... I run mine without it for only 225 which I find to be pretty economic for a tactical squad. It definately fits more towards the shooty side of things, but it has been one of the few ways I've been able to get my tactical squads to actual kill things.

 

-Myst

 

Thanks :cuss

 

I think I may have given him the combi-plasma, but for my dislike for combi weapons at the time. It's only been recently that I've been slapping on combi-meltas to Sternguard and that one Tactical Sergeant. I'll consider it though, obviously for less than the power fist. The reason I prefer the power fist though is because I want the squad to not have to rely on the dual melta squad or the Sternguard squad which both have power fists, and so the power fist helps round them up as being able to do combat. And only two models can shoot from the top hatch, which may have been another reason I didn't give him a combi-plasma, but I might look into it so I can do drive by plasma shootings.

 

Yeah, I know. Those are good reasons. It doesn't really make sense on paper to scratch the fist for a combi-plas... but it really seems to work. It might be psychological or have something to do with the support units nearby. One thing that the combi gives you is more of a move, disembark, rapid fire capability. With just the two guns and two fire points you wouldn't think that you would need the third weapon, but if people know you have stationary 12" range weapons they will tend to stay out of range. Every now and then you can catch someone out by moving 12", disembark, and rapid firing a bunch of plasma in their face. Not what everyone typically expects from a tactical squad... and don't forget they may have already written that squad off as a non-threat because it doesn't even have a powerfist.

 

I think you said it right, this is one of those squads that I tried once just for fun, and really turned out to be quite effective. One thing I've been thinking about is playing around with a combi-melta. You could keep the multimelta and plasmagun, and even add the fist since it won't get hot. The combimelta would still add a bit of threat range, giving you a potential 20" melta range (move, disenback, meltagun) vice the 12" melta range on the stationary multimelta, and would add an extra low-ap shot which could potentially instakill things like Tyranid Warriors and Ork Nobs. And, would still come to an even 250 points. I might have to try it sometime.

 

-Myst

[Jackelope King]

I disagree with some of the recommendations for tactical squads posted here. Tactical Squads have the important role of holding midfield, and they're the best there is at what they do. How should we equip Tactical Squads for their mission of holding midfield for us? In one word: cheaply. I think there are four main options that deserve attention, with two special weapons and two heavy weapons (as well as a fifth that's a special case).

• Multimelta: The fact that Imperial armies in general get ready access to cheap melta is a godsend. The Multimelta has the nice advantage of range, and as I described above, lets you fortify an area against enemy vehicles fairly well. This is my go-to for Tactical Squads. Plus, for Marines, it's free! You hold midfield in an armored bunker against mechanized enemies. Something that gives you a serious edge against mech all-around should be a no-brainer.
  
• Missile Launcher: My other go-to. The missile launcher contains a few nice abilities. First, it's free. That's pretty huge. Second, it has a great range. This is honestly best for a different Combat Doctrine, where we'll make use of Combat Squads more readily, and can leave behind those mini-devastators of four Tacticals plus a missile launcher. The frag missile I can honestly live without, as you'll be shooting kraks most of the time, and that magic S8 means it can at least threaten light armor and help with fire suppression. And realistically, the missile launcher is the single easiest heavy weapons bit for a Marine player to get his hands on.
  
• Meltagun: It was my usual go-to for a Tactical Squad's special weapon. I like melta/melta. It makes enemy tanks nervous, and thus makes me happy. This one has a max treat radius of 26" in a Rhino (and with the width of the top hatch, it becomes very similar to the Multimelta), but has the added bonus of having a roughly 20" red zone for its Melta rule (move 12", deploy 2", which gives you a 14" move and then the 6" for the Melta rule). The only downside is the +5 point cost and the short range, but for what it does, it does its job well.
  
• Flamer: Cover in 5th Edition is good. Denying cover is a good response, and honestly, flamers do that well. The template also usually tacks on a lot of hits, and the sheer number of wounds it'll threaten makes it dangerous even to infantry like Marines. It's best against light infantry, but since Marines are going to be stuck in close, the flamer will probably get plenty of use. Add in it being free to a ten-man squad and very easily accessible to every Marine player who has any Marine bitz at all and I think you have a good weapon. Multi-melta + flamer is a very cheap, very nasty Tactical Squad to hold midfield. This type of squad is my current go-to squad.
  
