Couple of rules queries in preparation for the UK GT.

[Iron Father Rik]

Hi guys,

 

I've been feverently preparing my Sons of Medusa for the UK "Throne of Skulls" GT next weekend, painting frantically and trying to get as many practice games in as I can. The other night a couple of, albeit minor, queries came up that I thought I would ask the esteemed brothers and sisters of the B&C to clarify today. Forgive me if these are obvious questions, I went to my girlfriend's last night after gaming and am now in university, so I don't have access to my rulebook.

 

1. First of all, if a Mk 1 Razorback with a lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun turret suffers a weapon destroyed result, what happens? Does it lose the whole turret assembly, or does it just lose one of the two weapons - i.e. either the lascannon or the plasma guns?

 

2. Not actually relevant to my army, but to one of my friends: (And forgive me if this topic has come up before, as I suspect it might well have) If you have a squad of 10 scouts and a Land Speeder Storm, and you wish to combat squad them, with 5 in the Storm and 5 on foot, is it permissible to deploy the 5 on foot on the table, and keep the 5 in the Storm in reserve to outflank later in the game? Or do they all have to be deployed/kept in reserve, and then combat squad during deployment/arrival on the board respectively?

 

Thanks guys. Can't think of anything else right now, but if I have other queries I later I will just add them to this thread so the answers are all in one place for my reference. I want to make sure I am clued up on the rules and procedures thoroughly before the weekend, so apologies for any stupid questions!

 

Brother Rik

[shatter]

apologies for any stupid questions!

 

No such thing as stupid questions here, bud. Only stupid answers and if mine qualify, I hope I am corrected.

 

1, two weapon systems, unlike a hurricane bolter (sponson) which has a single profile for multiple boltguns. (2 weapon profiles = 2 weapons)

 

2, combat squadding (at least in C:BA) happens at deployment, ie, they must arrive same time via same method; table edge, deep strike or whatever applicable. If they don't go in the transport, it may enter play separately.

[Iron Father Rik]

1, two weapon systems, unlike a hurricane bolter (sponson) which has a single profile for multiple boltguns. (2 weapon profiles = 2 weapons)

 

That's what I was hoping for. That way if the lascannon is destroyed I still get my plasmas, or vice versa. That's the way I thought it was, but I had considered that some people might argue the whole turret is destroyed (though nothing explicitly states in the codex that both those guns have to be on the same mount, or even on the same place on the tank!).

 

I would still be interested to hear any other arguements for and against this though.

 

2, combat squadding (at least in C:BA) happens at deployment, ie, they must arrive same time via same method; table edge, deep strike or whatever applicable. If they don't go in the transport, it may enter play separately.

 

So you are saying he must either keep the whole squad in reserve, in which case they will all outflank with, potentially, some walking on and some in the transport, or he must deploy them all on the table in deployment, again with some on foot and some in the transport potentially? That's the way I also thought it worked, but my friend runs 4 snipers and a heavy bolter in one combat squad, with the others with bolters in the Storm, and opts to deploy the heavy weapons on the table and keep the Storm and the remaining 5 in reserve. I didn't think he was allowed to do that though, and suggested he just makes them two seperate 5-man squads to avoid any problems.

[shatter]

Yip. That's what I'm saying.

[Tanhausen]

I'm not positive but... can you buy the lasscannon and TL plasma separately? If the answer is no... then I'd say they are the same weapon.

[Iron Father Rik]

I'm not positive but... can you buy the lasscannon and TL plasma separately? If the answer is no... then I'd say they are the same weapon.

 

You buy the Razorback, which comes with twin-linked Heavy Bolters, then the options are to swap the Heavy Bolters for avariety of weapons, including

 

"- Lascannon and twin-linked plasma guns"

[AdamR]

They are two seperate weapons.

@Tanhausen - you cant buy sponsons seperately, but you wouldnt take both off with one weapon destroyed result.

[Tanhausen]

Because sponsons are taken into account separately for everything, including how many weapons you can shoot.

 

Question: if a RB moves 6 inches he can shoot...

 

a.- Both LC and TLPC

b.- Only 1

 

If answer is a, then its a single weapon.

