Librarium Project: Well sorta...

[Ferrus Manus]

Dearest Liberites,

 

In an attempt to add to the endless databanks of knowledge that is the Librarium, myself and Strike Captain Lysimachus are attempting to form two articles: one on the Praeses Chapters that guard the Eye of Terror; with the other being a timeline/description of the Black Crusades of Abaddon and his Legions.

 

We, however, are only two mere mortals – strong, handsome and quite charming at that, but still only mortals – so we would like to request your aid on finding details and information on the above subjects, with citations for everything of course :lol:

 

So, let the hunt begin…

[Lysimachus]

We have some good starting points already, Codex Grey's excellent Librarium article on the Praeses is here and Aurelius Rex has complied this list of the Black Crusades here (post 4). However, if there are more details out there, we're eager to find them.

 

As an interesting point, I had a look through C:CSM, on pg 24 it has a box about Black Crusades that Aurelius has mentioned only in passing:

 

It is the nature of Chaos that infighting and rivalry keep the Chaos Space Marines from permanently uniting. However, once or twice in a millennium, a truly great Champion of Chaos arises in the Eye of Terror. Through the power of his implacable will and the favour of the Ruinous Powers, this Champion welds together an unsteady alliance between the infernal regions of the Eye of Terror. How the Champion brings such ‘Black Crusades’ together depends upon his nature and his patron God. Some use manipulation, others extortion, others domination, others intimidation. Most use all of the considerable powers at their disposal.

 

Just thought it's interesting that it's clear that others (plural) besides Abaddon have led Black Crusades. Having said that, there can't be many others because it says 'once or twice in a millennium'. Ten millenia since the HH, a max of 20 Black Crusades, 13 of them were led by Abaddon.

 

That was the only thing I could find on Black Crusades.

 

 

The current C:SM doesn't mention the Astartes Praeses at all, although the map of the distribution of the SM Chapters on pg 30/31 has a box titled 'Eye of Terror Containment' that shows a list of 'Star Fort Garrison Allocation' for several Chapters, a few of which are also on CG's list. The list includes: Exorcists, Silver Skulls, Star Dragons, Dark Sons, Relictors, White Templars, Subjugators and Blood Swords. However, it also includes the Imperial Fists, who I'm pretty certain aren't Praeses, so this may or may not be helpful.

 

The map also mentions the White Consuls fighting in the area so that’s a bit more evidence for them being Praeses too!

 

 

Anyway, any further info/resources (as Ferrus said, with citations) anyone can provide would be a great help!

 

Thanks

 

Lysimachus

[Allerka]

Well, the White Consuls are confirmed as being a Praeses Chapter in Dark Creed, so there's that. I believe it also said the Black Consuls were one as well, but they were wiped out.

[Octavulg]

Liber Chaotica: Khorne apparently has a lot on Black Crusades.

 

I'll look through some of my older Epic stuff and 40K stuff to see if anything of note is mentioned. ;)

[Ferrus Manus]

A list of Chapters of the Praeses from Dark Creed:

• Marines Exemplar (pg74)
  
• Iron Talons (pg74)
  
• Brothers Penitent (pg74)
  
• Knights Unyielding (pg75)
  
• Crimson Scythes (pg75)
  
• White Consuls (pg75)
  
• Subjagators (pg82)
  

 

And :

 

Once there had been twenty Chapters of the Adeptus Praeses; now there were eighteen. The Archenemy had annihilated one and, more shocking still, another had been branded Excommunicate Traitoris.

 

My bet is on the Black Consuls being the destroyed Chapter, and weren't the Relictors declared Excommunicate?

[Dosjetka]

and weren't the Relictors declared Excommunicate?

Yes, they were, though I can't recall when.

 

Ludovic

[Octavulg]

That may have been retconned, though. IIRC, the Relictors are still mentioned in C:SM without any mention of their renegade issues.

[Lysimachus]

weren't the Relictors declared Excommunicate?

 

They were in a short fiction piece where the GK attack their Fortress Monastery, but the current C:SM has either retconned this or gone backwards in time to just before they were excommunicated at which point they were just being closely watched. However, having said that, it does seem likely that it would be them that are being referred to in Dark Creed.

 

Edit: :D :P

[Dosjetka]

That may have been retconned, though. IIRC, the Relictors are still mentioned in C:SM without any mention of their renegade issues.

They are put down, in one word, as "shifty" and I think the even mention an Inquisitorial investigation, I'll have to read through C:SM again.

 

Ludovic

 

Edit: I should get my brain working some day soon :D

[Ecritter]

According to the Lexicanum, they were sent on a penance crusade for using Chaos weapons.

 

Unfortunately it didn't take long for the rest of the Imperium to discover their use of Chaos weaponry in warfare. A cell of Inquisitors, four Chapter Masters and an Emperor Class Battleship descended on the Relictors Fortress Monastery and they were forced to hand over all relics and De Marche and take on a century long penance crusade. De Marche was executed as a heretic and as part of their crusade, the entire chapter (all 10 companies) were deployed to Armageddon in the Equatorial Jungles, especially around Angron's monolith.