• Las-Cannon: And now the promised special-case. I don't think that lone Las-Cannons are worth it. I don't even think they're worth it in pairs. The vehicle damage chart just doesn't make S9 AP2 that great, and you need multiple Las-Cannons to deal with even light armor. Add to it the (admittedly lower) cost and you have a few knocks against this weapon. However, when you take this weapon multiple times across the army (such as in all your tactical squads), it starts to gain some value, as you now have enough of the weapons to act as suppression weapons. The long range and high S means you'll usually be in a good position to shake or stun enemy vehicles and give your force the advantage while you slowly whittle away the enemy armor. This one starts to gain more value at higher points-values, when the ability for every unit in your army to act in a fire-suppression role is golden.
  

Other weapons (plasma, the heavy bolter, etc.) just don't make the grade. I wouldn't recommend these weapons in most tactical squads (however, as I've said before, plasma guns do start to make the grade at high points values, where you need to deal more wounds than you do otherwise, and can sacrifice some reliability).

 

But how about the Sergeant? In my mind, let him keep his Boltgun. Advocates of Power Fists are generally misguided: you're paying a significant number of points for a unit which already has an armored transport around it to let them get a few extra licks in close combat. I disagree. Especially when you have Combat Tactics, it's usually worth the gambit to try to get away from combat by falling back, then rallying with ATSKNF. Ideally, you'll do this when the other guy shoots into your unit before charging, thus denying the charge, as it's harder to escape from a melee, but since Marines are a shooty army, you want every enemy target exposed to your shooting as long as possible. The power fist, especially as "insurance", doesn't make the grade, and it jacks the cost of our Tactical Squads way more than they merit. The Sergeant may merit a combi-weapon in some games (either combi-flamer or combi-melta), but that should be a matter of having extra points, not your go-to.

 

Now to put it all together. My go-to squad weighs in at 205 points, with a Flamer, Multi-Melta, and Rhino. This squad creates a roughly 50" diameter bubble in the middle of the table where vehicles are not safe. It is immune to anti-infantry fire, and requires at least light anti-vehicular fire to be drawn away from my other mechanized elements in order to dismount the squad. With midfield secure, I can launch sorties against the enemy's backfield at my leisure, with moderate support from my Tactical Squads. In some cases, I'll go Melta/Melta, and that really makes enemy armor nervous, but that's only when I'm bringing serious anti-infantry power elsewhere in my list. Occasionally, I'll also go melta/missile launcher, with the intention of usually either combat squad-ing the Missile Launcher out for a mini-devastator squad to camp my home objective, while the other combat squad with the melta advances (often as escort to an independent character, usually a Librarian). In a list when I have my fast melta covered, I will use a similar deployment for a flamer/missile launcher squad. However, in all the missile launcher cases, Space Wolves do it better. They can get Wolf Guard with Cyclone Missile Launchers in reasonable numbers, and back it all up with Long Fangs. The Multi-Melta is far and away my Heavy Weapon of choice.

 

Note that I'm saving roughly 40 points compared to the load-outs suggested above. Multiply this by 2-3 squads (in general, I think 2 Tactical Squads is perfectly sufficient, with 3 being gravy to bail out either of your other squads). That's how almost all my armies wind up filling every single Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support slot, and how I put so many threats on the table that the sheer weight of threats strangles the enemy force. Maximizing threats is key to victory in 40k. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

[Warprat]

I like the combi-flamer, flamer, plasma cannon loadout...

 

I have tried saving the 10 points by shorting the squad it's combi, but the damage result was subpar. You usually only get one good oppourtunity to flame, and when that happens, you really need to do horrific damage. Two flamers can easily make that a reality, averaging 8-12 hits in one dual blast. Then add in the bolt pistols for a charge, or rapid firing bolters if not. Dual flamers can really make a mess of podders, former transport passengers, or any infantry unfortunate enough to be grouped up in a choke point.