 

If answer is b, then they are 2 separate weapons.

 

Of course, I might be wrong, but I know BnC will correct me then :P

[JamesI]

Because sponsons are taken into account separately for everything, including how many weapons you can shoot.

 

Question: if a RB moves 6 inches he can shoot...

 

a.- Both LC and TLPC

b.- Only 1

 

If answer is a, then its a single weapon.

 

If answer is b, then they are 2 separate weapons.

 

Of course, I might be wrong, but I know BnC will correct me then :P

The the razorback moves 6 (and assuming its not a Blood Angels fast razorback) it can only shoot 1 of the 2 guns. They are separate weapon systems.

[Iron Father Rik]

Because sponsons are taken into account separately for everything, including how many weapons you can shoot.

 

Question: if a RB moves 6 inches he can shoot...

 

a.- Both LC and TLPC

b.- Only 1

 

If answer is a, then its a single weapon.

 

If answer is b, then they are 2 separate weapons.

 

Of course, I might be wrong, but I know BnC will correct me then :)

The the razorback moves 6 (and assuming its not a Blood Angels fast razorback) it can only shoot 1 of the 2 guns. They are separate weapon systems.

 

Right, that's cool, that's the way I thought the weapons worked, though evidently some people may consider it differently.

 

@Tanhausen - Thank you, your question there that JamesI answered was something I hadn't considered actually. I think in my last game I may have moved and fired both weapons without considering that! Best not make that mistake in the tournament!

 

You do buy both the weapon systems together in replacement of the twin-linked heavy bolters, however it does not state that they are both one weapon or, more likely two weapon systems. It also does not state that they (or any of the RB weapons for that matter) must be turret mounted on the back of the tank, nor does it state that the lascannon and the plasma guns must be mounted together, or on the same part of the tank. Therefore I would consider them seperate weapons, as I could very easily model a lascannon on the turret the the plasma guns protruding from the hull, or in place of where a storm bolter goes on a rhino for example.

[ignavus]

I remember the razorback weapons being adressed in the Space Marine Faq, which seems to be unavailable currently.

Going from memory, it was classed as 2 weapons, but cannot back that up currently.

[AdamR]

Therefore I would consider them seperate weapons, as I could very easily model a lascannon on the turret the the plasma guns protruding from the hull, or in place of where a storm bolter goes on a rhino for example.

 

 

Thats how I have my Imperial Fists rhino set up - single lascannon turret at the back and a twin linked plasmagun on the storm bolter cupola.

[Legatus]

So you are saying he must either keep the whole squad in reserve, in which case they will all outflank with, potentially, some walking on and some in the transport

That is not possible. If the complete squad is said to be held in reserve inside their transport, then tehy have to enter the table inside that transport, in which case they cannot be divided into combat squads. They have to be deployed as one. You also cannot decide to put one combat squad in reserve inside a transport and the other combat squad in reserve by themselves, because at that point you do not declare combat squads.

You either keep them out of the transport, in which case you can decide to split them into combat squads when they become available, or you put them inside a transport, in qhich case you cannot split them. The only exceptions are drop pods, where you are allowed to split them into combat squads upon disembarking from the pod.

[Tanhausen]

IIRC, you could also deploy the 10 scouts... 5 in the LSS and 5 infiltrating (for example). Just like you would do with any assignated transport.

 

Is that correct?

[Iron Father Rik]

IIRC, you could also deploy the 10 scouts... 5 in the LSS and 5 infiltrating (for example). Just like you would do with any assignated transport.

 

Is that correct?

 

Yeah I believe that is allowed, as long as they are deployed during the deployment phase. I wanted to clarify that you can't split them with some in reserve and some on the table like he did. To do that you need to have them as two seperate squads.

[Tanhausen]

So everything sorted out...I'll e-mail you my address so you can send me the GT 1st position prize :lol:

[bystrom]

Besides one situation (see bottom) which I'm not certain how it would play out these are the different deployments you can do with a 10-man scout squad and a LSS:

• Deploy scout squad and LSS as normal (the scout squad can combat-squad, in which case one of them can deploy in the LSS)
  
• Deploy one of the two (scout squad or LSS) in reserve/outflank while deploying the other as normal (the scout squad can combat-squad as normal but cannot in any way deploy in the LSS)
  
• Deploy both squads in reserve or both outflank. The scout squad can combat squad once deployed (when arriving from reserve/outflank) but cannot start in the LSS as it combat squads when deployed, while declaring scouts to be starting in the LSS is done before the first turn.
  
