Long fangs vs devastators?

[Canis Majoris]

Ok...

 

Devastators get the extra 5 models to remove before losing heavy weapons...long fangs dont...

 

So what do you guys do to ensure your long fangs stay alive and shooting for more than 1,2 turns? cos they seem to allways get targeted first.

[thade]

Ok...

 

Devastators get the extra 5 models to remove before losing heavy weapons...long fangs dont...

 

So what do you guys do to ensure your long fangs stay alive and shooting for more than 1,2 turns? cos they seem to allways get targeted first.

 

You stick them in deep cover and present the enemy with more pressing targets (large numbers of melee terminators, scary ICs, Vindicators). =)

[Jackelope King]

Ok...

 

Devastators get the extra 5 models to remove before losing heavy weapons...long fangs dont...

 

So what do you guys do to ensure your long fangs stay alive and shooting for more than 1,2 turns? cos they seem to allways get targeted first.

They always seem to get targeted first for two reasons:

1. They actually are VERY good for the price. Cheapest heavy weapons squad on foot in Marine Codices. Split fire is unbelieveably good standard on a cheap heavy weapons squad on foot. It lets them pour missiles into one transport, then turn its fire to another after the first target is sufficiently wrecked. In terms of shooting, Long Fangs are two squads in one by working around the rule of being able to potentially kill two units in one turn of shooting.
   
2. They're one of the few threats Space Wolves have on turn 1. The enemy's job is to eliminate threats, so they're a natural place to start. The enemy can wait for your Gray Hunters to slog their way across the field, but he Long Fangs can be shooting right from the word "go".
   

 

So how do you protect your Long Fangs?

1. Location, location, location. Hide them behind tank chasis you intend to pull out to midfield on turn 1, or position them such that the enemy backfield can't target them, but they can target midfield, where the enemy needs to go.
   
2. Spam. Take 3 units of them. Then see how worried you are when your opponent kills 3 models on turn 1.
   
3. More threats. Get more units on the table that provide an immediate threat to your opponent. For Space Wolves, that's usually fast and deadly assault units like Thunderwolf Cavalry. Force your opponent to decide between putting shots into your Thunderwolf threats which will wreck any exposed infantry or your Long Fangs which will eat his light armor.
   

[Hellios]

With my current list I'm running I'm yet to have my long fangs taken out... although the Eldar player could have, he decided other units were bigger threats (The long fangs killed 2 aspect warrior... on the last turn of the game.. it was DoW) like... more space wolves than he had eldar about to hit him in combat.

 

I've had them do lots of nasty stuff in other games... but what people have said is pretty good advice... stick them in a bush/building somewhere... if you are worried about out flank then in the middle... if not then anywhere... Have them positioned somewhere they can either shoot the enemy or shoot where the enemy has to go... or you expect them to go... Park something in front of them to block LoS like JK said... if I'm honest with good target priority and a bit of luck it can be pretty easy to make your points back in one round of shooting...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You can include a WG to eat shots.

 

If you give him TDA, if he makes one save, you've nearly made his points back. More saves is very good.

You can give him a CML, but that seems a bit risky to me ~ he is made for taking hits yet you are inflating his price....

 

If you have a Pod and they occupants are made for killing enemy Devs, deploy your Fangs out of reach of his ones, thereby avoiding a dual. Your Fangs kill his transports and then your Pod takes care of his Devs.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I tend to drop pod scary units like dreads and other uber death units while having another force come across the board in rhinos. You don't want to be shooting at some long fangs when you have that in your face.

[Captain Idaho]

Devastators just aren't a popular choice and unfortunately it took GW several years to work out it was because their heavy weapons were extortionately costed and people were just going elsewhere. Long Fangs win out every time in a comparison based purely on that.

 

If you compare Devastators based upon Blood Angel points costs with Long Fangs it does become slightly more difficult to choose a more effective choice. One is a cost efficient way of getting much needed heavy firepower into an army, while the other is a great bastion unit able to lay down fire from afar and survive enemy reprisals better, whilst also having the flexibility of being able to combat squad.

 

Personally I would prefer the Devastators in this situation as it a safer investment.

[breng77]

The problem with buying "wounds" for devastators is you are basically paying 80 points for models who's only job is to die (that is if you want a full squad to be able to combat squad.) Long fangs can also take more heavy weapons in their squad than DEVs (5 vs 4). In the case where most people are taking 3 LF squads the DEV either have to be 5-6 man squads to be competitive price wise (if they are BA DEVs).

 

Lets look at DEVs VS LF from a points perspective.