 

You can use them either whole squad or combat squaded. I like to go whole squad against wimpier armies like Tau where the squad could take significant fire. Against superior hand to hand troops, like Space Wolves, I prefer to combat squad.

 

Which brings me to my next point, plasma cannons. Plasma cannons work great against the same grouped up infantry units flamers like, but in addition they can also hit harder infantry like terminators, or even lightly armored vehicles up to dreadnoughts and the like. Running 3 or more of these squads will give you the ability to put a plasma template pretty much anywhere on the table. Which is especially nice after having blown up a transport. A good burst can take out half a squad!

 

So when combat squadded, my plasma cannons will be firing practically every turn possible, while the flamer squads move up and hold off the enemy for a few more seconds. Sometimes I will hold a flamer squad in reserve to defend against pods and whatnot, before it starts it's attack run. (Red 5 standing by...)

 

When whole squadded, the squad is more geared to assault. Flamers, pistols... assault! The plasma cannon generally only see action when the squad has been reduced to three or less and the squad is no longer functional in hand to hand. So it goes into a preservation, but still a thorne in your side, mode. It basts off plasma shots until the cannon is gone, then runs and hides if anybody is left alive.

 

Most of the time I just take a melta bomb on the sarge, but sometimes take a power fist if I have the points. The power weapon would seem to make more sense, by it just dosn't rock peoples worlds like a fist can.

 

Warprat ;)

[thade]

There is actually a squad load out here that people are not putting forward, which is dirt cheap and shouldn't be neglected: that is the less-than-ten-marine unit with bolters only. I field an eight to nine marine unit of tacticals and every model in the unit has a boltgun; I give the serg a Powerfist, but then I *always* give my sergeants PFs. This unit leaves one slot in a Rhino open so I can opt to stick an IC in with them if I wish. They are a *lot* of rapid fire and have very specific roles. None of them have any heavy weapons, so the unit can always move. No anti-vehicle weapons (save krak grenades and the fist) means they are often fire support for my heavy assault teams or run alongside the sternguard for anti-infantry mayhem.

 

If ever I find I'm hurting for points elsewhere, I usually drop the special weapons from the tac squad and put them where they can be risked: in a non-scoring unit. I do take load outs (usually a flamer or meltagun, with a plasma cannon or the heavy bolter depending on my foe), but MLs are often stacked up in my Dev squads so I'm seldom hurting for anti-Rhino.

[chaplain belisarius]

very interesting points...:tu:

 

In my opinion i use tacticals in 2 ways-

 

1-lascannon, flamer (or meltagun?), combat squadded with a rhino. This does ok when i need to have a lascannon opening up on the enemy from turn 1. I take 2 squads of these guys and stick a captain with relic blade with the special weapon squads.

 

2-10 men with multimelta and plasma gun. nuff said!^_^

 

I find since ive focused mostly on shooting with tacticals and keeping them cheap and cheerful (no powerfist...!) they are performing much better. I will use my tacticals for assault if its tactically prudent to do so but most of the time i prefer them shooting...

 

my 2 cents...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Well what of the core basic load out, Flamer + Missile Launcher

 

Its 205 with a rhino, cheap and available and i suppose reasonably efficient as a sort of swiss army knife role. I say this because it lacks the finesse of a tactical that is tooled up for a specific role, but has the ability to combat infantry through both weapons and light armour through the heavy, as well as being reasonable to combat squad or maintain movement. Generally it seems to me that this squad is under-rated as it is capable of performing in multiple roles for the cheapest configuration and easiest to obtain.

 

 

Another question, if a powerfist is ever taken (and i would suggest the idiology that a fist is only taken for units that are expected to operate outside the range of an assault unit's support) is it ever a good idea to give it a combi-weapon in addition?

 

For instance a melta team of Meltagun and Multi-Melta, the sarge takes a powerfist. Is it a good idea to take a combi-flamer or melta to either bolster the units weakness or supplement its firepower?

[chaplain belisarius]

good question there mate! I used to tool them up to do pretty much anything but to be honest i now think they work best as shooting units with a rhino to hide in or ride about in. If my army was a song tacticals are the drums or bass, the rest of my army adds to this...