 

However, after completing that, they still had problem and were almost wiped out and declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

 

Continued conflict with the Inquisition during the 13th Black Crusade resulted in them being declared Excommunicate Traitoris and were all but destroyed by the Grey Knights under the command of Inquisitor Cyarro. Only a few hundred now remain, it is suspected that these survivors have fled to the relative safety of the Eye of Terror.

 

The article can be found here.

[Octavulg]

True. The problem is that the most recent mention of them talks about them as loyalists under suspicion, or somesuch.

 

So it's a little questionable whether they're still excommunicated, or if it ever 'happened'.

[Tyrannicide]

True. The problem is that the most recent mention of them talks about them as loyalists under suspicion, or somesuch.

 

So it's a little questionable whether they're still excommunicated, or if it ever 'happened'.

Exactly. The latest description of the Relictors details them as on the edge.

 

The Inquisition has become suspicious that the Relictors are developing an unhealthy fascination with tainted artifacts. As a result, they have requested that other Space Marine Chapters keep close watch upon the Relictors' activities lest they turn Renegade.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Just thought it's interesting that it's clear that others (plural) besides Abaddon have led Black Crusades. Having said that, there can't be many others because it says 'once or twice in a millennium'. Ten millenia since the HH, a max of 20 Black Crusades, 13 of them were led by Abaddon.

 

That was the only thing I could find on Black Crusades.

 

BL's Tactica Imperialis contains an expedition by a Jihar the Lacerator which is clearly referred to as a Black Crusade. Lexicanum gives the date as 599.M37, but since I don't have the original source I can't confirm that. It is the fourth campaign of four contained in the book, if that helps.

[Lysimachus]

Thanks Tyrak, does anyone have the original to confirm the date?

 

Also, was looking through the C:CSM again, on pg 36 (Khorne Berzerkers) it has a box on the 'Dominion of Fire' in the mid-38th Millenium where Angron led an army of fifty thousand Berzerkers out of the EoT and they rampaged over three dozen star systems for nearly two hundred years. They were followed by numerous other warbands and it took 4 SM Chapters, 2 Titan Legions and over 30 IG regiments around 7 centuries to cleanse all the worlds across seventy Sectors that fell during this time.

 

It doesn't say it specifically, but that sounds like a Black Crusade to me. Plus, if anyone's going to lead one other than Abaddon, surely the Primarch of the World Eaters has gotta be high up on the list!

[Ferrus Manus]

It doesn't say it specifically, but that sounds like a Black Crusade to me.

True, but didn't you just say it was called the Dominion of Fire rather than titled a Black Crusade? Or did I interpret that wrong?

[Brother Tyler]

Confirming that Tactica Imperialis includes information on "The Black Crusade of Jihar the Lacerator" dated 599.M36 (starting on page 71).

 

And to expand on the information about Black Crusades described in Liber Chaotica...

• The Host of Tallomine - This apparently took part during the Age of Apostasy and was led by a Daemon Prince named Tallomin. The "Wolf Warriors" (Space Wolves?) were involved.
  
• The Tide of Blood - Led by the Daemon Prince, Doombreed. Basically a declaration of war against the Adeptus [Astartes]. The Warhawks and Venerators Chapters are "lost" as a result of the Black Crusade, though Doombreed was defeated.
  
• The First Struggle for the Heart of Armageddon - This was led by Angron in 40,499.M41 (per The Battle for Armageddon by BL) and is fairly well documented (I'm just adding it here to be sure we included it as a Black Crusade)
  

I have the hardback compilation, but this information is the same as presented in the individual book on Khorne.

 

It doesn't say it specifically, but that sounds like a Black Crusade to me.

True, but didn't you just say it was called the Dominion of Fire rather than titled a Black Crusade? Or did I interpret that wrong?

Well, Black Crusades can easily be called something other than a "Black Crusade". For example, (one of) Doombreed's Black Crusade(s) was called the "Tide of Blood". If Angron's attack on Armageddon can be classified as a Black Crusade, then the Dominion of Fire, something that took place on a far larger scale and for much longer, is most likely also a Black Crusade.

[Lysimachus]

Thanks Tyler, that's exactly the kind of stuff we're looking for!

 

Ferrus: Yep, you understood correctly, it just calls it the Dominion of Fire in the 'dex, nothing specific about being a Black Crusade; but as Bro Tyler said, logic suggests it probably would have been?

[Ferrus Manus]

Ferrus: Yep, you understood correctly, it just calls it the Dominion of Fire in the 'dex, nothing specific about being a Black Crusade; but as Bro Tyler said, logic suggests it probably would have been?

Seems like a good shout.

[Heru]

True. The problem is that the most recent mention of them talks about them as loyalists under suspicion, or somesuch.

 

So it's a little questionable whether they're still excommunicated, or if it ever 'happened'.