• Deploy one squad (scout squad or LSS) in reserve and the other outflanks. The scout squad can combat squad once deployed (when arriving from reserve/outflank) but cannot start in the LSS as it combat squads when deployed, while declaring scouts to be starting in the LSS is done before the first turn.
  

 

EDIT: As the above might be misunderstood, I'm clarifying, the two squads I'm talking about above are the scout squad and the LSS. So if I'm saying one of the two I mean either the scout squad or the LSS. I've also changed the text in the list, hopefully its more clear now.

 

 

Now for the situation I'm unsure about. Deploying the LSS normally and infiltrating the scouts. Can you deploy one combat squad in the LSS? The infiltrate rule says: "... may be set up anywhere on the table that is [... inches away from enemy]" and "This includes inside a building as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit".

On the other hand, it seems quite clear-cut: "If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate."

 

Does that mean scouts can't infiltrate and have one combat squad start in the LSS? Does that mean that the combat squad deployed in the LSS can't infiltrate (which doesn't matter) while the other one can? Judging by the last quote, I'd say the squad can't infiltrate and start one combat squad in the LSS. The going would be, declare if the scout squad infiltrates or not. Combat squad upon deploying via infiltration. As both units are infiltrating (even though you want one of them to deploy inside your own deployment zone), none of them can deploy inside the LSS as that would conflict with the last quote.

[Iron Father Rik]

Now for the situation I'm unsure about. Deploying the LSS normally and infiltrating the scouts. Can you deploy one combat squad in the LSS? The infiltrate rule says: "... may be set up anywhere on the table that is [... inches away from enemy]" and "This includes inside a building as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit".

On the other hand, it seems quite clear-cut: "If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate."

 

Does that mean scouts can't infiltrate and have one combat squad start in the LSS? Does that mean that the combat squad deployed in the LSS can't infiltrate (which doesn't matter) while the other one can? Judging by the last quote, I'd say the squad can't infiltrate and start one combat squad in the LSS. The going would be, declare if the scout squad infiltrates or not. Combat squad upon deploying via infiltration. As both units are infiltrating (even though you want one of them to deploy inside your own deployment zone), none of them can deploy inside the LSS as that would conflict with the last quote.

 

I would approach this situation as they cannot deploy in the LSS when infiltrating. However, what you can do is depoly one combat squad near the enemy as infiltrators, then deploy the other combat squad near the already deployed LSS. Then use the scout's scout move to embark the LSS and then use the LSS scout move to move (i.e. turbo-boost) into a new position. Then on turn one you can do as you wish.

[shatter]

WHOOOPS!

 

legatus is right.

 

TBH I didn't read your statement properly. I blame myself almost totally and my gf nagging at the time a little bit.

[SeattleDV8]

So you are saying he must either keep the whole squad in reserve, in which case they will all outflank with, potentially, some walking on and some in the transport, or he must deploy them all on the table in deployment, again with some on foot and some in the transport potentially? That's the way I also thought it worked, but my friend runs 4 snipers and a heavy bolter in one combat squad, with the others with bolters in the Storm, and opts to deploy the heavy weapons on the table and keep the Storm and the remaining 5 in reserve. I didn't think he was allowed to do that though, and suggested he just makes them two seperate 5-man squads to avoid any problems.

Not quite, If you place the unit in a transport in reserves it has to be the entire unit.

You cannot split the unit into combat squads when placing them in reserve as they combat squad 'when deployed'

BRB pg. 94 "...may choose not to deploy one or more of units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

So a unit embarked could not split when deployed as they are embarked.(Drop Pods are the exception)

[SeattleDV8]

Besides one situation (see bottom) which I'm not certain how it would play out these are the different deployments you can do with a 10-man scout squad and a LSS:

[*]Deploy scout squad and LSS as normal (the scout squad can combat-squad, in which case one of them can deploy in the LSS)

yes this is fine

[*]Deploy one of the two in reserve/outflank while deploying the other as normal (the scout squad can combat-squad as normal but cannot in any way deploy in the LSS)

No, you either deploy or place in reserve the entire unit.