 

hope that made sense! :tu:

 

basically the cheaper your tacticals are-the more points you have to take specialised units that will support a particular plan or playstyle...

[Fetterkey]

You should basically always take a combi-weapon in a 10-man Tactical Squad. It increases the unit's firepower extremely dramatically.

[Jackelope King]

You should basically always take a combi-weapon in a 10-man Tactical Squad. It increases the unit's firepower extremely dramatically.

I disagree (and disagree with the notion of spending more points than you need to on Tacticals in general). Tactical Squads are pretty good for what you pay. What you don't want to do is to get suckered into spending more points than you need to. What Tactical Squads need most in the world is more threats to crush the enemy with. They're there to support your real face-beaters, and you shouldn't invest in them to help the Tacticals themselves beat face. That dog won't hunt, and it's not worth the points to try to gear them up to do that.

 

Note, Fetterkey, that I actually think Combi-weapons are a decent, modestly-priced investment that can work well with Tactical Squads (but they're gravy, not meat and potatoes). I'm only using this as an example in the larger school of thought that Tacticals should be tricked out to make them killier.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I agree with the notion of tacticals being a support element overall (ironic we require the 2 troops as part of the FOG, but actually we should think about them to fill in where the rest of the army needs help and so tacticals in a way come last!)

 

 

But lets face it they can't fill in for a role as well as other choices can, i mean anti-tank is perhaps better from other sources, but they help fill out our backup roles for the army i guess.

[Mysticaria]

You should basically always take a combi-weapon in a 10-man Tactical Squad. It increases the unit's firepower extremely dramatically.

I disagree (and disagree with the notion of spending more points than you need to on Tacticals in general). Tactical Squads are pretty good for what you pay. What you don't want to do is to get suckered into spending more points than you need to. What Tactical Squads need most in the world is more threats to crush the enemy with. They're there to support your real face-beaters, and you shouldn't invest in them to help the Tacticals themselves beat face. That dog won't hunt, and it's not worth the points to try to gear them up to do that.

 

Note, Fetterkey, that I actually think Combi-weapons are a decent, modestly-priced investment that can work well with Tactical Squads (but they're gravy, not meat and potatoes). I'm only using this as an example in the larger school of thought that Tacticals should be tricked out to make them killier.

I disagree with some of this. I see your point about spending too many points on a tactical squad, but when you are already in the 205-210 point range... I find a lot of value in spending 10 points to significantly increase the effectiveness of that unit. The multimelta/plas/combi-plas squad is one example where 10 points buys a lot. That one turn when you are going to rapid fire in a game (usually only happens once before everything gets into combat) is going to be twice as effective if you brought that combi-plas sergeant. I see it as a 5% increase in the cost of the squad and I definately feel like I am increasing their capability by way more than 5%. On a point-per-capability basis I think combi-weapons in tactical squads rank way up there. I think fetterkey is on to something with his 'basically always' policy.

 

Anyway, I only play 2 tactical squads in my 1,000 point, 1,500 point, 1850 point, and 2,000 point tournament lists and one of those is the stock black reach squad. 205 points of cheap, combat squading goodness with the missile mini-dev to sit on home objective. Keep it cheap, stay at home, send the other half out to drive around and see how long their ride lasts shooting flamer out the top. I don't take a combi weapon in that squad, but I wonder.... combi-melta and meltagun would do alright. Sort of like a mini-melta suicide squad. I tend to not see flamers do anything, but everyone else is so high on flamers. Would combi-flamer be good in a black reach squad?

 

-Myst

[Brother Captain Josef]

To my mind tac squads fit into one of 3 roles: 'Efficient', 'Opportunist' and 'Generalist'.

 

An 'Efficient' tac squad will make the most out of what it's good at and lets other units deal with other things. For example you might load up the tacs for anti infantry:

 

2x Tac Squads with flamer, combi-flamer, Heavy Bolter, + Rhino

TOTAL = 430pts

 

Tac squads sort out infantry making the most out of its standard issue 8 x bolters while other elements of your force deal with the other stuff et al.