I think it is more a case of Matt Ward not being up to date (note his constant re-use of 2nd Ed material in his Codices) or trying to keep the Chapter as viable for use with Codex SM.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Not to add to your burden, but I just thought of something. Both Medusa and the ruin of Caliban are fairly close to the Eye; are the Iron Hands and Dark Angels considered members of the Praeses? Obviously not created specifically for that purpose, but possibly grand-fathered in due to their proximity? I've never heard of them being referred to that way, but it does make a certain amount of sense. . .

[Dosjetka]

Both Medusa and the ruin of Caliban are fairly close to the Eye; are the Iron Hands and Dark Angels considered members of the Praeses? Obviously not created specifically for that purpose, but possibly grand-fathered in due to their proximity? I've never heard of them being referred to that way, but it does make a certain amount of sense. . .

Nice thought. Could be right, but what d'you mean by "grand-fathered"?

 

Ludovic

[Octavulg]

Wikipedia link

 

Though in this case the meaning isn't 100% in line with the original meaning of the term. Basically, the IH and DA might count as Praeses, despite pre-existing the formation of the Praeses.

 

More a grandsonning in, really. B)

[Hrvat]

Considering how White Consuls are Praesas and they are second founding there is no reason to exclude the DA or IH for the simple fact that they were not marked as such in the Eye of Terror codex.

[Codex Grey]

Considering how White Consuls are Praesas and they are second founding there is no reason to exclude the DA or IH for the simple fact that they were not marked as such in the Eye of Terror codex.

Yes, there is a reason. The DA and IH were not founded with the express purpose of guarding the regions around the Eye of Terror, they were First Founding Legions. The White Consuls, on the other hand, were specifically tasked with guarding the Eye from the start. The Iron Hands and Dark Angels, in addition to the Space Wolves, play a big role in the defense around the Eye, but I think we can conclude that they do not fall under the 20 Chapters of the Astartes Praeses.

 

From what I can gather from this thread, 10 Chapter of the Praeses have been named, leaving half of them unnamed. 1 of these unnamed Chapters has been destroyed and 1 has been declared Excommunicate. Another possibility is that the latter may be the Relictors and the former may be the Black Consuls.

 

It's also worth mentioning that the C:SM Galaxy Map is kinda stupid. According to the map, the White Consuls' homeworld is located in Segmentum Pasificus and the Subjugators' in Segmentum Solar. Worse still, the Marines Exemplar are on the other side of the Galaxy in Segmentum Tempestus.

[Brother Tyler]

Yes, I would be very cautious about adding anyone/thing to any list for which it isn't explicitly qualified, or even hinted at, in the official background material. While a number of Chapters might be close to the Eye of Terror, if they haven't been expressly included in listings of Chapters that are part of the Praeses, the most we might do is indicate that their proximity to the Eye of Terror makes them candidates to fill the slots for which Chapters have not been named.

 

However, to counter the argument: "The DA and IH were not founded with the express purpose of guarding the regions around the Eye of Terror, they were First Founding Legions. The White Consuls, on the other hand, were specifically tasked with guarding the Eye from the start." The DA and IH are not properly "First Founding". The First Founding were the Legions. When the Second Founding took place, the Legions were broken down into Chapters. For each of the loyalist Legions, one Chapter retained the name and heraldry of the First Founding Legion. So all of the so-called "First Founding Chapters" are actually Second Founding Chapters. The other Second Founding Chapters have just as much of a pedigree and claim to direct lineage as those Chapters that retained the names of their parent Legions. It's entirely possible that any of the Second Founding Chapters might have been Praeses - we already have one in the White Consuls so it's not unreasonable for any of the other Chapters, including those that retained the names of the Legions, to have been similarly charged with watching the Eye of Terror. They might or they might not. We can speculate either way, but we have to be very clear in identifying that we are speculating. It's not unknown for Games Workshop to come up with stuff that didn't exist before, or to radically change stuff from previous incarnations (e.g., the Mentors changing from RT to now; the Squats being ret-conned out of the game or into the Demiurg; the Tiger Claws of RT becoming the Astral Claws in 2nd edition, and then becoming a successor of the Astral Claws that were absorbed into the parent Chapter in IA9; etc.). If I were going to speculate, I would say that the IH have a much higher chance of being among the Praeses than the Dark Angels. It's also entirely possible that both were among the Praeses and that the Dark Angels' focus on their Hunt for the Fallen and lack of reliability in performing their Praeses duties is a large part of the suspicion in which the High Lords hold the sons of Lion El'Jonson. It's all speculation, however, until GW gives us something concrete.

 

But I would definitely steer away from making any suggestions about the un-named Chapters that goes beyond the speculative in its level of credibility.

 

Note that all of this goes equally well for Black Crusades, so while Angron's actions on Armageddon might have been a Black Crusade, if it hasn't been explicitly named as such we need to proceed with caution in if/how we include it in a listing of Black Crusades.