 

CSM DEVs

 

5 Man squad with 4 ML = 150 points

6 man squad w/ 4 ML = 166

10 man squad w 4 ML = 230

 

DA DEVs

5 Man squad with 4 ML = 170 points

6 man squad w/ 4 ML = not an option

10 man squad w 4 ML = 245

 

BA DEVs

5 Man squad with 4 ML = 130 points

6 man squad w/ 4 ML = 146

10 man squad w 4 ML = 210

 

LF Squad

5 Man squad with 4 ML = 115 points

6 man squad w/ 5 ML = 140

10 man squad w 9 ML = not an option

 

 

Looking at this the only advantage other DEV squads have is if you buy more than 6 guys and then only for wounds. However if you are going to take 3 squads, Larger squads become a worse option as 3 10 man squads are at the cheapest 630 points which is a sizable chunk of your army. VS 3 x 6 LF which only amount to 420 points.

 

Also consider the argument for loss of effectiveness, Either the DEV squad is a lot more expensive or that argument is void.

 

Lets look at 6 man squads from BA and SW

 

I have 6 BA DEVS at 146 points (6 points more than 6 LFs) I take a Casualty, and lose my naked marine first. I have lost nothing, can still fire 4 Rockets and use my Signum if I want to.

 

6 LF take a casualty I lose my Sargent and can no longer split fire. This is a loss of effectiveness for the LFs, however I am still better than the DEVs since I can fire 5 Missiles vs your 4

 

At casualty #2 BA lose their Sargent and his signum, but still have 4 ML shots. LF lose a ML, but still have 4 ML shots. We are now equally effective with 4 ML shots each.

 

The squads will remain equally effective until both are dead assuming they take casualties at the same rate.

 

In order to ensure more durability the BA player has to have at least 7 Marines (162 points) which is 22 points per squad more expensive than LF. However, the LFs could simply add a WG to the squad for 4 points less than that. So really You need at least an 8 man squad to be better (178 points). At which point you have added 3 models who serve no purpose except to die.

[Canis Majoris]

Thanks for the info guys

 

I play against BA most of the time sometimes SM, i like the idea of 3 x 6 squads with 5 ML's each...but i never do a battle without facing a terminator squad or 2...sometimes 3...so would you say take maybe 3 launchers and 2 plasma cannons in each squad?

 

or maybe

 

6 long fangs

MLx3

PCx2

 

6 long fangs

MLx3

PCx1

LCx1

 

6 long fangs

MLx3

PCx1

LCx1

 

Also the previously mentioned deployment tactics? most of the time they will deploy at the back to make full use of the 48" range. but if they are say a plasma cannon squad and i want to get them to the middle of the table would it be best to stick them in a rhino or a razorback to throw down some fire on the move?

 

Or are razorbacks just a total waste of points?

[breng77]

It is generally a better idea to use other parts of your list to deal with termies, Plasma cannons overheat, are more expensive, and are not very good against vehicles (the primary target of Long fangs.) That said in my Logan Wing list I have 2 of my long fangs in 1 squad with Lascannons (to use with tank hunters if I run into AV 14.)

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with buying "wounds" for devastators is you are basically paying 80 points for models who's only job is to die (that is if you want a full squad to be able to combat squad.)

 

But why do you have to buy a full extra 5 models?

 

Using Blood Angels points costs (as that should be the future), you can get the following:

 

Devastator squad

• 2x extra Space Marines
  
• 2x Lascannons
  
• Plasma Cannon
  

Multi-Melta

 

= 197pts

 

That is amazingly useful. It gives good performance against every unit in the game barring hoard units and even can put a few wounds on hoard units in a useful supporting matter. It can take 3 kills before losing combat effectiveness.

 

The nearest comparable unit of Long Fangs is roughly the following:

 

Long Fangs pack

 

• x6 models
  
• 3x Lascannons
  
• Plasma Cannon
  
• Multi-melta
  

 

= 195pts

 

As you can see both units are very useful. Both have good long ranged power and are able to threaten all armoured units up to AV14. The Long Fangs have the edge against AV14 though as have an extra Lascannon. They can also split their fire which is useful sometimes with the Plasma Cannon.

 

However, if casualities start coming we see a swing towards the Devastators being competetive. The wound allocation rules are more problematic for Long Fangs as they can't control where the hits goe as well, and losing 4 models for the Long Fangs at best removes 3 Heavy weapons, whilst the same removes 1 for the Devastators.

 

But of course the 2 aren't as comparable as a direct comparison would show. Long Fangs are the only heavy weapon wielding infantry Space Wolves get whilst Devastators become even more useful in an army that has multiple heavy weapons in their infantry.

 

Strangely enough, Space Wolves should pay a premium for their Long Fangs seeing as they are the only unit that has heavy weapons. Devstators are in competetion with so much should be cheaper. Go figure. :tu: