tactica tactical squads?

[DarkGuard]

I find myself agreeing with quite a few of your thoughts waaanial00, in particular about power fists. I also used to put them onto every squad I could, but now, after experiencing them missing half the time, and the inevitable 1s to wound etc only use them on a handful of units, normally just me Sternguard at the moment, although I'll one on a melta/combi-melta tactical squad. Most tactical squad sergeants now take a combi-flamer, which goes with the squad's flamer in being able to really put the hurt on infantry. Orks and Nids can't stand it, while Marines will still loose a few men. I also find that I don't miss much in combat, as it's only two guys who might die at most. Units where the power fist would be useful are units you'd prefer not to assault, while units you'd prefer to assault often mean that a power fist is overkill, so its not worth it for its points IMO.

 

I do however, prefer the multi-melta. I advance my squad's a lot, and so it'll be in range. Furthermore, against tanks it's superior than the missile launcher. True it hasn't got a S4 blast, but then I don't rate the frag missile, and have enough anti-infantry with my bolters and flamers. For me, the multi-melta is much better at board control which is what I want my tactical squads to do, but that's just my opinion.

[waaanial00]

Yes, multi meltas. I did for a time run the following

 

Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun, Multi Melta in a Rhino

 

It was ok and the ranges of the weapons complemented each other, it may see a reprisal. However I was finding that I never used it, my two modes of combat with Tacticals seems to be stand off or mobile assault (not assault as in punching but more being mobile and shooting). The logic of rushing mid table and dominating an area seemed appealing but with so few troops on the board I found that my tacticals needed to keep moving.

 

Mind you its all about testing things out, certianly I killed a bunch of things with the Plasma weapons but I dont think I got much out of the Multi Melta. I wouldnt put both meltas in the same unit though, my big game killers need to be mobile, my use of Multi Melta was medium tank hunting something the S7 Plasma weapons could handle. That way it didnt need to be 12" range necessarily.

[DarkGuard]

I used to run plasma gun/multi-melta as well, was pretty good, as it set up a pretty nasty bunker unit that can seriously hurt anything that gets close. However, I found that it wasn't truly amazing, and wasn't exactly warranting its points cost. The dual flamer set up is the same points, but hurts GEQ a lot harder, and honestly I feel it has the same potential to damage MEQ due to stacking on wounds. And it gives a special weapon shot if I want to charge, and ignores cover which is very important, especially with those new Reaver jetbikes which are causing a stir at my LGS.

 

I do totally agree with you about testing things out. My tactical squad's load out has changed many, many times, and I still find new ones I want to try. I don't think I'll ever stop changing them, although they'll probably change between a few favourites now. And that's the best thing about tactical squads. Their options means that players can load them out as they wish, making them truly flexible depending on how the player wants to play their squad. In the end, tactical squads can be a quite a personal thing to a player, as it's how they want their squad.

[chaplain belisarius]

im actually finding the plain old missile launcher and flamer, split into combat squads and the flamer squads ride in a rhino...that normally gets a h/k missile is working out well...it can generally hurt most things, especially at low point battles (like i tend to play)

 

my 2 cents...

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The thing with a C:SM Tac Squad is that you can get an effective unit with weapon upgrades for free...

[chaplain belisarius]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

<_<

[DarkGuard]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

:P

 

I'm personally not a fan of combat squads. I used to use them and love the idea of them, but I find the 5 man squads to be ridiculously fragile, dying to small arms fire very quickly. It's a shame really, because the way that one can take only one special and one heavy weapon tells me that combat squads was intended to be used, as it is IMO the easiest way to make specials and heavies work efficiently. If they work for you, then go for it. I certainly think they have to handled a different way to full strength tactical squads, I just haven't figured out and unfortunately probably never will.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

^_^

 

I'm personally not a fan of combat squads. I used to use them and love the idea of them, but I find the 5 man squads to be ridiculously fragile, dying to small arms fire very quickly. It's a shame really, because the way that one can take only one special and one heavy weapon tells me that combat squads was intended to be used, as it is IMO the easiest way to make specials and heavies work efficiently. If they work for you, then go for it. I certainly think they have to handled a different way to full strength tactical squads, I just haven't figured out and unfortunately probably never will.