 

 

A 'Generalist' tac squad will mix what its squads are loaded up to deal with:

 

1 x Tac Squad with Powerfist, Combi-flamer, meltagun, Lascannon + Rhino with extra Storm bolter = 255pts

1 x Tac Squad with Powerfist, Combi-plasma, Flamer, Plasma Cannon + Rhino with Hunter killer missile = 255pts

TOTAL = 510pts

 

Every unit has the capacity to take on and damage pretty much anything. You will notice however it's 80pts more expensive and when you are shooting your lascannon or meltagun at a tank your bolter shots are wasted so you lose efficiency.

 

 

An 'Opportunist' tac squad is designed to do a specific role but will have one weapon that will stand out for 'shots of opportunity':

 

1 x Tac Squad with Power weapon, Combi-flamer, Plasma gun, Plasma cannon + Rhino = 230pts

1 x Tac squad with Combi-flamer, Flamer, Lascannon + Rhino = 225pts

TOTAL = 455pts

 

And almost as if I planned it the Opportunist army units come right smack in the middle. I shall limit myself to saying that the best weapons of opportunity are usually heavy weapons as combi weapons fit too snugly with their specific counterparts to ignore their synergy - the only exception I can think of at the moment is the example I have given above - (In the voice of Brian Blessed)

"PLASMA CANNON?!?! FIVE..... LESS THAN SIX POINTS?!?! BWAHAHAHAHAAA!" *yoink*

 

 

Each of the sub categories has it's own advantages. Efficient squads are good because you are wasting as little as possible but vulnerable to an opponent who quickly identifies what is the main threat to their particular build and eliminates it. Generalist squads are the opposite as they can have a go at everything - excellent but you do pay through the nose for this versatility and doubly so as you are invariably forfeiting some of your firepower Opportunist squads try to get the best of both worlds. A good tactic for example against an aggressive opponent is to have a anti infantry unit hiding in a Rhino with a lascannon firing at vehicles and opening transports etc until the infantry gets close then it hops out, hoses them down with special weapons fire and bolt shells then goes for a beer.

 

Is a fairly good summary of tac squads?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

See the problem with tacticals is that if you don't give them a focus, ie melta, meltagun or plasmagun, plasma cannon

 

You end up 'diluting' their power. This is something that concerns me as it sometimes wasting the points you pay for them in the first place. I mean a tactical that packs a plasma, Multi-melta at least operates at the same range, but a flamer, lascannon have two things that don't really work in tandem and operate at the complete opposite end of the range chart. In my eyes such a split is only good if you're splitting them as otherwise its just wasted points all over.

[Warprat]

See the problem with tacticals is that if you don't give them a focus, ie melta, meltagun or plasmagun, plasma cannon

 

You end up 'diluting' their power. This is something that concerns me as it sometimes wasting the points you pay for them in the first place. I mean a tactical that packs a plasma, Multi-melta at least operates at the same range, but a flamer, lascannon have two things that don't really work in tandem and operate at the complete opposite end of the range chart. In my eyes such a split is only good if you're splitting them as otherwise its just wasted points all over.

 

 

I see what your talking about. But for me, the combi-flamer, flamer, plasma cannon works well together. Let me explain...

 

 

Partly it is my view towards combat squadding. I use whole squads when I anticipate heavy enemy fire. Usually heavy enemy fire means the enemy are bad at hand to hand. I take a very middle of the road approach, shoot the assaulters and assault the shooters. When assaulting, it is very rare for me to use the heavy weapon. My Tac squads are generally on the move. Sometimes there will be a shot too good to pass up, and the plasma cannon opens up to soften a position or hit something valuable. But usually not. It will mostly get used when the squad is no longer close combat viable.