[*]Deploy both squads in reserve/outflank. The scout squad can combat squad once deployed (when arriving from reserve/outflank) but cannot start in the LSS as it combat squads when deployed, while declaring scouts to be starting in the LSS is done before the first turn.

yes.

[*]Deploy one squad in reserve and the other outflanks. The scout squad can combat squad once deployed (when arriving from reserve/outflank) but cannot start in the LSS as it combat squads when deployed, while declaring scouts to be starting in the LSS is done before the first turn.

No the unit is either in reserves or is outflanking

Now for the situation I'm unsure about. Deploying the LSS normally and infiltrating the scouts. Can you deploy one combat squad in the LSS? The infiltrate rule says: "... may be set up anywhere on the table that is [... inches away from enemy]" and "This includes inside a building as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit".

On the other hand, it seems quite clear-cut: "If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate."

 

Does that mean scouts can't infiltrate and have one combat squad start in the LSS? Does that mean that the combat squad deployed in the LSS can't infiltrate (which doesn't matter) while the other one can? Judging by the last quote, I'd say the squad can't infiltrate and start one combat squad in the LSS. The going would be, declare if the scout squad infiltrates or not. Combat squad upon deploying via infiltration. As both units are infiltrating (even though you want one of them to deploy inside your own deployment zone), none of them can deploy inside the LSS as that would conflict with the last quote.

No but not for the reason you are wondering about.

You can deploy the unit during deployment but not hold half for infiltrating

What you could do is deploy the Storm, then infiltrate the scouts , combat squad half where-ever and the other half by the Storm.

I don't believe you can embark in the 'scout move' though.

[Iron Father Rik]

[*]Deploy one of the two in reserve/outflank while deploying the other as normal (the scout squad can combat-squad as normal but cannot in any way deploy in the LSS)

No, you either deploy or place in reserve the entire unit.

 

I think what Bystrom by "one of the two" was one of either the Scout squad, or the Land Speeder Storm. He did not mean one of the two combat squads.

 

 

[*]Deploy one squad in reserve and the other outflanks. The scout squad can combat squad once deployed (when arriving from reserve/outflank) but cannot start in the LSS as it combat squads when deployed, while declaring scouts to be starting in the LSS is done before the first turn.

No the unit is either in reserves or is outflanking

 

Again, Bystrom meant keep the Scouts in reserve and the Land Speeder outflanking, or vice versa.

[SeattleDV8]

Fair enough, It could be read that way, and would be correct.

[bystrom]

What you could do is deploy the Storm, then infiltrate the scouts , combat squad half where-ever and the other half by the Storm.

I don't believe you can embark in the 'scout move' though.

 

I've edited my original post as I was indeed talking about the Scout Squad and the LSS as the two units. More importantly, why couldn't you embark in the 'scout move'? The scout move is conducted like a normal move and a normal move allows you to embark (and disembark for that matter). Or?

 

As a side note, wouldn't this mean you would be able to infiltrate both scout combat squads in such a way as to take up large portions of the board, thus hindering enemy scout moves, then scout move the LSS next to one of your combat scout squad, then scout this scout squad into the LSS.

[Iron Father Rik]

As a side note, wouldn't this mean you would be able to infiltrate both scout combat squads in such a way as to take up large portions of the board, thus hindering enemy scout moves, then scout move the LSS next to one of your combat scout squad, then scout this scout squad into the LSS.

 

Yes, I do believe that would be possible. I can't think of any rule off the top of my head that prevents that. It would hinder enemy infiltration though, not enemy scout moves, but I know what you meant.

 

Not that it matters which way round you did it, but if you infiltrate the scouts next to the LSS and then move the Storm, rather than the other way around, you would be able to turbo boost the Storm during the scout move and thereby gain a cover save if the enemy has turn 1.