 

Also, thinking of one Combat Squad as an "assault" element.. They are Tactical Marines, if you are choosing to assault with them then something is wrong.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I kind of think tacticals could use combat squadding to work with 2 other marine units, so split special weapons as an assault element to march forward fast with assault marines, whilst the other half hangs back with devestators. Obviously it promotes large numbers of marines to maximise the special weapons and heavy weapons.

[Mysticaria]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

<_<

 

I'm personally not a fan of combat squads. I used to use them and love the idea of them, but I find the 5 man squads to be ridiculously fragile, dying to small arms fire very quickly. It's a shame really, because the way that one can take only one special and one heavy weapon tells me that combat squads was intended to be used, as it is IMO the easiest way to make specials and heavies work efficiently. If they work for you, then go for it. I certainly think they have to handled a different way to full strength tactical squads, I just haven't figured out and unfortunately probably never will.

 

Also, thinking of one Combat Squad as an "assault" element.. They are Tactical Marines, if you are choosing to assault with them then something is wrong.

Not true. In my opinion the only thing that is wrong is being so closed minded that you don't see when there are opportunities to benefit in the assault phase. There are a lot of instances when Tactical Squads want to assault. Check out the thread tactical Squads: Is it ever worth assaulting? for a good number of reasons to assult.

 

-Myst

[Captain Juan Juarez]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

:D

 

I'm personally not a fan of combat squads. I used to use them and love the idea of them, but I find the 5 man squads to be ridiculously fragile, dying to small arms fire very quickly. It's a shame really, because the way that one can take only one special and one heavy weapon tells me that combat squads was intended to be used, as it is IMO the easiest way to make specials and heavies work efficiently. If they work for you, then go for it. I certainly think they have to handled a different way to full strength tactical squads, I just haven't figured out and unfortunately probably never will.

 

Also, thinking of one Combat Squad as an "assault" element.. They are Tactical Marines, if you are choosing to assault with them then something is wrong.

Not true. In my opinion the only thing that is wrong is being so closed minded that you don't see when there are opportunities to benefit in the assault phase. There are a lot of instances when Tactical Squads want to assault. Check out the thread tactical Squads: Is it ever worth assaulting? for a good number of reasons to assult.

 

-Myst

 

Ah, so my opinion is a sign of my closed mind? Or maybe it's my opinion on the use of the unit?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

:D

 

I'm personally not a fan of combat squads. I used to use them and love the idea of them, but I find the 5 man squads to be ridiculously fragile, dying to small arms fire very quickly. It's a shame really, because the way that one can take only one special and one heavy weapon tells me that combat squads was intended to be used, as it is IMO the easiest way to make specials and heavies work efficiently. If they work for you, then go for it. I certainly think they have to handled a different way to full strength tactical squads, I just haven't figured out and unfortunately probably never will.

 

Also, thinking of one Combat Squad as an "assault" element.. They are Tactical Marines, if you are choosing to assault with them then something is wrong.

Not true. In my opinion the only thing that is wrong is being so closed minded that you don't see when there are opportunities to benefit in the assault phase. There are a lot of instances when Tactical Squads want to assault. Check out the thread tactical Squads: Is it ever worth assaulting? for a good number of reasons to assult.

 

-Myst

 

Ooh! Someone noticed my thread!

 

On topic, I don't play one tac squad per 500. I play 2 tacs at 1250 and below and then three for the rest.