 

I combat squad when facing powerful melee troops. One, the is no percentage in playing the enemy's game and going hand to hand. Two, I want to do as much damage to them as I can before they get to me. And three, when I do have to fight them, I want a softening agent. Some times, when fighting terminators for example, I would gladly give my left nut for a couple of plasma guns, instead of the flamers. But overall, the flamers work very well. I really shouldn't be taking terminators on with tacticals anyway. But stuff happens, and lots of basic hits can sneak by fancy storm shields in a pinch. The plasma cannons stand off at range. With most armies being mechanized, hitting stranded passengers is like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Which brings me to the role I wish my tacticals to play. And that is of oppourtunistic infantry destroyers. (Thanks! Brother Captain Josef) Bolters and bolt pistols are of little use against vehicles. If you are shooting vehicles, you are wasting the bolter ammo. It may be a great shot, and worth doing. But I generally dislike arming my tactical squads with vehicle destroyers, and would rather use a combined arms approach and let some other unit handle that job.

 

Some people like to generalize thier army, having all the units able to take on dual roles. I can see that is a viable approach. But I prefer to specialize roles, for a couple reasons. First, it helps to keep the cost down, enabling the army to take more units. Second, it is more efficient, allowing the unit to maximize damage output.

 

My squads are able to exploit all the Space Marine special capabilities, combat squads, combat tactics, middle of the road stats, etc. For me, that is the generalizing nature I wish to exploit, instead of creating the "all rounder" squads. The army as a whole shifts gears, and units reform like a giant transformer robot to take on different types of armies.

 

 

Now thankfully, everyone doen't play like I do and there are plenty of great generals that use different ideas. Plenty of them beat me up from time to time. So I will gladly shut up now, and read other people's strategies. Great discussion everyone!

 

Warprat ;)

[thade]

See the problem with tacticals is that if you don't give them a focus, ie melta, meltagun or plasmagun, plasma cannon

 

You end up 'diluting' their power. This is something that concerns me as it sometimes wasting the points you pay for them in the first place. I mean a tactical that packs a plasma, Multi-melta at least operates at the same range, but a flamer, lascannon have two things that don't really work in tandem and operate at the complete opposite end of the range chart. In my eyes such a split is only good if you're splitting them as otherwise its just wasted points all over.

 

I disagree with this, based upon my post just a bit above it. A unit of 8-9 tacticals with boltguns and a powerfist (I always take powerfists) is an anti-infantry party. Don't underestimate a full volley of bolterfire from a tac squad. Nine marines are a discount scoring team with room in that Rhino for an IC. Disappointed that they don't have special weapons? You have other teams that can take special weapons, and they're expendable in most game types as they're *not* Scoring units.

 

Every unit in your army should be geared up to serve their purpose. Tacticals in my mind are best at serving three:

- Holding objectives: Tacs are durable, and typically there are other units in your army which are better for hunting/killing. Also, they're Scoring.

- Rapid-fire (seriously): A full 20 shot boltgun volley is a very nice way to soften up a huge target infantry unit before you charge them with assault marines

- Opportunity hits: Combi-meltas, free MLs, that sergeant's power fist...whatever else you gave them. Having a full tactical squad stand on anti-transport duty boils down to a full unit of ten marines standing around while one of them pops off krak missiles at Rhinos...which is in general nine marines worth of points you're not using...unless they're sitting on an objective. B) Or have nothing else to do. Or popping that Rhino is a good idea.

 

But you don't HAVE to give them upgrades, or even fill them to ten. They're still very useful.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I see what you both mean and I do agree with the idea of a split weapons idea for a tactical can be highly efficient, or even no special or heavies at all! I just thought about maximising the efficiency for a squad by taking multiples of a weapon.

 

I also agree with them fulfilling the three roles you suggest thade, primarily filling their roles as objective takers and close range support. But i don't think this is to say they cannot contribute to a battle as well as other units, i mean a unit kitted out to take out tanks can help keep a section of the field clear from tanks and change the way the game is played, or an anti-infantry group could remove large numbers from the field quickly.

 

I think generally though they need to work to support and supplement your other units and should be kitted to fulfil this

[chaplain belisarius]

very interesting points there..:D

 

personally i keep my tacticals cheap and cheerful and rely on the rest of my force to do the real damage...

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I like to have a solid base of three tac squads, with one Multi-Purpose, one Tank Hunting/Close Assault, and one Long Range Fire Support. They form the basis of my army, with my other units complementing them as best as possible.