[Mysticaria]

...especially with combat squadding....(giving you a support group and assault group)

 

:lol:

 

I'm personally not a fan of combat squads. I used to use them and love the idea of them, but I find the 5 man squads to be ridiculously fragile, dying to small arms fire very quickly. It's a shame really, because the way that one can take only one special and one heavy weapon tells me that combat squads was intended to be used, as it is IMO the easiest way to make specials and heavies work efficiently. If they work for you, then go for it. I certainly think they have to handled a different way to full strength tactical squads, I just haven't figured out and unfortunately probably never will.

 

Also, thinking of one Combat Squad as an "assault" element.. They are Tactical Marines, if you are choosing to assault with them then something is wrong.

Not true. In my opinion the only thing that is wrong is being so closed minded that you don't see when there are opportunities to benefit in the assault phase. There are a lot of instances when Tactical Squads want to assault. Check out the thread tactical Squads: Is it ever worth assaulting? for a good number of reasons to assult.

 

-Myst

 

Ah, so my opinion is a sign of my closed mind? Or maybe it's my opinion on the use of the unit?

I took your comment to mean that you considered it a bad idea for tactical marines to ever choose to assault. So yeah, that "opinion" sounds pretty closed minded to me. It doesn't mean that you are closed minded, just that was how I took your one post about tactical marines. The way you phrased it was pretty strong and honestly doesn't make it sound like you are open to debate on the topic.

 

Thing is, I probably agree with you that most times Tactical Marines shouldn't assault, but I don't go around saying that people who might on occasion choose to do so are "wrong". There are indeed times when it a good play to assault. Space Marines are better in close combat than a number of other armies, and in these matchups going forward into assault is indeed the best play. Not being open to that possibility because assaulting with tactical marines is wrong, could hinder a lot of players.

 

-Myst

[chaplain belisarius]

i mean assault element advance, take objectives, take the enemy on using firepower or assault (depending on situation). I didnt mean they should constantly be charge into assault...:P

[LardO'Blood]

How do you guys make a good, generalist tactical squad?

I was thinking flamer, ML and PF but that doesn't do enough against MEQ and TEQ for me.

[DarkGuard]

How do you guys make a good, generalist tactical squad?

I was thinking flamer, ML and PF but that doesn't do enough against MEQ and TEQ for me.

 

The answer to this question depends a lot on what you're facing at your LGS and your playstyle, but I will attempt to answer it as best I can.

 

Now the first thing to do is to identify what tactical marines are good at, and the answer is GEQ. Their bolters rip them apart provided they aren't in cover, and if they are in cover they can always beat them in assault. On the flip side, they are less effective against MEQ, less so against TEQ, less so against MCs and hardly effective against tanks unless close up. So marines can handle the little guys, but not their peers are the big guys.

 

Now to remedy that somewhat. You say flamer, missile launcher and power fist isn't enough against MEQ and TEQ. I'd agree with that. Against MEQ and TEQ you want to either cause a lot of wounds so that they'll fail a few saves, or cause unsaveable wounds to take them out. So how do we do this?

 

The answer is through special and heavy weapons. Tactical marines have the fortunate ability to be able to take cheap special and heavy weapons, often a 5-10pts discount if you have a full squad of 10 men. So now we have a squad of 10 men, all with bolters and able to kill the little guys. So what can we do for the big guys? Well you can either choose one of the free weapons options, the missile launcher in particular being able to handle MEQ, GEQ and light tanks, while the multi-melta can handle MEQ, TEQ and tanks. Both are free. IMO the multi-melta is a better buy. You already have anti-GEQ with your boltguns, you don't need anymore, and the multi-melta can also handle TEQ and tanks better. The other option, however, is the plasma cannons. This is very cheap, and can handle GEQ, MEQ, TEQ and light tanks due its high strength, low AP and blast template. So it depends on points and the armies you face as to whether to take a multi-melta or a plasma cannon.

 

Now onto the special weapons. Remember, we have a lot of anti-GEQ with the boltguns, and we don't need much more, so the flamer may seem a redundant choice. It isn't, but I'll come back to that. To threaten other targets more we have a choice of two options, meltaguns or plasma guns. Now meltaguns can threaten anything, although hasn't got the shots to handle hordes. The plasma gun, however, sacrifices destructive power against tanks to get another shot, making it more balanced against hordes.

 

Putting this altogether then, a balanced unit that I used to like is plasma gun, multi-melta and a Rhino (power fist optional). This unit has bolt shots for GEQ, and plasma gun and multi-melta for MEQ, TEQ and tanks. You've got a nicely balanced squad now.

 

However, the flamer. Now the flamer greatly expands their anti-infantry, and ignored cover, and is free. And it can hit multiple people, causing more wounds, more saves and more kills. Unfortunately, in my experience one flamer doesn't do much against MEQ and TEQ, but two flamers do. Therefore, if you want to use flamers in a generalist unit, then give the sergeant a combi-flamer. In fact, to make Marines more generalist always give the sergeant a combi-flamer. It never misses, and it that critical turn it can lump a lot of wounds on marines, forcing them to fail saves, or it can tear hordes apart. The plasma gun is temperamental, overheats and misses. The flamer is free, and paired with a combi-flamer it can get as many kills as the plasma gun in one turn of shooting through forcing saves. Anti-tank is hardly effected because the multi-melta is so good.

 

So my favourite squad now is combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta and a Rhino. I don't take credit for this load out, but its good. It destroys hordes, threatens tanks, MCs and TEQ, and can cause a few wounds on marines through rolling lots of dice.

 

In the end, it comes down to the sort of balancing act you want, but if something isn't working, don't be afraid to chop and change, tacticals are good like that.

[Warp Angel]

I take 1 tactical squad per 500 points...

I find this old chestnut comes up once in awhile, and I'm not attacking you, bellsarius, but it's a myth that needs debunking.

 

At the end of the game, you need to control exactly 1 objective and just prevent the other guy from controlling any. And every non-Troops model in your Codex can contest.

 

So let's keep our Troops cheap in another way: for most Marines forces (save Armored Cavalry deployments, with Razorback spam, or Bikes lists), 2 is usually good. From about 1850 and up, taking a third Tactical Squad is simply to add durability. I'm fine with that. And I'm even okay with a fourth at 2500. This saves us points to spend on killier units.

 

I already know the comeback, by the way. I hear it all the time when I play my Tau list: "All I need to do is kill your few weak troops and you can't win!" My Tau list has two Kroot Squads (15x T3 models with no save in each squad) and a minimum-sized Fire Warrior squad (6x T3 models with a 4+ save). The Fire Warriors pile into a Devilfish that's basically a Chimera skimmer. My opponents gleefully go after my Troops. The Kroot die in about two turns, and I might get a weapon knocked off the Devilfish. But they've thus spent two turns ignoring my Crisis Suits, which can put out 40 shots that wound on 2s every turn. By the time this dawns on them, it's usually too late. The Kroot have sapped their momentum and slowed them midfield, and the Crisis Suits have shot most of their threats into irrelevance or just plain off the table.

 

This is a lesson I've since applied to my Marines. I'll save my points to take as many threatening units as I can. Troops can do this, note. I take 3 full Bike Squads in my Biker army, and 5 tactical squads in Razorbacks in my Armored Cavalry army. They're decently killy within the context of these lists. But as a rule, Tactical Squads in Rhinos aren't killy. They're pure, delicious support. They hold midfield, and provide fire-support to your more deadly elements. A Tactical Squad in a Rhino takes some investment in both time and firepower to kill off, so usually by the time the enemy realizes the futility of "killing my few troops", he's suffered more attrition than his force can handle, and now he's choking on my more threatening elements.

 

And using Killhammer principles, your Crisis Suits are probably one of the highest priority targets in your list the first couple turns until the time that you need to start eliminating scoring units. Any strategy that relies on your opponent to make poor choices in order to win is one that's going to fail if your enemy doesn't make mistakes.